Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[345 050]

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Someone from say Chatham buying a ticket to Rochester to bypass the barriers, catching the Thameslink to Abbey Wood before touching into oyster/contactless and carrying on on the Liz Line.

Or even someone not having a ticket for the leg from station X to Abbey Wood where station X has no ticket barriers (Stone Crossing/Higham)

Essentially the interchange bridges are solely for journeys made within Oyster/Contactless zone? If not, then you're out of luck?

I'm not 100% convinced by the logic, surely someone without a ticket, or with the wrong ticket could join Elizabeth Line without tapping in, and then use another wrong ticket at other end? I.e. there are still holes in the system....

In other news EL services will be impacted by the strikes next week. Apparently due to the need to get to and from Old Oak. Although no disruption until afternoon, not sure why?

 

[Kite159]

Essentially the interchange bridges are solely for journeys made within Oyster/Contactless zone? If not, then you're out of luck?

I'm not 100% convinced by the logic, surely someone without a ticket, or with the wrong ticket could join Elizabeth Line without tapping in, and then use another wrong ticket at other end? I.e. there are still holes in the system....

In other news EL services will be impacted by the strikes next week. Apparently due to the need to get to and from Old Oak. Although no disruption until afternoon, not sure why?

Someone without a ticket can join an EL train at Abbey Wood, having travelled there from another station, however all the EL stations in the core have barriers (although it does mean they can try and touch out and get a max fare)

Having platform side validators will be a bit like Stratford & West Ham, passengers arriving from central London on the EL, touching out then transferring to a South Eastern/Thameslink service further afield

 

[Hadders]

The situation at Farringdon is farcical given that there have been standalone validators between Thameslink and the Underground platforms for years. Why someone thought there wasn't a need for validators between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line is baffling.

 

[Steddenm]

Used oyster today between Stratford and Canary wharf today on DLR then Elizabeth Line between CW and Farringdon. The tap on at Stratford and Tap Out at CW worked fine, I tapped on at CW EL and out at Farringdon yet it didn't register the tap on at CW EL. Was charged a full fare. Spoke to somebody at Victoria who sorted it as an incomplete journey and altered the fare for me.

 

[Taunton]

Used oyster today between Stratford and Canary wharf today on DLR then Elizabeth Line between CW and Farringdon. The tap on at Stratford and Tap Out at CW worked fine, I tapped on at CW EL and out at Farringdon yet it didn't register the tap on at CW EL. Was charged a full fare. Spoke to somebody at Victoria who sorted it as an incomplete journey and altered the fare for me.

Given that 99% of normal passengers do not check every journey for this sort of thing, the TfL assumption that everyone with journeys not recorded completely is on the fiddle is surely going to get a legal challenge some day.

It would be good for TfL to publish how many such maximum fares are charged each day, and how many they subsequently correct.

 

[Hadders]

Used oyster today between Stratford and Canary wharf today on DLR then Elizabeth Line between CW and Farringdon. The tap on at Stratford and Tap Out at CW worked fine, I tapped on at CW EL and out at Farringdon yet it didn't register the tap on at CW EL. Was charged a full fare. Spoke to somebody at Victoria who sorted it as an incomplete journey and altered the fare for me.

How did you get through the barriers at Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line if the touch-in failed?

 

[Steddenm]

How did you get through the barriers at Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line if the touch-in failed?

No idea. The barriers opened as normal and bleeped to say that the card had been read correctly.

On a second note, used the EL again this morning between PAD and LIV and the same happened. Tap in at PAD is showing as fine - tap out at LIV is showing as an incomplete journey after I'd tapped in again at LIV (mainline) to Stratford (which is showing as fine). Stratford Station sorted it though.

 

[Mojo]

How did you get through the barriers at Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line if the touch-in failed?

Maybe inadvertently doubled in behind someone else?

 

[Steddenm]

Maybe inadvertently doubled in behind someone else?

There was nobody else in front of me. Station staff at both Victoria and Liverpool Street have said that it's a known common mistake that TfL have made at the moment. Apparently some of the gates are set to something which allows the gates to open but without actually reading the Oyster card.

Friend at work uses contactless and she has had the same problem at PAD, TCR and Liverpool Street over the past week. Charges a full incomplete journey.

 

[Hadders]

No idea. The barriers opened as normal and bleeped to say that the card had been read correctly.

On a second note, used the EL again this morning between PAD and LIV and the same happened. Tap in at PAD is showing as fine - tap out at LIV is showing as an incomplete journey after I'd tapped in again at LIV (mainline) to Stratford (which is showing as fine). Stratford Station sorted it though.

It can take a couple of days for the data to catch-up on the system, so it’s probably nothing wrong and would have sorted itself out. I’m sure @MikeWh will be able to advise.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've got a similar problem with a tap out at Paddington high-level and tap in again at the Elizabeth Line underground barriers. Don't suppose I'll get it sorted because of not living anywhere near a TFL managed station.

 

[jhy44]

How did you get through the barriers at Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line if the touch-in failed?

Can confirm the same thing has happened to me too many times at Victoria mainline gates, no one in front of me, I 'tap in/out', gates open, but it doesn't register. Very frustrating.

Thankfully I can always tell when this 'failed tap' has happened; usually when I tap in/out the screen will display my Oyster card balance and journey cost - when it's a 'failed tap', this doesn't happen, it bleeps and opens but no monetary values are displayed on the screen.

Then I know I have to call TfL and go through the rigmarole of getting it fixed, as the lazy station staff all refuse to help. Mainline staff say 'it's Oyster so it's TfL, go downstairs', then TfL staff say 'its an error with the mainline gates, go upstairs' *rolls eyes*.

 

[Mojo]

Then I know I have to call TfL and go through the rigmarole of getting it fixed, as the lazy station staff all refuse to help. Mainline staff say 'it's Oyster so it's TfL, go downstairs', then TfL staff say 'its an error with the mainline gates, go upstairs' *rolls eyes*.

I’m not sure if the TfL visitor information centres are able to help with resolving journeys anyway, their machines are effectively the same as the ones used in newsagents.

LU staff meanwhile are not supposed to assist, although may do in reality for customer service reasons, since back office processes were improved that automatically calculate and refund certain issues.

 

[LeeLivery]

No idea. The barriers opened as normal and bleeped to say that the card had been read correctly.

On a second note, used the EL again this morning between PAD and LIV and the same happened. Tap in at PAD is showing as fine - tap out at LIV is showing as an incomplete journey after I'd tapped in again at LIV (mainline) to Stratford (which is showing as fine). Stratford Station sorted it though.

I've had this happen to me twice, both times it didn't register the touch in West Hampstead Thameslink when making a change from the Jubilee. There's definitely a glitch there.

 

[bicbasher]

I’m not sure if the TfL visitor information centres are able to help with resolving journeys anyway, their machines are effectively the same as the ones used in newsagents.

LU staff meanwhile are not supposed to assist, although may do in reality for customer service reasons, since back office processes were improved that automatically calculate and refund certain issues.

Indeed, they get the standard Oyster Ticket Stop terminals. While they can't help with refunds, they're great for getting photocards/railcards added when most newsagents don't have a clue, even if they've been trained in how to use them properly.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I notice the Elizabeth line station at Paddington has no Metro newspaper stands. Is this true of other stations with standalone EL entrances?

 

[Taunton]

LU staff meanwhile are not supposed to assist, although may do in reality for customer service reasons, since back office processes were improved that automatically calculate and refund certain issues.

However can that be? They either have the equipment and understanding to do it, or they haven't.

The tap in/out failing to register is a longstanding Oyster issue at out-of-station interchanges. I've had it at various times over the years and it's always at an OSI. The substantial number introduced with Crossrail seems to have exacerbated it. TfL must be aware of the software issue that causes it. I wonder, do they have an Incomplete Journeys charge Revenue Budget that someone doesn't want to have reduced?

 

[DC1989]

It's reported that the reliability over the first few weeks was 98%

I've been using it for my commute daily and its been extremely reliable, you could set your watch to it. Let's hope that continues when it joins up - though I don't think it will based on the amount of times there's delays on the Eastern and western ends due to trespassers on the tracks

 

[stuu]

I’m not sure if the TfL visitor information centres are able to help with resolving journeys anyway, their machines are effectively the same as the ones used in newsagents.

LU staff meanwhile are not supposed to assist, although may do in reality for customer service reasons, since back office processes were improved that automatically calculate and refund certain issues.

Aren't they? I swear that staff being available to help with machines was one of the mitigations when the ticket offices were closed.

 

[londonteacher]

I notice the Elizabeth line station at Paddington has no Metro newspaper stands. Is this true of other stations with standalone EL entrances?

In fairness that’s a good thing. We don’t want the litter left in the stations and trains after someone discards it!

 

[XAM2175]

Aren't they? I swear that staff being available to help with machines was one of the mitigations when the ticket offices were closed.

The April/May 2022 Ticketing and Revenue Update (#138) has on page 8 a section on resolution of incomplete journeys by LU staff:

Incomplete PAYG journeys can be resolved under [sic] the following limited circumstances:
- Recent customer error at the station concerned (e.g. customer validating Oyster when in possession of a valid paper ticket)
- Known incident (e.g. power/gateline failure which prevented validation)
In all cases the incomplete journey must have taken place in the last 48 hours.

 

[dodecahedron67]

With regard to the (lack of) farringdon TL <> XR oyster validators, I made a journey in the opening week from St Pancras TL to Woolwich XR without touching in/out at Farringdon and it accepted it as a valid fare for £4.30 (peak)

 

[Watershed]

With regard to the (lack of) farringdon TL <> XR oyster validators, I made a journey in the opening week from St Pancras TL to Woolwich XR without touching in/out at Farringdon and it accepted it as a valid fare for £4.30 (peak)

You don't need to validate intermediately once you're touched in. The issue is for people who've arrived at Farringdon using a paper/e-ticket. There are still the validators for changing onto the Underground but they're somewhat out of the way for getting to/from the EL.

 

[Taunton]

Incomplete PAYG journeys can be resolved under [sic] the following limited circumstances:
- Recent customer error at the station concerned (e.g. customer validating Oyster when in possession of a valid paper ticket)
- Known incident (e.g. power/gateline failure which prevented validation)
In all cases the incomplete journey must have taken place in the last 48 hours.

You have to wonder how connected TfL management are with reality. Having been affected by these in the past :

- Fire alarms went off at Bond Street, everyone ushered out, gatelines opened. How on earth is one meant to ask for staff to handle incomplete tickets when the are occupied elsewhere.
- Comparable, fatality at Sloane Square. Fire service coming in, detrained passengers coming out, gateline all open. Obviously no staff to hand.
- Anywhere on the DLR, no staff (eg readers faulty - especially regular the south facing outdoor ones which are impacted by continuous sunlight)

 

[ijmad]

In terms of operational contingency, we know that by the time full service rolls around, the full 24tph service could be reversed at Paddington via auto reverse, which should serve us well if the GWML becomes blocked.

I was wondering about the other end though - if there are issues on the GEML though. Is there enough turnback to reverse the full service using crossovers if trains destined for Shenfield cannot be sent to Shenfield? Can the full service be sent down the Abbey Wood branch and reversed at Custom House and/or Abbey Wood itself?

 

[Richardr]

You don't need to validate intermediately once you're touched in. The issue is for people who've arrived at Farringdon using a paper/e-ticket. There are still the validators for changing onto the Underground but they're somewhat out of the way for getting to/from the EL.

Or of course a Key card on the Thameslink, which needs an out if used PAYG, and Contactless / Oyster that needs an in.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

In fairness that’s a good thing. We don’t want the litter left in the stations and trains after someone discards it!

I've never found anything worth reading in Metro so I don't pick-up a copy.

 

[Jimini]

I've never found anything worth reading in Metro so I don't pick-up a copy.

McDonald's vouchers on a Tuesday

 

[Taunton]

Or of course a Key card on the Thameslink, which needs an out if used PAYG, and Contactless / Oyster that needs an in.

One really would have hoped that, somewhere in the whole Crossrail project, both in its main development period and in the additional time the overrun gave, adequate thought would have been given to ticketing, and interchanging between modes. It's not as if direct access between National Rail and TfL services is some novelty; cross-platform interchange was built at Stratford in 1945 for the Central Line extension, while within TfL services themselves, Canning Town, DLR on top of Jubilee, allowing seamless interchange in all directions, was readily available as an example. Yet one gets the impression that a number of the station arrangements just had the ticket validation arrangements slammed together by know-nothing project interns.

Mayor's Transport Committee : "Why is the ticketing interchange such a fiasco?".
TfL : "Um ... we think we have a plan to fix it".
Committee : "Oh ... well that's alright then".
TfL : "Phew ...".

 

[Acton1991]

TfL have launched a new ad campaign focused on the Elizabeth line. I live in West London and it's currently on a LOT across Sky Catch Up services.
I think it's a pretty nice ad, and there's even a cameo from a GWR 387 if you look really closely!