E Tickets

[Watershed]

Therein lies another issue, an m-ticket isn't on paper!
An activated m-ticket has moving colours. A screenshot doesn't, therefore it would be deemed invalid.
Stick with e-tickets.

Plus some apps try to stop you from taking screenshots.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Seems a bit overkill

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not yet. Still under discussion.

Not expected anytime soon from what I heard this week

 

[yorkie]

Why?

@Deafdoggie and @Watershed have done a good job explaining why; there are also many threads either explaining the difference or highlighting problems that occurred with m-tickets.

I have never had any issue with e-tickets myself, and I don't personally know of anyone who has; there have been times when I have been travelling as a group and someone's phone was rebooting or something or they didn't have their ticket handy and I was able to show their ticket.

My only experience using an m-ticket (someone else bought it) wasn't great and I've had various issues with paper tickets too (issues relating to TOD collection are also well documented), including issues relating to collection, losing tickets, losing track of whether or not I've collected tickets, leaving them at work/home etc (not very often but it has happened and none of these can occur with e-tickets!)

Modern paper tickets (on ''till roll' stock) are effectively e-tickets but just printed for you and you don't get the option to create a backup.

e-tickets make delay repay or refund requests easier, and with split ticketing they make the whole process incredibly easy compared to the faff of m-tickets or paper tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

In most cases eTickets are the way forward we need to solve the cross London problem and discontinue mTickets and ToD.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seems a bit overkill

The whole m-ticket design was a nonsense from start to finish and the sooner they are discontinued the better and then hopefully we can get on with repairing the collateral damage m-tickets have done to the far superior e-ticket.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The whole m-ticket design was a nonsense from start to finish and the sooner they are discontinued the better and then hopefully we can get on with repairing the collateral damage m-tickets have done to the far superior e-ticket.

What was the rationale for their introduction?

 

[Watershed]

What was the rationale for their introduction?

There was a concern that people would share them and thus several people would be able to travel on one ticket. As time has gone on, better data sharing across the industry, better scanning software and the increasing adoption of scanners at barriers has allayed these concerns.

 

[gabrielhj07]

There was a concern that people would share them and thus several people would be able to travel on one ticket. As time has gone on, better data sharing across the industry, better scanning software and the increasing adoption of scanners at barriers has allayed these concerns.

I'd have thought that it wouldn't be too difficult for the system to remember that a ticket had been scanned, and not, for instance, accept the same ticket opening the same gate a few seconds later.

 

[Watershed]

I'd have thought that it wouldn't be too difficult for the system to remember that a ticket had been scanned, and not, for instance, accept the same ticket opening the same gate a few seconds later.

Well that's what I'd have thought. Clearly ScotRail remain convinced they're right and just about every other TOC is wrong!

 

[Deafdoggie]

The whole m-ticket design was a nonsense from start to finish and the sooner they are discontinued the better and then hopefully we can get on with repairing the collateral damage m-tickets have done to the far superior e-ticket.

Indeed. I once used an m-ticket years ago and it put me off mobile tickets. Only because of this forum did I realise the difference in e-tickets and now I only use them (when it's possible)

 

[317 forever]

I wonder whether the pdf file ticket has a unique barcode on them, a bit like National Express coach tickets?

If a train conductor sees an e-ticket from an "incorrect" TOC, ie a TOC that goes nowhere near that area of the country, I hope it does not cause any awkwardness.

 

[miklcct]

I wonder whether the pdf file ticket has a unique barcode on them, a bit like National Express coach tickets?

If a train conductor sees an e-ticket from an "incorrect" TOC, ie a TOC that goes nowhere near that area of the country, I hope it does not cause any awkwardness.

Yes, the barcode is the ticket.

 

[transportphoto]

I wonder whether the pdf file ticket has a unique barcode on them, a bit like National Express coach tickets?

Yes. Each ticket has a unique ticket number and associated encrypted Aztec code.

If a train conductor sees an e-ticket from an "incorrect" TOC, ie a TOC that goes nowhere near that area of the country, I hope it does not cause any awkwardness.

Absolutely not. Whilst the retailers logo is shown on the ticket, the retailer doesn’t matter. If it’s valid for the journey being undertaken, that’s all that matters.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Southeastern are not eTicket enthusiastic.

I'm pretty shocked at SE potentially accommodating this given their ultra right hard-line stance against them, though I suspect they may have had a gun held to their heads when if/when they agreed to it.

There are a few well known exceptions where E/M-tickets can be legitimatly tested onboard SE services and from experience most of their conductors couldn't give a monkeys fart about them and just say "yep, thanks" and carry on. There's a few examples obviously on services between Ashford and Tonbridge where you might legitimatly use an E-ticket in these circumstances like Marshlink from stations to Gatwick or similar where the route Edenbridge/Polegate is permitted and generally this is rarely a problem or any trouble for the passenger. Obviously during disruption on Southern when ticket acceptance is in place with SE then obviously again there's no issue.
The big problem I've experienced and others on here too have in past is when you start/end your journey short at either Hastings or Ashford and revenue staff on the gatelines are less than hospitiable to them. I got refused entry to Ashford with a return portion Rye to Durrington on Sea issued on GWRs app. I normally print my tickets out too but didn't on this occasion. They even tried citing the incorrect quote on the GWR app that states "break of journey not permitted"
In the end to save missing my train, which was hourly I just bought a super off peak single from Ashford to Durrington and immediately logged it as mis-selling on Barclaycard app and the transaction got blocked.
I read a similar instance on here where somebody at Hastings was refused exit from station to break journey.


Would an Anytime single/return any permitted route that's available as an E-ticket not be accepted by Merseyrail then?
Not got any desire to test this out but the walk up fare seems the same between Liverpool SP and Liverpool LS regardless of operator.

Southeastern do not have a say on what ticketing they use; they are contracted to DfT. The reason for their so-called 'hard line stance' was simply that e-ticketing had not been included in their contract, due to DfT's historic incapability in being able to manage the specification of a consistent digital ticketing policy across multiple franchises for many years. This has now changed, hence why the kit is now beginning to appear, but they are some way behind.

Both Scotrail and Merseyrail sit outside DfT specification - Merseyrail are oriented towards Merseytravel's specification; whilst Scotland does what Scotland wants (which one might cynically observe as often being 'anything so long as it's different from England').

Merseyrail really is a historical oddity - arguably it's inclusion in the 'National Rail' structure was more an accident of history rather than logic - the parallel is the Newcastle suburban rail network which is mainly ex-BR but which was through the late 70s and 80s transformed into a separate network and which sits outside National Rail.

 

[317 forever]

Yes. Each ticket has a unique ticket number and associated encrypted Aztec code.Absolutely not. Whilst the retailers logo is shown on the ticket, the retailer doesn’t matter. If it’s valid for the journey being undertaken, that’s all that matters.

Oh thank you. I now feel happier using e-ticket especially if it is for a through journey, as against a split ticket.

It also reduces the risk of a last-minute delay while we collect the tickets at the station.

 

[pelli]

The whole m-ticket design was a nonsense from start to finish and the sooner they are discontinued the better and then hopefully we can get on with repairing the collateral damage m-tickets have done to the far superior e-ticket.

What was the rationale for their introduction?

The various "features" of the M-ticket, namely locking it to be shown live in the app on a single device, no screenshots or printouts allowed, and forcing activation before boarding the train, serve a purpose: Allowing the ticket to be used offline and checked by eye alone with low risk of fraud. Of course, these make things more difficult for the user (just like almost any other security feature, such as ticket barriers at stations, security checks at airports and "unexpected item in bagging area"), not to mention the issues with incorrect implementations (e.g. M-tickets expiring prematurely), so now that ticket scanners are ubiquitous and provide similar protection against fraud, M-tickets should all be replaced by E-tickets instead, which are basically M-tickets but without the annoying security features.

But M-ticket-style tickets have worked very well for me, albeit on buses. A few years ago all the places I frequented accepted debit cards except the bus, which was cash only, so I had to regularly go to the cash machine and then reluctantly spend cash at a card-accepting place just to break the £20 notes into bus-acceptable pieces. When they introduced M-tickets, I immediately swapped over and never looked back: I just had to buy the ticket (standard single, valid throughout the city for an hour) in the app beforehand, activate it when the bus approaches, a quick glance by the driver (to check that the M-ticket was showing moving graphics and the correct secret code word for the day) and on I go, and as more people converted from cash to mobile, boarding at busy stops became noticeably faster. Also, I once visited a city abroad with cashless buses that only accepted their local bus card, and instead of having to find a ticket shop to buy this card I could simply buy a bunch of M-tickets via WiFi in the morning, and then activate as needed during the day. I have no doubt that if either of these bus companies had not introduced M-tickets, then the alternative would not have been E-tickets with scanners installed on every bus, but simply "tough luck". (Admittedly most buses are different to trains, because you just need the ticket to be valid when you get on, so there's no risk of a dead battery landing you with a penalty fare, and whereas installing ticket machines at all bus stops is unfeasible, in some regions you do have ticket machines at essentially all train stations.)

 

[Watershed]

Admittedly most buses are different to trains, because you just need the ticket to be valid when you get on

That's not the case. Ticket inspections can and do take place mid-journey on buses.

 

[Randomer]

But M-ticket-style tickets have worked very well for me, albeit on buses. A few years ago all the places I frequented accepted debit cards except the bus, which was cash only, so I had to regularly go to the cash machine and then reluctantly spend cash at a card-accepting place just to break the £20 notes into bus-acceptable pieces. When they introduced M-tickets, I immediately swapped over and never looked back: I just had to buy the ticket (standard single, valid throughout the city for an hour) in the app beforehand, activate it when the bus approaches, a quick glance by the driver (to check that the M-ticket was showing moving graphics and the correct secret code word for the day) and on I go, and as more people converted from cash to mobile, boarding at busy stops became noticeably faster. Also, I once visited a city abroad with cashless buses that only accepted their local bus card, and instead of having to find a ticket shop to buy this card I could simply buy a bunch of M-tickets via WiFi in the morning, and then activate as needed during the day. I have no doubt that if either of these bus companies had not introduced M-tickets, then the alternative would not have been E-tickets with scanners installed on every bus, but simply "tough luck". (Admittedly most buses are different to trains, because you just need the ticket to be valid when you get on, so there's no risk of a dead battery landing you with a penalty fare, and whereas installing ticket machines at all bus stops is unfeasible, in some regions you do have ticket machines at essentially all train stations.)

I'm not sure I'd say M-Tickets on buses have been entirely without problems. First certainly had an issue a few years ago where there back end provider ended up failing (a ransomware attack from memory) and no M-Tickets could be activated on there Android app. Took a couple of days for it to be completely resolved but people on that first day were definitely refused travel with perfectly valid tickets through no fault of there own. Effectively the customers were told "tough luck" as drivers weren't aware of the problem and the tickets just showed as not activated. By the evening First, at least in West Yorkshire, were effectively allowing free travel to prevent further reputational damage.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That's not the case. Ticket inspections can and do take place mid-journey on buses.

Indeed. But if the ticket was correctly "scanned" on entrance then it's recorded in the ticket machine so the inspector can check that.

 

[pelli]

That's not the case. Ticket inspections can and do take place mid-journey on buses.

Perhaps my bus travel experience is lacking. I do know to expect inspections in London, but I've also travelled on buses with only a front door so no potential of sneaking on (but I do understand bus ticket inspections also serve to ensure bus drivers are not pocketing the fares themselves, or letting their mates ride for free), and a large fraction of cash-paying people immediately binning their ticket *before* sitting down, so clearly there was an expectation to not be inspected.

Indeed. But if the ticket was correctly "scanned" on entrance then it's recorded in the ticket machine so the inspector can check that.

In this context, we're talking about M-tickets being checked by eyeball, so it would have to rely on the driver remembering you. (Edit: And you would of course be able to prove afterwards that you did have an activated ticket at the time of boarding. Just hope the bus inspector doesn't charge you £100 for "costs of the investigation"...)

I'm not sure I'd say M-Tickets on buses have been entirely without problems.

I always kept a spare bus fare in cash for this reason, but at least I never needed to use it, rather than having to replenish it every day!

 

[Deafdoggie]

In this context, we're talking about M-tickets being checked by eyeball, so it would have to rely on the driver remembering you.

The driver should still enter it on the machine. So if an inspector calls they can see how many passengers should be on the bus.

 

[pelli]

The driver should still enter it on the machine. So if an inspector calls they can see how many passengers should be on the bus.

I didn't think of that! I have indeed noticed them recording entrances like this, although I'm not sure if they also recorded all exits, which would be necessary to ensure an accurate current headcount?

 

[Haywain]

That's not the case. Ticket inspections can and do take place mid-journey on buses.

In much of the country such an event is exceedingly rare.

 

[johntea]

I thought Northern were meant to be moving from M ticket to E ticket at some point

Interestingly I bought a ticket today using their app and my bank shows the transaction as ‘Trainline’ rather than ‘NORTHERN RAIL’ as previous transactions

 

[Deafdoggie]

The driver should still enter it on the machine. So if an inspector calls they can see how many passengers should be on the bus.

They don't usually record exits. However, if the inspectors report shows 2 m-ticket passengers and on the bus there are 4, then something is wrong! In that situation they'll usually note to download the CCTV just to check.

In much of the country such an event is exceedingly rare.

Very rare indeed for passengers. For a driver not that common, but probably once every couple of months. Enough to keep them on their toes!

 

[zero]

I was on a Northern train this week and the guard had a big rant at someone who showed an e-ticket as a screenshot.

He said things like "it must be in the Northern app because you could send a screenshot to anyone"
"I can't tell if someone else has used the ticket before"
"I've flagged the ticket on my system"
"You're not in any trouble today but there will be trouble if the account which bought your ticket does it again"

The guard also asked the passenger for ID and they claimed not to have any, whereupon the guard said something like "you should really be travelling with ID because sometimes people need to know who you are"

 

[Wallsendmag]

I was on a Northern train this week and the guard had a big rant at someone who showed an e-ticket as a screenshot.

He said things like "it must be in the Northern app because you could send a screenshot to anyone"
"I can't tell if someone else has used the ticket before"
"I've flagged the ticket on my system"
"You're not in any trouble today but there will be trouble if the account which bought your ticket does it again"

The guard also asked the passenger for ID and they claimed not to have any, whereupon the guard said something like "you should really be travelling with ID because sometimes people need to know who you are"

Sounds like an mTicket to me which has visual validation and is so easy to spot when it's a screenshot.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Obviously eTickets are better, but I really don't understand the problem with mTickets. As others have said, they seem to work well on the buses. You have to activate the ticket - that's it. There are no other onerous requirements, except having a working, charged phone. That's not the Sisyphean task that some make it out to be, and for many people it's essential for normal life anyway. Of course, we're all different, but I think that people who know less about the industry wouldn't find them so objectionable.

 

[jfollows]

Obviously eTickets are better, but I really don't understand the problem with mTickets. As others have said, they seem to work well on the buses. You have to activate the ticket - that's it. There are no other onerous requirements, except having a working, charged phone. That's not the Sisyphean task that some make it out to be, and for many people it's essential for normal life anyway. Of course, we're all different, but I think that people who know less about the industry wouldn't find them so objectionable.

One of the many problems with m-tickets, well documented here, is the nonsense about "activation" because tickets which are valid for more than one day (the return half of an off-peak return, for example, being used to break the return journey which is completely legitimate) go "inactive" on the day after their activation (made "inactive" wrongly by the "app"). I don't know if this is a problem affecting all m-tickets or has been fixed (I think it is, and hasn't, respectively).
Northern ran a survey a few months ago implying they were going to move to e-tickets; my response (which wasn't the only one in the same vein) was that I refuse to use m-tickets with Northern or anyone else, and that I'd welcome the move to e-tickets.
I have used m-tickets on a bus in the past, where I bought the ticket in advance but only activated it and used it when I got on the bus. It was a bit of a faff but it worked.