Station platforms, it's gone too far, it's crossed a red line (literally)

[Justin Smith]

I was waiting for a train on Platform 14 Manchester Piccadilly today. A container train stopped in the platform and I was looking at its brake rigging, just out of interest, as you do.
Next thing some railway employee was shouting at me to "step back behind the red line".
I must admit that, particularly after the pandemic, I am getting heartily sick of people telling me what to do especially when I can see no good reason for it so I only just managed to stop myself "questioning" this order in a forthright way, but it wound me up big time.
What is this red line anyway ?
Years ago they painted yellow lines to indicate a safe distance from the edge of a platform where fast trains pass, but there are no fast trains at Manchester Piccadilly anyway !
Now it appears to be an edict, stay behind the yellow line when a train (however slow) is coming.
But Piccadilly has now gone even further and has red lines (two sets in fact - see picture) even further back and passengers must not, apparently, cross them unless boarding a train.
Where has this come from ?
Is there any railway byelaw they are using here ?
Have they any right to demand any of this ?

 

[ainsworth74]

You need to get out more! That red line has been there for years. Several years pre-covid I think. A nonsense of course either way.

 

[Justin Smith]

I didn't actually say I thought it was Covid related, I just said being ordered around for two years has made me even less willing to obey these pathetic unnecessary rules, but what is the red line for ?
Why have they got a red line as well as a yellow one ?
Most importantly, have they actually got any right to tell you to move ?
Whilst we're on, careful inspection of the photograph reveals blue dots, what are they for ?

 

[Watershed]

I didn't actually say I thought it was Covid related, I just said being ordered around for two years has made me even less willing to obey these pathetic unnecessary rules, but what is the red line for ?
Why have they got a red line as well as a yellow one ?
Most importantly, have they actually got any right to tell you to move ?
Whilst we're on, careful inspection of the photograph reveals blue dots, what are they for ?

It's purportedly down to crowd control given the narrow nature of platforms 13 & 14. But as you say, it's completely nonsensical given the linespeed is 25mph and it just makes the problem even worse. Funny how on every other equivalent platform around the network and around the world they seem to manage without such nonsenses...

The blue dots are, I'm afraid to say, extant social distancing markers!

Frankly someone from NR HQ needs to come down and sort it out, because the passenger experience at 13 & 14 is very unpleasant, and quite unnecessarily so.

 

[The Planner]

Platforms are due to be resurfaced and a new bridge put in over the next few years. Not a huge amount you can do there. Oxford Road is also down for a pretty major rebuild.

 

[zwk500]

I didn't actually say I thought it was Covid related, I just said being ordered around for two years has made me even less willing to obey these pathetic unnecessary rules, but what is the red line for ?

To keep people safe. It may look silly to you, but NR has to consider everybody who might use the railway, some of whom would be very vulnerable only 1m away from the edge as a freight train ran past. The platform surfaces in your picture look to be in fairly bad condition so I wouldn't be surprised if worries about wheelchairs, prams, suitcases and less mobile people have led the risk assessment to conclude people need to be kept further back.

Why have they got a red line as well as a yellow one ?

Because the yellow line has been assessed to be not sufficient (possibly to do with lack of tactile edging and the platform condition).

Most importantly, have they actually got any right to tell you to move ?

Yes. If they deem you to be in an unsafe position they can make a reasonable request to move to a safe one. If you refuse to follow the instructions, they can ask you to leave and as the railway is private property if you refused to leave you would be trespassing.

Whilst we're on, careful inspection of the photograph reveals blue dots, what are they for ?

They appear to be 2m apart, probably covid related.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Platforms are due to be resurfaced and a new bridge put in over the next few years. Not a huge amount you can do there. Oxford Road is also down for a pretty major rebuild.

Speaking of Oxford Road, the red line there is even worse. It continues the full length of the platform and as platform 4 in particular narrows considerably towards the end it is physically impossible to stand behind the red line - but that didn't stop them painting it. The red line thing would be a joke if the staff at Piccadilly weren't so obnoxious, which makes it far from a joke.

 

[Deepgreen]

A farcial mess of coloured lines and dots that no passenger could seriously be expected to understand or obey. Constraining passengers to a narrow strip but expecting social distancing - ludicrous.

 

[swt_passenger]

You need to get out more! That red line has been there for years. Several years pre-covid I think. A nonsense of course either way.

Is the dark red the original over the top idea, and the lighter red a newer version with slightly more space?

 

[Watershed]

Is the dark red the original over the top idea, and the lighter red a newer version with slightly more space?

Yes, and there was a very half-hearted attempt to erase the original line.

 

[ainsworth74]

I didn't actually say I thought it was Covid related

And I wasn't trying to suggest you thought it was. I was simply using it as a measure of time. I could equally I suppose have said "it's been there for four or five years at a guess" but didn't think to do so when making the post.

Is the dark red the original over the top idea, and the lighter red a newer version with slightly more space?

I believe that's right. Both lines are crackers of course but the first really was mad.

 

[Malaxa]

I think the walls need signs, repeating at regular intervals, with a message such as: "Passengers must not attempt to clamber aboard slow-moving or stationary freight trains". That'll keep the railways extra safe.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the walls need signs, repeating at regular intervals, with a message such as: "Passengers must not attempt to clamber aboard slow-moving or stationary freight trains". That'll keep the railways extra safe.

Indeed. I was also thinking recently that perhaps some signs reminding people to breathe might be a good idea? We don't want to risk anyone passing out for lack of oxygen.

 

[_toommm_]

It also used to be the case that you couldn’t step over the red line until the train had fully stopped. They employed marshalls (the polite term) to shout at you if you stepped on/over the red line. The madness being that if it’s for crowd control, the smaller area encompassed by the red line would mean people are packed closer together, which I would wager is more unsafe if the platform is crush loaded.

 

[gazr]

Don't forget to carry water when it's hot outside- we live in a nanny state (on the railways at least). Yet they fail to educate children to stay the duck off the tracks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also used to be the case that you couldn’t step over the red line until the train had fully stopped. They employed marshalls (the polite term) to shout at you if you stepped on/over the red line. The madness being that if it’s for crowd control, the smaller area encompassed by the red line would mean people are packed closer together, which I would wager is more unsafe if the platform is crush loaded.

Still is the case, and is still stupid. Though it'd be less bad if they'd employ polite, professional railway staff to ask people to stand back rather than aggressive, impolite rent-a-thugs who appear to have been recruited from the parade of spice-heads down at Piccadilly Gardens.

 

[Justin Smith]

To keep people safe.

If I hear that one more time I will soddin' scream, I have actually got more than two brain cells to rub together thanks, and people who haven't (e.g. kids under about 12) are not generally let out on their own......
But the $£64,000 question is : why has it been safe for over 150 years and now, apparently, it is no longer so ?
This is H&S madness gone bonkers, people have to push back against this all who knows where it will end up.
Actually I do know where it will all end up, sooner or later everything will be banned unless specifically allowed "to keep us safe".
Hopefully I'll be dead before that happens.
What else has been safe for 175 years, until recently ?

Is the dark red the original over the top idea, and the lighter red a newer version with slightly more space?

No, far better, get rid of them, and I mean all of them.

 

[kermit]

Just as an aside to give some perspective....we recently hosted some Americans, who were astonished by the casual approach we took to crossing the road. Do Americans enjoy fewer pedestrian deaths and injuries than us, because of their strict "jaywalking" regulations? Somehow, I doubt it. The Dutch apparently have lower cyclist casualty rates than us, but spurn the use of helmets (indeed, I have seen a baby dangling from a crossbar in a kind of hammock!). The OP is quite right, and the people in charge of Manchester Piccadilly are wasting our money on paint and hired enforcement goons. Resist!

 

[Justin Smith]

It also used to be the case that you couldn’t step over the red line until the train had fully stopped. They employed marshalls (the polite term) to shout at you if you stepped on/over the red line. The madness being that if it’s for crowd control, the smaller area encompassed by the red line would mean people are packed closer together, which I would wager is more unsafe if the platform is crush loaded.

There were LOADS of them there. I was wondering just how much it must be costing......

 

[DarloRich]

Ah the anti hsea crusdaer strikes again. It isnt worth trying to engage with this poster. He has no intrest in facts and merely wants to complain about hsea gone mad.

 

[Justin Smith]

Ah the anti hsea crusdaer strikes again. It isnt worth trying to engage with this poster. He has no intrest in facts and merely wants to complain about hsea gone mad.

No, you have that 180 degrees wrong. I DO want to engage in facts. It is the H&S "keep us safe" zealots who do not want facts, they're happy with 'better be safe than sorry'.
How many people, say in the last 10 years, have been killed falling onto the track at Manchester Piccadilly ?

 

[jopsuk]

What else has been safe for 175 years, until recently ?

View attachment 116451

It wasn't safe, ever, people were regularly killed and more frequently injured.

Just as an aside to give some perspective....we recently hosted some Americans, who were astonished by the casual approach we took to crossing the road. Do Americans enjoy fewer pedestrian deaths and injuries than us, because of their strict "jaywalking" regulations? Somehow, I doubt it. The Dutch apparently have lower cyclist casualty rates than us, but spurn the use of helmets (indeed, I have seen a baby dangling from a crossbar in a kind of hammock!). The OP is quite right, and the people in charge of Manchester Piccadilly are wasting our money on paint and hired enforcement goons. Resist!

the dutch have lower per person/per km cycle casualty rates than (eg) the UK because they separate people cycling from the danger to people cycling- very much a "health & safety" culture approach, just done right as they understand properly the hierarchy of controls

 

[kermit]

Ah the anti hsea crusdaer strikes again. It isnt worth trying to engage with this poster. He has no intrest in facts and merely wants to complain about hsea gone mad.

Bit harsh there Darlo! Obviously you have a track record (sorry!....) of debate with the OP that left you, perhaps, exasperated, but you are surely not saying that there is no purpose in discussion about the extent and nature of the complex web of rules (complete with abundant examples of unintended consequences - see platform overcrowding comments above) that we choose to live by?

 

[ComUtoR]

If I hear that one more time I will soddin' scream, I have actually got more than two brain cells to rub together thanks, and people who haven't (e.g. kids under about 12) are not generally let out on their own......
But the $£64,000 question is : why has it been safe for over 150 years and now, apparently, it is no longer so ?
This is H&S madness gone bonkers, people have to push back against this all who knows where it will end up.
Actually I do know where it will all end up, sooner or later everything will be banned unless specifically allowed "to keep us safe".
Hopefully I'll be dead before that happens.
What else has been safe for 175 years, until recently ?

Passenger dies in incident on Gatwick Express train

Person with head injury pronounced dead after being hit by train while leaning out of window at Wandsworth Common station

www.theguardian.com

Person with head injury pronounced dead after being hit by train while leaning out of window at Wandsworth Common station

Gatwick train firm fined £1m over death of passenger struck on head by gantry

Govia Thameslink Railway pleaded guilty to a health and safety breach over the death of Simon Brown in south London in 2016.

www.countypress.co.uk

Gatwick train firm fined £1m over death of passenger struck on head by gantry​

Woman killed leaning out of train window when she was struck by tree branch

Bethan Roper died on the evening of December 1 2018 while returning home with friends from a day out Christmas shopping in Bath after she was hit by an ash tree branch

www.mirror.co.uk

Bethan Roper died on the evening of December 1 2018 while returning home with friends from a day out Christmas shopping in Bath after she was hit by an ash tree branch

Southeastern: Visually impaired man died after Bromley platform fall

The victim fell from Eden Park station and was hit by a passing Southeastern train.

www.bbc.co.uk

The platform did not have a tactile surface designed to warn people with poor vision they were close to the edge, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said.

These couple of headlines might answer your question why the world has gone "health and safety mad."

Accidents lead to liability. That leads to increased safety measures.

 

[DarloRich]

No, you have that 180 degrees wrong. I DO want to engage in facts. It is the H&S "keep us safe" zealots who do not want facts, they're happy with 'better be safe than sorry'.
How many people, say in the last 10 years, have been killed falling onto the track at Manchester Piccadilly ?

You prove my point. You want to chose a metric you think undermines everything but instead show your unwillingness to engage with the subject and your ignorance of the subject. I maintain you simply want to complain that the world has changed and you dont understand it anymore.


Edit: it is also clear you dont like being told what to do by people you consider beneath you.

 

[skyhigh]

Accidents lead to liability. That leads to increased safety measures.

And the legislative background in this country (thankfully) means you can't acknowledge a risk exists and just do nothing about it.

 

[jh64]

If I hear that one more time I will soddin' scream, I have actually got more than two brain cells to rub together thanks, and people who haven't (e.g. kids under about 12) are not generally let out on their own......
But the $£64,000 question is : why has it been safe for over 150 years and now, apparently, it is no longer so ?
This is H&S madness gone bonkers, people have to push back against this all who knows where it will end up.
Actually I do know where it will all end up, sooner or later everything will be banned unless specifically allowed "to keep us safe".
Hopefully I'll be dead before that happens.
What else has been safe for 175 years, until recently ?

View attachment 116451


No, far better, get rid of them, and I mean all of them.

'I demand the right to decapitate myself' isn't the most convincing rallying cry I've ever heard.

 

[DelW]

It's purportedly down to crowd control given the narrow nature of platforms 13 & 14. But as you say, it's completely nonsensical given the linespeed is 25mph and it just makes the problem even worse. Funny how on every other equivalent platform around the network and around the world they seem to manage without such nonsenses...

Not forgetting that around Britain there are thousands, possibly millions, of miles of roadside pavements that have lorries, buses and cars passing within a foot or two, often at more than 25mph, yet we don't find it necessary to paint yellow and red lines down all of those. Which is just as well, since if lines were to be painted at the same offset as those in the OP, most pavements would have to be closed completely.

 

[Ken H]

...]




Accidents lead to liability. That leads to increased safety measures.

Thats the nub. It will be insurance companies driving much of this, not legislation. Its far too easy to make a vexatious claim these days with no win no fee. Companies usually pay out on such claims because its too expensive to defend. So the erect signs to try and reduce exposure to such claims. Broken legal system.

 

[Justin Smith]

It wasn't safe, ever, people were regularly killed and more frequently injured.

How many people have been killed ?

You prove my point. You want to chose a metric you think undermines everything but instead show your unwillingness to engage with the subject and your ignorance of the subject.

No, you prove my point, you have not answered the question. You said I was not interested in facts, so how many people have been killed at Manchester Piccadilly in the last 10 years ? :

To all Health & Safety edicts we should ask exactly how much safer will this make us ?
And what are we sacrificing to achieve that ?