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The "morality" of not sharing loophole tickets publicly

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furlong

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Oooh, I have touched a nerve here, haven't I?

Looks like it!

But the major flaws in the system were known and pointed out even before it came into existence in the late-90s. The early half-hearted efforts to fix a few of the problems soon fizzled out. Later some TOCs worked out various ways to exploit the system to increase their revenue share at the expense of other TOCs and all sorts of new complexities got introduced, some improving the situation, but most in my opinion making a bad system worse.

My own uninformed view is that all ticket retailers are already obliged under current legislation always to show people, as a minimum, the cheapest option for their journey. The complexity of the system doesn't offer any excuse. TOCs that are moving into the split ticketing arena perhaps understand this better and are trying harder to meet their obligations than the rest, but I haven't come across any site that would fully comply with this perceived legal requirement. It would mean both ignoring the many incorrect so-called "unpublished" restrictions that do not match the true restrictions, and supporting incomplete use of a ticket where that would be cheaper. Indeed the Rail Regulator was reported as making clear in the early days that a more expensive fare should not exist and certainly never be sold if there was a cheaper fare with equal or greater validity.

The powers that be have shown little interest in dealing with much of this and the system just muddles along, tweaking a few things here and there when they seem important enough. The eventual outcome of https://boundaryfares.com/ might also help to settle these wider questions, such as: If a through ticket from A to B to C is cheaper than a ticket from A to B is a retailer obliged to offer it for a journey from A to B? (My answer would be 'yes'. We hear from time-to-time of booking office clerks who actively do this but in my view all the computer systems must too. Train companies might want to have anomalies for particular markets but I don't think the current legal framework provides support for everything they are doing.)

Remember this?

5 November 1998

Dear Mr Feather
...
The NRG is being automated as part of a new Journey Information System due for implementation next year. This will provide speedier and more comprehensive train timetable, fares, ticket and routeing information, benefiting customers and ticket/enquiry office staff alike.

You will be pleased to hear that, as part of this automation process, the NRG is being scrutinised to discover and correct any anomalies. Once the Journey Information System is in operation, you will be able to obtain appropriate routeing information for any rail journey that you are planning.

or this?

Rail Routeing Guide

HC Deb 18 November 1996 vol 285 c412W 412W

§ Mr. Chidgey

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will use his powers under the Railway Act 1993 before the end of 1996 to give guidance to the Rail Regulator that the routeing guide must not restrict reasonable routes to any greater extent than was the case before the guide came into effect. [4549]

§ Mr. Watts

The routeing guide has been issued on a trial basis until May 1997, to give an opportunity for errors and omissions to be corrected. The Rail Regulator and the Franchising Director have already given assurances that they will not approve a guide which unduly restricts the routeing flexibility that passengers enjoy.

Does it still unduly restrict some fastest routes?

Or even what about just this?

The National Conditions of Carriage require precise definition of the routes rail travellers may use for a journey. These routes are known as "permitted routes". The National Routeing Guide enables users to determine whether their proposed journey follows a "permitted route".

Precise definition. Simples!
 
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tomuk

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In my view the routing guide and its associated rules should scrapped and replaced with a machine readable list of valid routes. It is an anachronism of a pre computer age. The "unpublished" restrictions should be the restrictions.
 

Jason12

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My own uninformed view is that all ticket retailers are already obliged under current legislation always to show people, as a minimum, the cheapest option for their journey. The complexity of the system doesn't offer any excuse. TOCs that are moving into the split ticketing arena perhaps understand this better and are trying harder to meet their obligations than the rest, but I haven't come across any site that would fully comply with this perceived legal requirement. It would mean both ignoring the many incorrect so-called "unpublished" restrictions that do not match the true restrictions, and supporting incomplete use of a ticket where that would be cheaper. Indeed the Rail Regulator was reported as making clear in the early days that a more expensive fare should not exist and certainly never be sold if there was a cheaper fare with equal or greater validity.

I would not say the output from current routeing guide is complex. Using the few basic rules and the relatively small amount of data contained in a zip file, the set of permitted routes can be determined for any priced fare (route code) between any station pair, A and B. By using redundancy inherent in the map searching algorithm, the result can be stored in a relatively compact form. But it's just a set of unique permitted routes and each permitted route is just an ordered list of stations. So the data structure is relatively simple. If you want to know whether a priced fare from A to B is valid via X to Y, all you need to do is search each route in the set of permitted routes to see if both X and Y stations are there and in the right order.

The difficulty lies in the number of unique permitted routes which the current routing guide generates for some station pairs. I was just choosing a few random pairs of stations to crunch all the routes for, and I think the winner of that little contest was Falkirk to Ramsgate, with well over 100 million unique routes parped out by the routeing guide. But you could in principle search through them all to see whether that fare was valid between Drem and Whitstable, or not. And then repeat the process for every other priced fare in the manual to build the list of fares which were valid for Drem to Whitstable. And then offer the customer the cheapest of those, or indeed use the full spread of cross-valid fares as the base for a split ticket search.

But if you seriously wanted to be able to offer the customer the cheapest fare you would not build the routeing guide in its current needle in a haystack form. Instead you would incorporate some relationship between the routeings for priced fares from A to B and those from X to Y, so they could be searched for cross-validity and split-validity in a much more efficient manner. That relationship would have to be logical though, and that might ride roughshod over some historical routeings and relationships between fares that would not be appreciated.
 
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DelayRepay

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I'd like to make a slightly different point if I may.

Some of the 'loophole' fares, whilst technically valid, are likely to result in tickets that don't open barriers, and are likely to be challenged by on-train staff. Whilst these fares are valid, the person using them needs to be prepared to respond to such challenges. They need to have a good understanding of why their ticket is valid, and be assertive enough to explain this. Not everyone would be happy to 'risk' using such tickets.

If these fares were shared in public, it would result in some people having an unpleasant experience and not really being able to deal with it - 'I read about it on a forum' is unlikely to convince an RPI that your ticket is valid when they think it isn't.

So I personally wouldn't share this kind of fare in public because I wouldn't want the responsibility of people finding themselves in an awkward situation. It's not worth the hassle.

It shouldn't be like this, staff should recognise when a ticket is valid (even if it's technically an issuing error which is the fault of the retailer and not the passenger). In practice they don't - there is evidence of this in the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum if people care to look.
 

embers25

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I'd like to make a slightly different point if I may.

Some of the 'loophole' fares, whilst technically valid, are likely to result in tickets that don't open barriers, and are likely to be challenged by on-train staff. Whilst these fares are valid, the person using them needs to be prepared to respond to such challenges. They need to have a good understanding of why their ticket is valid, and be assertive enough to explain this. Not everyone would be happy to 'risk' using such tickets.

If these fares were shared in public, it would result in some people having an unpleasant experience and not really being able to deal with it - 'I read about it on a forum' is unlikely to convince an RPI that your ticket is valid when they think it isn't.

So I personally wouldn't share this kind of fare in public because I wouldn't want the responsibility of people finding themselves in an awkward situation. It's not worth the hassle.

It shouldn't be like this, staff should recognise when a ticket is valid (even if it's technically an issuing error which is the fault of the retailer and not the passenger). In practice they don't - there is evidence of this in the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum if people care to look.
Agree with this. Also, is it morally acceptable that, for example, SWR charge more to Woking than from Woking. The same ticket type used to be almost double.

Also, Jason12, who is clearly just stirring the pot by his comments so far, just said in the same post that he would not say the output from current routeing guide is complex, whilst highlighting the millions of Falkirk ti Ransgarte routes!
 

Jason12

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Also, Jason12, who is clearly just stirring the pot by his comments so far, just said in the same post that he would not say the output from current routeing guide is complex, whilst highlighting the millions of Falkirk ti Ransgarte routes!

I could show you some data structures which are complex. The 100m plus routes between Falkirk and Ramsgate isn't complex. It' s a set of lists of stations, which is not as simple as it gets, but pretty close. But I will grant you that 100m plus is is quite a lot to scroll through if they were to be offered to you as a set, or carry around in your head as individual routes if you're an inspector checking tickets.

But I agree with the point about using fares which are any way out of the ordinary and the worry some people would have that they are going to be challenged. It's another good reason for there being a definitive list or process to check the routes on which any specific ticket is valid. But having such a list or check is not compatible with the need for the full validity of certain "good value fares" not to be made public.
 
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embers25

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I could show you some data structures which are complex. The 100m plus routes between Falkirk and Ramsgate isn't complex. It' s a set of lists of stations, which is not as simple as it gets, but pretty close. But I will grant you that 100m plus is is quite a lot to scroll through if they were to be offered to you as a set, or carry around in your head as individual routes if you're an inspector checking tickets.
I'm well aware of complex data structures but this is a guide for use supposedly by anyone, including those without a PC and if any system for rail fares creates that many options for one pair it's too complex.
 

Haywain

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Let's take Southampton - London Terminals season ticket as an example. Southampton is well outside the London commuter area so it's unlikely that people will use the ticket for commuting.
This is nonsense. Southampton is just over an hour away from London and many people commute over that and much longer distances and journey times. Whilst some season tickets can make good rover-type tickets the number of people using them that way is minuscule.
 

akm

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I'm well aware of complex data structures but this is a guide for use supposedly by anyone, including those without a PC and if any system for rail fares creates that many options for one pair it's too complex.
I suspect you and Jason12 have different ideas about what 'complex' means here. Would you regard a list of the first trillion even numbers as 'complex'? I wouldn't, I suspect Jason12 wouldn't either. 'Long list' doesn't necessarily equal 'complex'.
 

RJ

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I'd like to make a slightly different point if I may.

Some of the 'loophole' fares, whilst technically valid, are likely to result in tickets that don't open barriers, and are likely to be challenged by on-train staff. Whilst these fares are valid, the person using them needs to be prepared to respond to such challenges. They need to have a good understanding of why their ticket is valid, and be assertive enough to explain this. Not everyone would be happy to 'risk' using such tickets.

If these fares were shared in public, it would result in some people having an unpleasant experience and not really being able to deal with it - 'I read about it on a forum' is unlikely to convince an RPI that your ticket is valid when they think it isn't.

So I personally wouldn't share this kind of fare in public because I wouldn't want the responsibility of people finding themselves in an awkward situation. It's not worth the hassle.

It shouldn't be like this, staff should recognise when a ticket is valid (even if it's technically an issuing error which is the fault of the retailer and not the passenger). In practice they don't - there is evidence of this in the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum if people care to look.

That’s up to individuals to use their own life experiences to navigate those situations. If you warn people that staff might treat tickets unfamiliar to them as not valid that’s all you can do.

I note we haven't yet moved on to another significant reason why loophole tickets exist, namely the different restriction codes applied by the pricers in different TOCs for journeys over the same core length of track at particular times of day e.g. where TOC A requires Anytime tickets to be held and TOC B is comfortable with Off Peak tickets (with no break of journey restrictions) being used . There's plenty of fun to be had with this single variable. :D

That sort of thing is known about and the powers that be don’t like people doing it. If anybody wants any inspiration not to publicise them, look at restriction code BT.You’ll find there’s a special set of restrictions added to what used to be a simple code because I happened to find a load of tickets which helped to slash the cost of my London to Loughborough commute in the AM peak. That was a shortest route based find.

Meanwhile there are definitely some unintentional ones lurking in there - one I use occasionally to swere evening pick restrictions out of one London Terminal only exists because of a dodgy parameter set in a distant part of the fares database!

In fact most evening peak period levies out of London can be avoided by use of cheaper off peak fares for an array of reasons, some simpler than others.
 
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tspaul26

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Do you have a reference saying this? The online Routeing Guide instructions seem to say nothing on it other than where London is involved.
It’s in Section A of the Guide:

Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect thee routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.
 

yorkie

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In my view the routing guide and its associated rules should scrapped and replaced with a machine readable list of valid routes. It is an anachronism of a pre computer age. The "unpublished" restrictions should be the restrictions.
The routeing guide is machine readable.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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That's about the most poorly-written thing I've ever seen, but it does indeed appear to say that on the face of it. Took me 3 reads to get it, though.
I was just thinking that. They need some commas in there to make it understandable! :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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The routeing guide is machine readable.

It is, though it's got very messy and probably isn't very effective at serving the purpose it serves now, being full of "easements" and "dis-easements" to try to bodge it into doing what is wanted. It also lacks the intuitive feature of recursiveness, that is, if you've got A-B-(C/D)-E-F and B-E is permitted via either C or D, then it's silly that A-F is not also permitted via C or D, but very often it's not.
 

tspaul26

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It's another good reason for there being a definitive list or process to check the routes on which any specific ticket is valid.
There is: it’s called the National Rail Timetable and the National Routeing Guide.
 

pne

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if you've got A-B-(C/D)-E-F and B-E is permitted via either C or D, then it's silly that A-F is not also permitted via C or D, but very often it's not
If someone travelling from A to F did want the flexibility to travel via either C or D, could they do so by purchasing a ticket from A to B, one from B to E, and one from E to F rather than a straight "A to F" ticket?

Or would the fact that their intended journey is from A to F preclude this use of split ticketing?
 

AlterEgo

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Let's take Southampton - London Terminals season ticket as an example. Southampton is well outside the London commuter area so it's unlikely that people will use the ticket for commuting.
Some people do commute from Southampton to London.

However, this ticket comes with a large number of permitted routes covering as north as Basingstoke and Reading, and as south as Brighton and Hove. Therefore I believe the demographic of such season tickets is for businessmen who have a client base all over Hampshire and Surrey, and requiring frequent travel between clients.
It isn't. You are extrapolating the terms and conditions of the ticket and assuming they were designed with a type of person in mind. The existence of break of journey on season tickets is just one of those things.
 

Bletchleyite

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If someone travelling from A to F did want the flexibility to travel via either C or D, could they do so by purchasing a ticket from A to B, one from B to E, and one from E to F rather than a straight "A to F" ticket?

Or would the fact that their intended journey is from A to F preclude this use of split ticketing?

While I don't want to head this off on a massive subthread, nor do I really think there's enough in that for a separate thread, it's more about keeping the system intuitive and reducing the amount of maintenance required on it than whether someone might particularly often want to do that. The Guide is already partly recursive in that if you have a routed fare you can use Permitted Routes to/from the route station as well as through ones that pass through it, plus if travelling via London you always break it in two and calculate the two bits, but it'd be simpler if that just applied everywhere, and it would cause very little silliness requiring (dis-)easements compared with the maps.

The maps were designed for a person to read them. Like almost anything, they can be ingested by a machine and processed, as they are by all the journey planners. But like the whole thing about implementing Oyster on top of a zonal fare system designed for paper tickets, they're sub-optimal for machine processing.

With regard to your second question yes, you can split like that if you wish provided the train stops, but it does make it rather expensive to do it in only one direction of a return journey or to decide to do it after you've started.
 
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JB_B

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If you found a way to cheat in exams in school, would you tell everyone in your class? I wouldn't think so because otherwise it would be fixed. However, others in the class can find out about the way to cheat themselves if they look in the right places. The same concept applies here.

I see the point you're making but I think this an unfortunate analogy.

Cheating in exams is dishonest and unethical. I don't think seeking out anomalous fares is either of those.
 

Bletchleyite

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I see the point you're making but I think this an unfortunate analogy.

Cheating in exams is dishonest and unethical. I don't think seeking out anomalous fares is either of those.

Cheating in an exam is like tax evasion - breaking the rules.
Finding anomalous fares is like tax avoidance - paying the lowest tax possible while complying with the rules.

The first is not OK, the second is fine. Who would pay more tax than they were required to pay? (If anyone says "me", then donate it to charity, it will have far more benefit).

With regard to exams it's a bit more like using exam technique to pass an exam you didn't necessarily know the content of very well, which might feel a bit naughty but is perfectly legitimate and not cheating. For instance, when doing a multiple choice exam it's not at all unusual for it to be the case that one question gives a clue to the answer to another. You're required to pass the exam without outside information being provided to you, not to know the content. If you pass the exam without knowing the content (even if you do it by guessing randomly and are lucky), you've still passed it.
 

trebor79

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It would be complex, but hardly impossible, to write a piece of software that found anomalous fares. But clearly the rail industry has decided not to do so and so it's wrong to say that they are aware of what the anomalies are. They know that anomalies exist, but they don't know what they are.
I think it would be quite difficult to find all of the anomalies. Firstly, how do you decide it's an anomaly, and having found them, what do you do about them? It's the kind of thing that needs someone to think about it rather than just have a machine go "Anomaly, this fare needs to be removed/increased in price".

Please can someone explain what a loophole is without giving any locations away? Is it like a fare that’s been accidentally priced for say £5 when it should be more like £30? Or are they less extreme than that?
To reveal an example that has been "fixed". Diss to London return is over £100. A Diss to Cuffley "not via London" return was £60-something. Just make sure you're on a train that calls at Stratford, then a quick ride on the Central Line into town.
That ticket doesn't exist anymore, it's now "via Cambridge".

But that's OK as I have an alternative even cheaper route to London.
 

yorkie

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If someone travelling from A to F did want the flexibility to travel via either C or D, could they do so by purchasing a ticket from A to B, one from B to E, and one from E to F rather than a straight "A to F" ticket?

Or would the fact that their intended journey is from A to F preclude this use of split ticketing?
I don't like doing algebra but if you have something specific in mind, feel free to create a thread.

I see the point you're making but I think this an unfortunate analogy.

Cheating in exams is dishonest and unethical. I don't think seeking out anomalous fares is either of those.
Agreed; it's not cheating and is totally legiimate; it's more akin to someone doing more revision for the exam than someone else.
I think it would be quite difficult to find all of the anomalies. Firstly, how do you decide it's an anomaly, and having found them, what do you do about them?
Exactly; no-one can agree on what an "anomaly" is.

If TPE increase the price of their product, but a Northern fare does not increase, it can become cheaper to travel further. Is that an "anomaly"? If so, TPE will probably want it ot be "fixed" by the Northern fare being increased in price, or being restricted in some way.
It's the kind of thing that needs someone to think about it rather than just have a machine go "Anomaly, this fare needs to be removed/increased in price".
Indeed.
To reveal an example that has been "fixed". Diss to London return is over £100. A Diss to Cuffley "not via London" return was £60-something. Just make sure you're on a train that calls at Stratford, then a quick ride on the Central Line into town.
That ticket doesn't exist anymore, it's now "via Cambridge".
It would be useful to do do an FOI request to see if the DfT approved that request. But sadly there is no regulator, ombudsman or passenger advocacy group with any teeth to do anything.
 

Watershed

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Let's take Southampton - London Terminals season ticket as an example. Southampton is well outside the London commuter area so it's unlikely that people will use the ticket for commuting. However, this ticket comes with a large number of permitted routes covering as north as Basingstoke and Reading, and as south as Brighton and Hove. Therefore I believe the demographic of such season tickets is for businessmen who have a client base all over Hampshire and Surrey, and requiring frequent travel between clients.

If break of journey can't be done there is no point in offering long-distance season tickets which fall outside commuting areas.
I'm afraid you have a fundamental misapprehension of the factors that matter to people when deciding whether to buy a particular ticket. I daresay 99% of people wouldn't even think about the permitted routes of a season ticket and whether it would include routes other than those which are 'obvious'.

Pre-Covid there would no doubt have been a sizeable number of Southampton to London 5 day a week commuters, possibly even into the four figures. Even now there will still be some - although probably more who commute 2-4 days a week but for whom the season ticket remains the cheapest option.

The overwhelming majority of frequent business travellers have a car and use it for all their business travel - unless they are travelling to somewhere that is both well-served by rail, and poorly accessed by road (e.g. central London). The idea that a business traveller would hold a Southampton to London season ticket to visit clients around Hampshire and Surrey is frankly hilarious!

It's purely a question of utility. Is a system which allows loopholes, errors and mistakes to exist - and to be exploited as long as they are not exploited widely, fit for purpose? I've heard lots of defences of that arrangement, mostly along the lines that those who use such "good value fares" would lose out should the errors be fixed and/or the loopholes closed.
Again, I don't think anyone is claiming that the current system is truly fit for purpose. But there is no prospect of it being made fit for purpose, given the political bent of the government and most of the British population.

And although there are many flaws with the system, one of its few advantages is the fact that it discriminates based on willingness to pay. Which means that, in general, the maximum amount of revenue is extracted from each potential passenger.

It's an argument for the continuation of a privilege, but without any attempt to justify why that privilege should exist.
It's not though. It's remarking that the existence of good value and/or loophole fares is not concomitant with a lack of sensible validity for certain journeys. You seem to see them as two sides of the same coin - but they simply aren't.

I think it's also wrong to suggest that there is any privilege here. As has been said several times, anyone is able to find these fares with a little time and effort. In principle, I don't see that as any different to how with most utility bills, you can either leave them be and default onto a standard/out of contract price, or if you put a little bit of legwork into it you can compare the offers that are available across the market and go for something cheaper.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is an inherent right to continue to buy loophole fares. When they are found out, they are fixed. That's life.

In my view the routing guide and its associated rules should scrapped and replaced with a machine readable list of valid routes. It is an anachronism of a pre computer age. The "unpublished" restrictions should be the restrictions.
I think that would be acceptable and indeed a good move, provided the replacement included an industry tool that let you enter the details of the ticket you hold (or propose to buy), and then showed you a map of all the permitted routes (including mapped and shortest routes).

However some degree of human-readable text will always be needed for time restrictions, to convey the rules behind them. And this is where making unpublished restrictions the actual ones would be unacceptable; any restrictions that the TOCs want to enforce should have to be in the text.

But it's just a set of unique permitted routes and each permitted route is just an ordered list of stations. So the data structure is relatively simple.
It's not that simple at all when you dig into it. The Routeing Guide maps, for instance, are insufficiently detailed to enable the average person to work out what the validity really is - as not all stations immediately before/after a junction, or at the intersection of different routes, are Routeing Points, so there is a considerable degree of ambiguity. And some maps include stations that aren't Routeing Points (e.g. Harrogate) - even though it's undefined what contractual meaning this has. The use of Routeing Point Groups rather than individual stations also leads to a lot of uncertainty as to exactly what validity exists, or is intended to exist.

Determining the shortest routes based on industry mileage data is also problematic, as it includes links that have no passenger service at all (e.g. via Brigg), no permanently scheduled services (e.g. via Castle Donington), or no usable service (e.g. trains via Hixon towards Stoke do not stop at Rugeley). Which of these can you disregard when determining shortest routes? The Routeing Guide is again silent on this issue.

I could show you some data structures which are complex. The 100m plus routes between Falkirk and Ramsgate isn't complex. It' s a set of lists of stations, which is not as simple as it gets, but pretty close. But I will grant you that 100m plus is is quite a lot to scroll through if they were to be offered to you as a set, or carry around in your head as individual routes if you're an inspector checking tickets.
It's so long that it is patently infeasible for either anyone to have fully understood, let alone memorised, all routes. Whether it's complex or unusably voluminous is splitting hairs.

But I agree with the point about using fares which are any way out of the ordinary and the worry some people would have that they are going to be challenged. It's another good reason for there being a definitive list or process to check the routes on which any specific ticket is valid. But having such a list or check is not compatible with the need for the full validity of certain "good value fares" not to be made public.
There is no "need" for these fares not to be made public. Obviously most sensible people aren't going to voluntarily publicise them, but the industry is at liberty to (euphemistically speaking) "fix" them, as and when it finds them. But clearly it does not see them as a sufficiently important problem to warrant spending the significant amount of time and resources needed to proactively do so. It simply reactively "fixes" them.

There is: it’s called the National Rail Timetable and the National Routeing Guide.
Of course the NRG is highly ambiguous and even contradicts itself in some areas. So there is no clarity whatsoever over whether certain routes are permitted; the NRG is anything but definitive in that sense!
 
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Wallsendmag

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This is nonsense. Southampton is just over an hour away from London and many people commute over that and much longer distances and journey times. Whilst some season tickets can make good rover-type tickets the number of people using them that way is minuscule.
An hour is nothing for a commute, I thought my commute was bad but it's nothing compared to yours.
 

swt_passenger

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Let's take Southampton - London Terminals season ticket as an example. Southampton is well outside the London commuter area so it's unlikely that people will use the ticket for commuting...
I think that’s a total misconception. Southampton is firmly in the longer distance London commuter area, as are Parkway and Winchester. It may have seen less traffic than historic levels for the last couple of years, but over a long period I think you’re completely wrong.
 

ashkeba

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Alternatively, GBR could reduce the standard fares across the board having rooted out anomalies such that there is a 'perfect' system, and such that the change is revenue-neutral, but I suspect an economic analysis of this (and indeed I wrote my dissertation on it) would show that such a change wouldn't be possible; After all, the railways are subsidised already, so revenue will always fall if prices go down (the equilibrium price is higher than the one faced in a regulated industry).
Now, I only studied economic theory to degree level so I am not as learned as you with dissertations and things, but I do not understand how revenue would fall after a revenue-neutral change! Would a fall in revenue not mean that the change was actually revenue-negative? So I think this argument against price simplification does not stand up well.
 

Wolfie

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In my view the routing guide and its associated rules should scrapped and replaced with a machine readable list of valid routes. It is an anachronism of a pre computer age. The "unpublished" restrictions should be the restrictions.
That would be the tail wagging the dog. Why should inability to code something reduce availability?
 

Wolfie

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When implementing a new business computer system, one always obtains the best results when process and tooling meet in the middle.
When l worked for MOD a new off-the-shelf HR system including expense claims was brought in. It couldn't fully apply extant policy hence they tried to cut our T&Cs to match what the system did. Strangely enough a threat of legal action by the TUs soon ended that one.....
 
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