All railway ticket offices in England to close?

[yorkie]

...and kids old enough to travel alone can have debit cards or prepaid cards. ...

They can, but I am not sure how many do. If I remember, I can get you a rough answer on this within a day or two.

That said, this isn't really relevant to whether ticket offices close or not; the railway is going to have to continue to accept cash for the forseeable future and people unable to buy before boarding are entitled to buy on the train (or at the first alternative opportunity).

TOD is a nuisance and needs to go away. Buy online and print/put on your phone, or buy at the TVM and get it there. Most TVMs now do advances.

Agreed.

I will pass, as too many people on here cannot accept that revenue neutral or slightly revenue positive is the only way this will happen, which will mean winners and losers, and people on here cannot accept that those who can presently benefit from "niches" in the present complex system will be the main losers.

Ha! That's fine, I am sure someone else will create a thread before too long/ I am not going to comment further on your post because this isn't the right thread for it.

 

[Kilopylae]

Do you live in the same country as me? Kids have had savings bank accounts for years (I had one in the 80s), and kids old enough to travel alone can have debit cards or prepaid cards. And cash is dying - at different rates, I will give you - in London it is in its final death throes.

Any kid that doesn't have a bank account and is old enough to be out on their own needs one - it is that simple!

Even earlier in life they should be encouraged to save in an "adult" way in a bank account to learn about how to manage money.

As a teenager in the 2010s, I only knew two fellow teenagers who had bank cards, and I opened my first account when I was eighteen. It might be a regional thing.

As for cash, that certainly is regional. My local fish and chip shop only started to accept cards during COVID, and a local community festival I just saw on Facebook said cash only for tickets. Yet at least half of the TVMs in the same region don't take cash (and the other half spit out banknotes for even the tiniest crease...)

TOD is a nuisance and needs to go away. Buy online and print/put on your phone, or buy at the TVM and get it there. Most TVMs now do advances.

But I like CCSTs. Point taken though, it's really on my own head if I decide to collect at the station for no reason other than irrational preference, especially with an iffy card.

 

[windingroad]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion among those who (like me) support the strikes, but is closing all the ticket offices really such a bad thing, provided redundancies are voluntary and remaining staff are redeployed? As long as automated purchasing facilities are intuitive enough for all to use, staffed offices don't really fulfill any distinct purpose as far as I can see.

 

[yorkie]

But, with respect, you are a ticketing expert - you run seminars on the subject.
But an occasional user would be confused.

How would they? It's simply a case of go to a website, put your origin and your destination, select the itinerary and make the purchase.

Providing you use a decent website, there should be no issues.

Yes some websites aren't great but there's plenty of choice; the website I use is straightforward and friends/family members/colleagues I've shown it to have not had any problems using it, so it's not just me.

What proportion of sales do you think are made online these days? I think you may be surprised!

 

[AlterEgo]

But replacing a once staffed station with a casual part time security guard is far insuperior.

No it isn't if you use stations with a significant antisocial behaviour problem.

 

[Philip]

I wouldn't take the report literally about every office closing, at least not within the next few years; clearly this is the government playing a few mind games with the unions, workers and passengers in relation to the strike action.
As pointed out in this thread, practically it will be a disaster if you forced passengers to do it all themselves either via a TVM or online. I speak from experience and the number of people who come to the office with problems resulting from their online ticket purchase or TVM purchase is high - higher now than it was 10 years ago, despite the 'advancement' in technology. Even a fares simplification will not resolve these problems. There are people on this thread who seem to have all the answers, but they are idealistic rather than the reality.

I know of a major station which is due to have it's booking office moved to a different location; one that is more visible, easier to access and so presumably will be more customer-friendly as a result. These plans wouldn't be afoot if it was at risk of closure within the next year or so.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd be interested to hear whether people think Sweden is some sort of railway disaster for closing 100% of its ticket offices.

 

[HSTEd]

Is there any estimate of how many full time equivalents work in ticket offices on the UK rail asystem?

 

[windingroad]

As pointed out in this thread, practically it will be a disaster if you forced passengers to do it all themselves either via a TVM or online. I speak from experience and the number of people who come to the office with problems resulting from their online ticket purchase or TVM purchase is high. Even a fares simplification will not resolve these problems. There are people on this thread who seem to have all the answers, but they are idealistic rather than the reality.

I defer to your experience, but how do you reconcile this with the large number of unstaffed stations? Passengers seem to cope with these without any major problems, and ultimately if you need to speak to a person, does it need to be at the station itself (as opposed to a phone line, for example)?

 

[yorkie]

.... the number of people who come to the office with problems resulting from their online ticket purchase or TVM purchase is high....

But when passengers have problems with ticket collection, it is all too often the case that the ticket office staff say they can't (or won't) help. This is despite the procedures clearly stating they should do. Sometimes it's poor training, sometimes a lack of having the right systems, and perhaps other reasons too.

We've seen many threads on that subject and passengers can be simply told o contact the retailer.

Now if the ticket offices consistently did the job as described in the procedures, I'd accept your point. But that doesn't tend to happen, in so many cases that I've been made aware of.

Even a fares simplification will not resolve these problems. There are people on this thread who seem to have all the answers, but they are idealistic rather than the reality.

That is true; fares amplification is a whole new topic and I don't think is related to whether or not ticket offices close or stay open. At least not when the information available from ticket offices is not consistently accurate by any means.

I know of a major station which is due to have it's booking office moved to a different location; one that is more visible, easier to access and so presumably will be more customer-friendly as a result. These plans wouldn't be afoot if it was at risk of closure within the next year or so.

I agree that there is no chance of all ticket offices closing within the next year. Smaller ones, maybe. But the larger ones? Not going to happen for a while yet, and when it does it'll probably be a move to the LU style of TVMs having a staff mode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that there is no chance of all ticket offices closing within the next year. Smaller ones, maybe. But the larger ones? Not going to happen for a while yet, and when it does it'll probably be a move to the LU style of TVMs having a staff mode.

And nothing in the story says they will close that soon. It just says starting in September. I would expect a progressive closure based on voluntary redundancy, early retirement and natural wastage, starting with smaller stations or stations undergoing major refurbishment. I would be amazed to see compulsory redundancies even though it would be easy enough to do because of the minimal impact of a ticket office staff strike.

 

[Philip]

I defer to your experience, but how do you reconcile this with the large number of unstaffed stations? Passengers seem to cope with these without any major problems, and ultimately if you need to speak to a person, does it need to be at the station itself (as opposed to a phone line, for example)?

The busier stations of course have higher numbers of passengers needing to buy or collect tickets, so higher numbers of passengers with the ticket problems. Also the quiet unstaffed stations tend to be two platforms with an hourly or half-hourly hourly service with one TOC, usually without junctions to complicate matters - so this makes both using the station and buying the ticket a lot more straightforward.

I have worked at two major stations and have found that passengers who normally travel from a quiet outstation often travel to ourselves (the bigger station) for help and advice whenever they require a more complicated ticket or if they have a problem with an existing ticket, or if they are having problems buying online.

 

[windingroad]

The more I think about this, the more I think it's a good idea, particularly for smaller stations. It reduces costs and increases income by providing a space that can be used for things like coffee shops, which also improves the overall atmosphere of the station (something that is badly needed in some cases). The staff could even be offered roles in said coffee shops, if they want them.

 

[AlterEgo]

The staff could even be offered roles in said coffee shops, if they want them.

Much better to have them as general station staff, roaming, being present, assisting with TVMs or selling tickets from a handheld machine, dissuading ASB, and even helping with dispatch if so qualified.

No reason whatsoever for staff to be locked behind glass like exotic birds, selling elementary tickets.

 

[skyhigh]

I know of a major station which is due to have it's booking office moved to a different location; one that is more visible, easier to access and so presumably will be more customer-friendly as a result. These plans wouldn't be afoot if it was at risk of closure within the next year or so.

When were these plans made?

Everything is up in the air. With the DfT and Treasury in control plans are changing on a weekly basis.

Just because something was suggested a few months ago it doesn't necessarily mean it's actually going to happen.

 

[windingroad]

Much better to have them as general station staff, roaming, being present, assisting with TVMs or selling tickets from a handheld machine, dissuading ASB, and even helping with dispatch if so qualified.

No reason whatsoever for staff to be locked behind glass like exotic birds, selling elementary tickets.

That's a fair point, and I'd tend to agree, but I was assuming (possibly wrongly) that part of the impetus for closing the offices was to reduce staffing costs. From a cost saving point of view I could see it being hard to justify redeploying people to roles which don't generate much revenue.

 

[theageofthetra]

No it isn't if you use stations with a significant antisocial behaviour problem.

So barrier it fully and keep the garbage out.

 

[Cambus731]

I’ve been sold the wrong ticket at a TO before resulting in an unsavoury encounter with a guard, although that situation was resolved reasonably after I explained it.

On a second occasion I was given attitude from a TO employee and incorrectly told that my ticket wasn’t valid, I would need a new one and couldn’t travel without a new ticket. I eventually got a refund (and more), but I didn’t particularly enjoy being humiliated in front of a long queue due to only one window being open at an airport station.

Interesting. Was this a ticket that you'd just purchased? or was it a TOD you had collected? What occasionally happens with collecting a TOD at an airport station is that the passenger's plane arrived late and the ticket was an advance one. And not all staff seem to be aware of one of the rules regarding advance tickets in that once the the scheduled time of departure of the first reserved train has departed, then the ticket ceases to be valid throughout. I've seen an RPI erronously advise the passenger that they can still use the first (non reserved) part of the ticket, say from Stansted Airport to Liverpool Street, after the time of departure of the first reserved train eg Paddington to Bristol Parkway. This is inaccurate. Was the scenario you were involved in along these lines?

 

[ChrisC]

I very rarely use a ticket office these days except when I am buying a rover or ranger ticket. I much prefer to buy my tickets online, usually using Trainsplit, or from the TVM at my local unstaffed station. The TVM is much more useful now that it easily allows you to buy tickets from other stations. When I know exactly what ticket I want to buy it is often much easier to sort it out myself rather than have to explain to someone in a ticket office.

The important point here is that before I buy my ticket online or even more importantly before I go to the TVM I have already done my research and know exactly what I want and the price. I usually know what I am doing but those not so confident could easily pay more than they need to or buy invalid tickets for the route they want to travel. I was nearly caught out by this at the TVM at my local station a few weeks ago where the machine offered me a very confusing choice of tickets. Only by having done online research and knowing the exact price could I buy the more flexible any permitted ticket, which was actually the cheapest option.

 

[Kite159]

But how much does having a member of staff at a Merseryrail station prevent serious anti social behaviour and reduce the fear of crime? Fair bit I reckon.

Depends on the location of the ticket office and if the member of staff has CCTV of the platforms available (or even a view of the platforms).

A station like Sandhills feels unsafe when interchanging due to the anti social behaviour.

------

As for ticket offices, I only use them when buying a ranger/rover ticket. Either buying my tickets online to collect via TOD, using e-tickets [when available] or using the "buy from another station" function on the local card-only TVM (the cash function has been 'unavailable' for several months now).

 

[Gems]

Do any of you actually understand the issue with e tickets. Do you know why we scan them?

 

[JonathanH]

Do any of you actually understand the issue with e tickets. Do you know why we scan them?

How much fraud do you actually encounter?

 

[Kite159]

Do any of you actually understand the issue with e tickets. Do you know why we scan them?

The key advantage from the TOC will be to have a mark on that ticket at which train it was scanned on, to prevent fraud from someone with an open ticket trying to claim delay repay from a train they weren't on.

Or for some places getting a refund from an unscanned ticket.

 

[matacaster]

Some great ideas but the current plans which have been widely reported are to save circa £600 million from staffing wern't they?

Any ideas of floating roles or more police could well be a drop in the ocean even if they did happen.

What I can say from a personal point of view re anti social crime in quiet urban or semi urban locations during hours of darkness, is that I personally feel miles better when there are staff present in any form.

Whenever I've stayed out late in Blackpool on the weekend when the lights are on, the stewards at the tram stops make waiting there bearable. They seem to calm down any over boisterous behaviour by just being visible there. If they weren't there, sometimes I think I'd have to wait a hundred yards down the prom until I could see the tram until I went and stood at the actual stop because of some of the groups you see waiting there.

My parents would never use the train after say 7 or 8 o clock for fear of crime. De-staffing any more locations just isn't going to help with the fear of crime. Merseryrail stations without any staff in darker hours just aren't going to scream out that they're safe for anyone who's a little less confident or vulnerable in any way. We should be aiming for an environment where all people of all sexes and anyone vulnerable should be able to be without chance or fear of crime. De staffing some locations just wouldn't help with this imo.

The price of alcohol in Sweden tends to make getting drunk very expensive, so they tend not to.

 

[crablab]

It would not be hard to just let the small number of people who wish to assist a friend/relative, access facilities or spot trains through the barriers.

Sure
I've only bought a platform ticket once (to meet friends on a delayed train on the platform) and it took a lot of searching through the TIS, wouldn't go through gatelines and gateline staff had no idea what it was... Nevertheless, it is a ticket that exists and you can buy - alongside a lot of other "edge" cases (I note you omitted my reference to CIVs - a very useful and practical ticket).

The point I'm trying to make is there are lots of apparently "edge cases" which need to be resolved or removed, before you can entirely get rid of ticket offices.

For example:
- CIV
- platform tickets
- warrants
- rovers, rangers etc. (as pointed out before)
- excess fares
- heritage rail tickets
- refunds (eg. bought wrong ticket at TVM)

I think you resolve these issues by radically simplying the fares system and removing the complexity - some of these things are archaric and quaint but completely inappropriate in a modern railway that needs to cater for the needs of most people.

I accept what's been said before about staff training and ticket offices not necessarily being able to help with complex ticketing issues...but I think that's more the fault of the system, than the staff.

Eg. I learned today that you can excess a single to a return fare, "at the earliest opportunity" if you so desired. How many people would have known that was possible?!

Do any of you actually understand the issue with e tickets. Do you know why we scan them?

Presumably that they can be bought once and used by multiple people?
Which is why they are scanned, to clip them, AIUI.

 

[Bill57p9]

Personally I am a fan of technology and tend to prefer online or TVMs. When in a supermarket I tend to use the self service checkouts.
However there are circumstances where some sort of human booking service is required:

• Excesses (rare, yes - but they are there)
• Railcards - Not everyone is computer/internet literate
• Complex itineraries - Ever tried booking a break of journey online?!?
• Combinations not covered by TVM - an example I experienced was through tickets to Eskdale & Ravenglass Railway
• Anyone not familiar with some of the nuances ("you can get a cheaper ticket if you're happy to wait an extra 15 minutes")
• Possibly customers with certain disabilities?

I have also experienced some brain dead online sales - such as seat reservations with my child & I sat apart without good reason. And that just puts people off.

Now that isn't to say that the traditional ticket office couldn't be streamlined - maybe multi-skilled station staff are the way forward.

 

[Train2London]

The low-cost airlines (easyJet, RyanAir etc) seemed to have successfully managed to 'train' their customers into exclusively e-ticketing/print at home type system and even the not so low cost airlines were moving to self service checkin machines (till covid came and added loads of hassle that has to be checked by a human)
Granted you cannot quite compare international air travel with domestic rail - rail should be simpler and more accessible.
Ironically many of the low cost fares are much cheaper than long distance rail travel in the UK, which is probably discussion for elsewhere, more that the irony to me is that airlines show up rail by offering cheaper tickets and really embracing e-ticketing (because it is cheaper/more profit for them)

 

[miklcct]

My local station is ungated all the time, has only a TVM and everyone seems to manage just fine.

My local station with a ticket office is staffed by miserable, unhelpful staff and is usually empty.

My nearest city ticket office is notorious for trying not to sell tickets they don’t like the idea of…

The only ticket office that seems busy when I pass is the Northern one at Leeds, but that’s possibly because they never seem to have enough windows open.

Southern have demonstrated that it is viable to have staffed barriers at many stations, including smaller stations, throughout the period when trains are running. If a 'small village station' is enough of a worry to have fare evasion, it is entirely appropriate to install a gateline and have it staffed first to last train.

The Southern TOCs certainly has much better service than the Northern ones!

As an outsider to this - why can't there just be a mass expansion of contactless?
It works so well in London. Train, tube, bus, whatever, hop on, hop off, and you get charged at 4am or whatever as per your use.

Going outside London feels like stepping back in time 25 years, especially busses!

I can see still some need for 'tickets' especially longer journeys which will I guess be cheaper in advance.
For those, the ticket could be
-An online ticket printed at home
-An online ticket on a phone app, saved PDF etc
-A printed ticket from a vending machine, either via card or cash
They key thing is that the ticket format does not matter, it should just be a QR code, either from the machine or your phone etc.

Surely that must cover 99.9% of the population?
Discounts such as OAP rail cards should be either done via some app, or staff at stations could help people, in the same way staff help/check age when you buy alcohol at self service checkout.

That's what I feel as well. It's like stepping back in time decades once outside London.

But back to the topic.

When the ticket office is closed how do passengers find assistance?

For example, in Hong Kong, ticket offices don't sell normal (single) tickets. However, it is the contact point for any ticketing problems or passenger enquiries as it's the place where the staff is located apart from the station manager (who isn't passenger-facing but mainly for safety and operational reason). Ticket offices also sell season tickets, visitor tickets, first class tickets for travelling on East Rail Line first class from a non-East Rail Line station, Octopus cards, top up special Octopus cards which can't be done on the TVMs, etc. Some newer stations don't have ticket offices but a help point is available there, however this results in some ticketing operations not being able to be done at those stations.

I will say that it's impractical to get rid of all ticket offices. There should be one every few stations apart where staff can be easily contacted or dispatched for assistance.

 

[leytongabriel]

I defer to your experience, but how do you reconcile this with the large number of unstaffed stations? Passengers seem to cope with these without any major problems, and ultimately if you need to speak to a person, does it need to be at the station itself (as opposed to a phone line, for example)?

One of the reasons for the decline of the Goblin line and its subsquent resurreection was people's reluctance to use unstaffed stations in an urban area and Ken Livingstone's pledge that Overground stations would always have a member of staff on duty. Just today there was a problem on the DLR when a mentally unwell homeless man in a rather distressed state kept getting on and off trains, with nobody at stations to intervene.

 

[PeterC]

I know of a major station which is due to have it's booking office moved to a different location; one that is more visible, easier to access and so presumably will be more customer-friendly as a result. These plans wouldn't be afoot if it was at risk of closure within the next year or so.

The cynical amongst us would regard that as a sure sign that it was about to close.