"Covid rising in England" - let's stop the fear mongering

[Eyersey468]

100% agree. When that November 2021 press conference came on, which I accidently heard on the radio, I broke down in tears so much so that the next door neighbour came round to check I was OK, she had heard me. The mental impact of masks is something that has been totally ignored during the whole sage, I can ensure you it is very very real.

To be honest I broke down in tears too, it really affected my mental state as well

 

[Freightmaster]

To be honest I broke down in tears too, it really affected my mental state as well

...and yet some people (on this forum and elsewhere) had the audacity to claim at the time
that wearing a mask was "no big deal"




MARK

 

[DustyBin]

I can relate to the comments regarding masks affecting peoples mental health. I absolutely hate the things, and whilst I didn’t wear one myself, save for a few weeks at the start, seeing other people wearing them is frankly depressing.

Shortly after the mask mandate was introduced I called into a nearby Asda. It was a grey, wet day. I parked up facing the shop front and was confronted by the sight of a line of masked people, spaced two metres apart, queuing in the drizzle for their “essential items”. It was the most miserable, dystopian thing I’ve ever seen. It’s one of those images that’s etched in my mind, and serves as a reminder that we must never allow it to happen again.

 

[Eyersey468]

...and yet some people (on this forum and elsewhere) had the audacity to claim at the time
that wearing a mask was "no big deal"




MARK

Maybe not to them but to some people it is.

I can relate to the comments regarding masks affecting peoples mental health. I absolutely hate the things, and whilst I didn’t wear one myself, save for a few weeks at the start, seeing other people wearing them is frankly depressing.

Shortly after the mask mandate was introduced I called into a nearby Asda. It was a grey, wet day. I parked up facing the shop front and was confronted by the sight of a line of masked people, spaced two metres apart, queuing in the drizzle for their “essential items”. It was the most miserable, dystopian thing I’ve ever seen. It’s one of those images that’s etched in my mind, and serves as a reminder that we must never allow it to happen again.

Agreed

 

[yorkie]

Whatever peoples views are, restrictions have been very polarising.

However there is no chance of restrictions being introduced. There is no public appetite for it and there is no need for it.

The main purpose of creating this thread was to reassure people that a rise in infections was inevitable and expected and there will regularly be such increases and that the virus is never going to go away, but our population immunity is increasing all the time and there is no need to be concerned.

There is nothing unexpected happening.

Sars-CoV-2 is becoming the 5th endemic human Coronavirus, as many people expected it would do.

Those who claimed that restrictions would make the virus go away have been proven wrong and it's time to move on.

A small proportion of people cannot accept this; some people are desperate to mislead people into thinking the vaccines are ineffective in order to justify restrictions, but there is no scientific basis for their claims.

People like to say things like "immunity wanes" in order to scare and mislead people (also known as spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt aka FUD), but Coronaviruses have been infecting people for thousands of years and each time we are exposed to such a virus our immune system gets a boost. Exposure to an adapted Coronavirus, which our immune system has seen before, is not at all the same thing as naive exposure to a novel Coronavirus which our immune systems are not familar with.

People like to say "oh but variants!" but this is just a name we have come up with to describe different stages in the natural evolution of the virus as it evolves to adapt for humans, just as similar viruses have done, such as OC43 which quite likely caused the pandemic of around 133 years ago (which was at the time attributed to influenza because we didn't know how to differentiate between different types of respiratory viruses).

If anyone wants to disagree with me, that's fine, please state what part of my post you disagree with, what your view is and provide any relevant evidence. I await @David M's response with interest...

 

[172007]

...and yet some people (on this forum and elsewhere) had the audacity to claim at the time
that wearing a mask was "no big deal"




MARK

I think it's because many of us actually can't comprehend being mentally affected by the wearing of face masks.

I am not being flippant or attempting to be nasty with this comment I am being truthfully, it is just inconceivable, unimaginable to comprehend it. That's all.

Bit like a sky diver just not understanding a fear of heights I guess.

 

[bsillett]

I work for a well known supermarket. When the first lockdown came, people would come into the store maskless. We had no powers to enforce the rules and most people said they were exempt from mask wearing, a few had lanyards on that said they were exempt but these were being sold on ebay and facebooks groups. It annoyed me when customers would say "I don't like wearing them", well tough titties, try wearing one for an 8 hour shift rather than a 20 minute shop, I wore a mask to try and prevent me from taking this awful virus home and protect the people I love. Even though I was wearing a mask at work and using hand sanitizer like it was going out of fashion, I still contracted Covid in Dec 2020. I didn't go anywhere apart from work at the time, so I knew I had caught it there. It was a scary time for us all. When masks were optional, I still wore a mask at work and still do today. I have had my 2 jabs and my booster but yet again contracted Covid in March this year, again from work. What people don't realise is I'm wearing a mask to protect them, not me. I know not everyone likes wearing a mask but at the end of the day, no one knew the impact of Covid, or how many of us were going to die.

 

[MikeWM]

...I wore a mask to try and prevent me from taking this awful virus home and protect the people I love. Even though I was wearing a mask at work and using hand sanitizer like it was going out of fashion, I still contracted Covid in Dec 2020. ... I have had my 2 jabs and my booster but yet again contracted Covid in March this year, again from work. What people don't realise is I'm wearing a mask to protect them, not me.

While I understand that you believe you're doing something for the greater good, it doesn't seem from this post that you're consistent as to why you're wearing a mask (first you say it is to stop *you* getting it and taking it home, then that you're protecting others *not you*) and I'd also suggest it doesn't appear to have helped you much either way, given you say you've had Covid twice.

Which fits in to all the evidence we now have from all around the world, that community mask wearing doesn't achieve anything positive (and may indeed be counter-productive).

 

[kez19]

I work for a well known supermarket. When the first lockdown came, people would come into the store maskless. We had no powers to enforce the rules and most people said they were exempt from mask wearing, a few had lanyards on that said they were exempt but these were being sold on ebay and facebooks groups. It annoyed me when customers would say "I don't like wearing them", well tough titties, try wearing one for an 8 hour shift rather than a 20 minute shop, I wore a mask to try and prevent me from taking this awful virus home and protect the people I love. Even though I was wearing a mask at work and using hand sanitizer like it was going out of fashion, I still contracted Covid in Dec 2020. I didn't go anywhere apart from work at the time, so I knew I had caught it there. It was a scary time for us all. When masks were optional, I still wore a mask at work and still do today. I have had my 2 jabs and my booster but yet again contracted Covid in March this year, again from work. What people don't realise is I'm wearing a mask to protect them, not me. I know not everyone likes wearing a mask but at the end of the day, no one knew the impact of Covid, or how many of us were going to die.

Question but how is wearing a mask protecting them not you? Don’t you see the hypocrisy of our politicians and media in all this?

I ask again so what’s the difference to them in a TV studio to a supermarket? Or on the other it took the politicians ages to put a mask on in parliaments to only last no longer than a few months (when this has been going on since 2020).

I’ve only caught COVID once triple jabbed but have to mask up in work but outside I feel more free without a mask (wearing a mask nearly all the time started to give me anxiety), I’m someone that believes that if you want to wear one it’s personal choice (I’m not going to call you names under the sun etc), however I don’t play to the media gallery in its spin as I said before believe what you want no one is judging you the only ones that do (to me in my eyes) is those in media.

 

[Eyersey468]

@yorkie which pandemic was 133 years ago?

 

[Crossover]

Question but how is wearing a mask protecting them not you?

Moreover, am I right in thinking that FFP2/3 masks only filter inhalation, not exhalation (thus rendering even these useless at protecting aneone but the wearer)?

 

[Hans]

Do we know that PCR tests are currently being run with a high enough number of cycles to make them that sensitive ? The official documentation I could find is evasive. Others may have had more luck

There were government (PHE) documents and FOI iirc which stated the cycle threshold should be no higher than 36 and even at that threshold residue fragments of virus would be found which do not necessary indicate infection. The FOI (I will see if I can find it) stated 40 was the threshold but that any further details were not held by the government!

 

[MikeWM]

I think one item in the news today shows how silly everything has been : that the reason GDP shrank in April, rather than grew, is apparently entirely down to the withdrawal of Covid mass testing and test-and-trace. I think that shows rather well (a) how we were spending far, far too much money on all of this, and (b) that GDP isn't a very good measure of the actual health of the economy.

 

[Eyersey468]

I think one item in the news today shows how silly everything has been : that the reason GDP shrank in April, rather than grew, is apparently entirely down to the withdrawal of Covid mass testing and test-and-trace. I think that shows rather well (a) how we were spending far, far too much money on all of this, and (b) that GDP isn't a very good measure of the actual health of the economy.

Sorry if I am being thick but how does that make a difference to GDP?

 

[kez19]

Moreover, am I right in thinking that FFP2/3 masks only filter inhalation, not exhalation (thus rendering even these useless at protecting aneone but the wearer)?

Unfortunately I wouldn’t know but in terms of how these cloth masks became trendy still baffles me to today.

 

[MikeWM]

Sorry if I am being thick but how does that make a difference to GDP?

While I'm acknowledging that this is very vague, if companies stop producing quite so many tests, or if government stops spending money on them, then GDP falls. It is basically a measure of 'how much economic activity is going on', which doesn't necessarily correspond to whether that activity is actually of any use or not.

As a silly example, doing something entirely pointless (eg. knocking down your house and building it again) can add to GDP; doing nothing instead (just living in the perfectly good house you already have) won't.

It's a very flawed measure, but the alternatives have serious issues too.

 

[Eyersey468]

While I'm acknowledging that this is very vague, if companies stop producing quite so many tests, or if government stops spending money on them, then GDP falls. It is basically a measure of 'how much economic activity is going on', which doesn't necessarily correspond to whether that activity is actually of any use or not.

As a silly example, doing something entirely pointless (eg. knocking down your house and building it again) can add to GDP; doing nothing instead (just living in the perfectly good house you already have) won't.

It's a very flawed measure, but the alternatives have serious issues too.

Aah I see thank you for the explanation

 

[Mikw]

I don't mind the masks, but i'm hideously ugly so quite like to be covered up.

 

[yorkie]

I work for a well known supermarket. When the first lockdown came, people would come into the store maskless. We had no powers to enforce the rules and most people said they were exempt from mask wearing, a few had lanyards on that said they were exempt but these were being sold on ebay and facebooks groups.

Anyone was able to declare themselves exempt for a wide range of reasons; there was no requirement to wear a lanyard or anything else, nor to state the reason for exemption.

It annoyed me when customers would say "I don't like wearing them", well tough titties, try wearing one for an 8 hour shift rather than a 20 minute shop

If you had trouble wearing one, you could have declared yourself exempt too.

I wore a mask to try and prevent me from taking this awful virus home and protect the people I love.

If you wore a well-fitted FFP3 mask (or, to a slightly lesser extent, FFP2), then providing you regularly replaced them, and handled/stored them correctly, it made no difference to you what other people chose to wear or not wear.

If you wore a flimsy, loose fitting mask then this did not protect you or anyone else as these masks are not designed to filter aerosol particles.

Even though I was wearing a mask at work and using hand sanitizer like it was going out of fashion, I still contracted Covid in Dec 2020.

This isn't surprising in all honesty because, ultimately, we cannot prevent the fact we are all going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2 multiple times during our lifetimes.

I didn't go anywhere apart from work at the time, so I knew I had caught it there.

You could only say this if, for the duration, you did not cohabit/socialise/eat etc with anyone else.

It was a scary time for us all. When masks were optional, I still wore a mask at work and still do today.

That is your choice, but if you wish to prevent a re-exposure of the virus, it would need to be a tight-fitting mask and you'd need to be replacing/handling/storing the masks in accordance with the instructions and also you'd need to be avoiding doing anything like eating etc in proximity to others which would involve taking the mask off.

It's just not practicable to avoid exposure to Sars-Cov-2; this is why we've been vaccinated, which prepares our immune system for when the virus is encountered.

I have had my 2 jabs and my booster but yet again contracted Covid in March this year, again from work.

See above; it's just not possible to avoid exposure. Every time you are exposed, you will be building up your immunity. This is happening across a population level, and we are transitioning to a state of endemic equilibrium where we live with the virus, in a similar way we do with other respiratory viruses.

What people don't realise is I'm wearing a mask to protect them, not me.

That's a myth which has been widely debunked. An effective mask, which is tight-fitting, when correctly worn/handled/stored/replaced, is almost 100% effective at preventing you - the wearer - from being exposed to aerosols containing virus partcles, while the mask is worn.

It makes absolutely no difference to you whether other people are wearing tight-fitting effective masks which are designed to filter aerosols, or if they are wearing flimsy, loose fitting masks which are not designed to filter aerosols, or wearing no mask at all.

I know not everyone likes wearing a mask but at the end of the day, no one knew the impact of Covid, or how many of us were going to die.

It is true that no-one knew what the impact was, but there is plenty of evidence that the danger to people who are not in vulnerable groups was overplayed by the Government and other bodies; the average age of a death with Covid being above that of the average life expectancy.

@yorkie which pandemic was 133 years ago?

It was the pandemic generally known as "Asiatic flu" or "Russian flu", however at the time we were not able to differentiate between different types of virus and all respiratory viruses were known as "influenza"; young people didn't do anywhere near as badly during this pandemic compared to influenza pandemics and a lot of experts believe that the OC43 Coronavirus is a more likely candidate as the cause of the pandemic rather than a strain of influenza but we will probably never be able to be certain either way.

Research was carried out after the 2002 SARS outbreak, and again renewed research has occured in the wake of Sars-CoV-2. Some interesting articles include:

Clinical evidence that the pandemic from 1889 to 1891 commonly called the Russian flu might have been an earlier coronavirus pandemic

Contemporary clinical reports on patients of the Russian flu pandemic of 1889 to 1891 show striking similarity to COVID-19 patients, demonstrating *multiorgan affections of the respiratory, intestina...

sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

...several epidemiological observations documented in the historical records of the Russian flu pandemic point more to a COVID-19-like than to an influenza-like disease. One might mention the incubation period estimated for the German cases of the Russian flu epidemic, which is closer to the incubation period of COVID-19 than of influenza. Influenza virus has a U-shaped age profile of clinical susceptibility where both young children and elderly are clinically affected. COVID-19 has its main fatality in the elderly, this was also noted for the Russian flu pandemic. While the peak mortality in the Russian flu pandemic was with the elderly, substantial mortality was also seen in adults but children suffered only mild symptoms similar to the current COVID-19 pandemic. Other epidemiological observations also hint towards COVID-19 rather than influenza in patients from the 1889 to 1891 pandemic, namely the predilection for obese subjects and patients with comorbidity...

An uncommon cold

The covid-19 virus isn't the first coronavirus to jump from animals to humans. What can we learn from previous encounters, asks Anthony King

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

...By comparing its sequence with strains found in other animals, the researchers concluded that OC43 must have originated in cattle or pigs. Accounting for expected mutation rates and working backwards, they calculated that the jump into humans occurred around 1890. Sound familiar?

That date isn't the only thing linking OC43 with Russian flu. Many patients of that pandemic had pronounced symptoms affecting their central nervous system. Today, although mostly associated with mild colds, OC43 is also known to infect nervous tissue. It is a suspect in nervous system conditions such as chronic demyelinating disease and multiple sclerosis. What's more, a 1994 report of a 6-year-old child contracting a bovine coronavirus suggests cattle strains can indeed sneak into people. ...

Q&A: Why history suggests Covid-19 is here to stay

He says that the foothold of the SARS-CoV-2 virus in the human population today means it is likely to follow a similar pattern and become a continuously circulating, or ‘endemic’ virus, joining four other human coronaviruses that infect people with common cold symptoms.

ec.europa.eu

... We redid the genetic analysis (of OC43 evolution) to see at what point the bovine and the human viruses started to diverge (which indicates OC43 jumped species) and we found exactly the same date (as the Russian flu epidemic). Even at the time people were debating about the cause of this weird flu, though they did not even know about viruses. But it was striking even then that this might be something different.

In recent months, journalists have searched through archives and, especially in Russia, they found old newspaper articles with references to the loss of taste and the loss of smell, which is definitely not characteristic of an influenza pandemic (but is a symptom of Covid-19). It fits with a coronavirus origin for this pandemic too...

No-one is saying for certain that the 1889 pandemic was caused by a virus such as OC43, but based on the available evidence, it seems more likely that a virus such as OC43 was the cause than a strain of influenza. We will never know for sure.

It is highly likely that similar viruses to Sars-CoV-2, such as OC43, were similarly virulent at the time when they jumped to humans. Over time, viruses adapt for their hosts, while with each exposure, the host population slowly develops increasing levels of population immunity.

There is no evidence to suggest Sars-CoV-2 is not going to become the 5th endemic human Coronavirus and so far the evolution of the virus is in line with what was widely expected.

The idea that Sars-CoV-2 can somehow be eliminated or that exposure to it can be avoided by imposing restrictions on ones self or others is utterly absurd, but that won't stop deluded people from trying. And they don't come any more deluded than Xi Jinping!

 

[Scotrail12]

It almost feels like they are ramping up the COVID fear since the monkeypox fear didn't really gain enough traction for their liking.

 

[stuartl]

Moreover, am I right in thinking that FFP2/3 masks only filter inhalation, not exhalation (thus rendering even these useless at protecting aneone but the wearer)?

My screwfix catalogue lists both types, i.e. with or without an exhuast valve. The ones without filter both ways.

 

[rg177]

My screwfix catalogue lists both types, i.e. with or without an exhuast valve. The ones without filter both ways.

Indeed, I have noted that where mask rules have been in place in various countries and settings they usually specify FFP2 without valve, as otherwise there wasn't an awful lot of point for everyone else.

 

[kez19]

It almost feels like they are ramping up the COVID fear since the monkeypox fear didn't really gain enough traction for their liking.

Is this the news media at it again? Oh dear they’ll never learn! Media are running out of ideas?

No wonder I generally have no time for uk news media, if it’s fear it’s negative stories.

 

[Eyersey468]

Thank you @yorkie

 

[johntea]

Well without much fanfare today the hospital I work at has dropped the requirement for masks for staff / patients / visitors apart from a handful of specific wards (or if a member of staff is transporting around a Covid positive patient for example) so that is pleasing

I still have the ridiculous looking goggles they gave to every member of staff in my drawer at work actually, and who could forget those ridiculous face shields!

 

[daniep01]

To be honest I broke down in tears too, it really affected my mental state as well

Agreed. Personally I’m unable to go outside in public for fear of encountering people in masks. So the sooner this is all over and normality returns the better.

 

[SynthD]

Agreed. Personally I’m unable to go outside in public for fear of encountering people in masks. So the sooner this is all over and normality returns the better.

That sounds a lot like the covid fear that was, and maybe still is, heavily mocked on this forum. But maskless people during the real height of covid pose a very different threat to what masked people pose to the maskless majority now. It’s a reminder of what the government could do? What is your fear based on happening in June?

 

[DustyBin]

That sounds a lot like the covid fear that was, and maybe still is, heavily mocked on this forum. But maskless people during the real height of covid pose a very different threat to what masked people pose to the maskless majority now. It’s a reminder of what the government could do? What is your fear based on happening in June?

In regard to the former, what threat would that be exactly?

 

[yorkie]

That sounds a lot like the covid fear that was, and maybe still is, heavily mocked on this forum.

Can you explain what you mean by that and provide an example?

But maskless people during the real height of covid pose a very different threat to what masked people pose to the maskless majority now.

What threat?

It’s a reminder of what the government could do? What is your fear based on happening in June?

I don't understand what question you are asking of @daniep01, or how it relates to their post.

 

[SynthD]

I didn’t think I needed to spell out that at the height of covid, maskless people (and masked) could spread covid to masked people.

I want to understand daniep and eyersey’s fear. How does it relates to the masked people out there this month, who are typically immunocompromised people, or the government who formerly imposed restrictions.