Rail strikes discussion

[Philip]

You are being naive. The Government and media would spin it as greedy unions disrupting major events and they would be believed. Most likely they would dig in even more. How the RMT could lose support very easily.....

It would hit the government hard because of the detrimental effect it would have on the economy, regardless of who the government try to blame. This in itself may well be enough to force the hands of Boris, Sunak and Shapps.

 

[ar10642]

strictly from my pensioner point of view, in your case i hope you do and that the pension age goes up, so when the strike ends, you work long and hard to pay our pensions... disgusted pensioner.

Working age people already are doing that on top of a NI hike to pay for your social care.

Well don't be too surprised if too many people say the same about you and hope that your rent goes up.

They've been doing that for years. Why should I care about them?

 

[Wolfie]

It would hit the government hard because of the detrimental effect it would have on the economy, regardless of who the government try to blame. This in itself may well be enough to force the hands of Boris, Sunak and Shapps.

Sometimes Government does things that are detrimental to the economy in the short term because they regard the long term gains as worthwhile.

 

[dk1]

I think you mean contingent guards. However an all out ASLEF strike would mean absolutely no trains whatsoever.

We have seen no need for the contingent guards so far as fully trained conductor managers have operated the limited service running.

Next Saturday will have all conductors & senior conductors available with driver managers driving a much reduced service I expect to only be routes similar to this week.

 

[Philip]

Sometimes Government does things that are detrimental to the economy in the short term because they regard the long term gains as worthwhile.

I doubt many of the leading figures of this government would be in office to see any long term gains. They are already walking the tightrope and the public are not fools - the government could try blaming the unions and rail workers as much as they like, but it won't wash with many. Yes, the union and rail workers would also lose credibility but don't think for a minute that the government would get away with it. Any disruption to events like the Commonwealth Games because of the government being unreasonable and stingy would likely lead to the PM having to offer his resignation or else be forced out by a no confidence vote; Sunak and Shapps would probably have to resign too.

 

[Watershed]

I would expect another few strike days to be announced on Tuesday, when the RMT's National Executive convenes. These may include the Commonwealth Games period but I would be surprised if they waited that long for their next strike.

Action short of a strike could begin immediately though, and in the case of signallers and other NR staff, would wreak absolute havoc with signal boxes and workstations closing all over the shop. It could cause a tremendous amount of disruption without the same loss of pay as a strike.

This is just nonsense and borders on offensive to me. It might be the attitude for yourself but I can assure you that safety matters a great deal to my colleagues and I.

I'm sure it does but at the end of the day, if a 7% payrise were on the table, I am sure you would not reject it. Hardly anyone would.

Ironically Wedgwood and barlaston are getting a normal service - the Hanley - Stoke - Stone replacement bus is showing on the departure boards at sot

It's an ordinary bus service which happens to be included in the rail timetable and have certain rail fares that are valid on it. So yes, one of the few times where not having a rail service has benefitted Wedgwood and Barlaston!

The collective noun for working class people could be union.

The vast majority of people, working class or otherwise, are not in a union. Unions will always look after their members' interest before anything else.

That's fine, indeed you wouldn't expect anything else. But let's skip the moralising and pretending that it's some moral battle on behalf of others.

 

[Wolfie]

I doubt this government would be around to see any long term gains. They are already walking the tightrope and the public are not fools - the government could try blaming the unions and rail workers but it won't wash with many. Any disruption to events like the Commonwealth Games because of the government being unreasonable and stingy would likely lead to the PM having to offer his resignation or else be forced out by a no confidence vote, Sunak and Shapps would probably have to resign too.

I have to say that of all issues that may lead to a no confidence vote in the Tory party rail strikes rate pretty much bottom. Any successor Tory PM would be unlikely to take a different stance.

 

[Watershed]

I doubt many of the leading figures of this government would be in office to see any long term gains. They are already walking the tightrope and the public are not fools - the government could try blaming the unions and rail workers as much as they like, but it won't wash with many. Any disruption to events like the Commonwealth Games because of the government being unreasonable and stingy would likely lead to the PM having to offer his resignation or else be forced out by a no confidence vote, Sunak and Shapps would probably have to resign too.

I admire your optimism

If Partygate and the million other instances of de Pfeffel's wrongdoing and incompetence aren't enough to make him resign, I really doubt a rail strike will.

 

[Moonshot]

We have seen no need for the contingent guards so far as fully trained conductor managers have operated the limited service running.

Next Saturday will have all conductors & senior conductors available with driver managers driving a much reduced service I expect to only be routes similar to this week.

Contingent guards to me are anyone who doesn't actually have the job title of guard. Also, Driver Managers are not allowed to drive trains on strike days. That's an agreement ASLEF actually have in my neck of the woods

 

[Philip]

I have to say that of all issues that may lead to a no confidence vote in the Tory party rail strikes rate pretty much bottom. Any successor Tory PM would be unlikely to take a different stance.

Not if it causes major disruption to major events. This week has been a relatively 'quiet' week and so the disruption hasn't caused as much trouble.

 

[Moonshot]

I haven't got time to read all of the thread so apologies if this has been covered but how do the logistics of pickets work?

On Thursday the picket at the back of Guildford station was around for longer than it was today.

Do people who are picketing move off to another location for other parts of the day or do they just quit and go and do other things?

How does one decide when a picket has served its usefulness and isn't required anymore?

Is it raining?

 

[JonathanH]

Not if it causes major disruption to major events. This week has been a relatively 'quiet' week and so the disruption hasn't caused as much trouble.

You seem to be missing what the prize is here for the government.

Closing ticket offices, getting DOO in almost all areas, reducing pension accrual, real terms pay cuts all reduce the costs of the railway and have a long term gain for the government.

The reality is that no one union had the power to properly disrupt the Commonwealth Games because the number of people dependant on the railway to reach them is relatively small in the grand scheme of things and unless there is an all out strike some services still run.

 

[dk1]

Contingent guards to me are anyone who doesn't actually have the job title of guard. Also, Driver Managers are not allowed to drive trains on strike days. That's an agreement ASLEF actually have in my neck of the woods

I’ve never heard that one mate. They did here during the 2009 strikes & only last Thursday when drivers joined in.

Contingency guards where previously know as PUGS (Person Utilised as Guard).

 

[PupCuff]

Contingent guards to me are anyone who doesn't actually have the job title of guard. Also, Driver Managers are not allowed to drive trains on strike days. That's an agreement ASLEF actually have in my neck of the woods

There's a few edge cases. For instance (rhetorical), if someone gets a conductor manager job with no previous conductor experience (not required at several TOCs) and they get trained up, are they a contingent conductor or a "fully trained conductor manager"? Likewise if someone was a contingent conductor as a station manager and then goes to be a conductor manager, are they still a contingent conductor or do they evolve pokemon-esque into a "fully trained conductor manager". If someone was a conductor, then went into planning and maintained their competence, by rights they're still a contingent conductor even though they were a conductor before.

It is of course a moot point because contingent conductors wouldn't be working trains if they hadn't been trained and assessed competent anyway. The difference is usually no revenue and limited routes/traction.

 

[irish_rail]

For those wanting strikes sooner than late July, can RMT members actually AFFORD to strike again so soon after 3 days lost pay? August makes more sense id say.

 

[SJN]

For those wanting strikes sooner than late July, can RMT members actually AFFORD to strike again so soon after 3 days lost pay? August makes more sense id say.

Not sure how the signallers get paid but TOC’s pay four weekly so some will have been paid yesterday and again on 22/7 and some will be paid early July then early August.

 

[JonathanH]

For those wanting strikes sooner than late July, can RMT members actually AFFORD to strike again so soon after 3 days lost pay? August makes more sense id say.

Presumably they won't all have been rostered to work all of those three days and rest day working / Sunday work is still available. So long as the next strikes are in the next pay period, it would seem that they just have to plan around lower income for a while.

It is going to be a short dispute with an unwelcome outcome if the momentum can't be maintained and the workers can't afford to strike.

 

[dk1]

Not sure how the signallers get paid but TOC’s pay four weekly so some will have been paid yesterday and again on 22/7 and some will be paid early July then early August.

Yes, this a double month for railway pay? Particularly good for those with monthly mortgages etc.

 

[gazzaa2]

The government are very happy to see the strikes continue, and to throw more issues into the dispute. It seems certain there will not be a compromise this side of the Commonwealth Games.

The compromise will come when the rail workers can't afford to strike any more.

It's hard to say but they won't want Lynch making fools of them all week again on media rounds. They wouldn't have been banking on that and a fair amount of public support it's given the RMT. He's no fool either.

 

[Snow1964]

For those wanting strikes sooner than late July, can RMT members actually AFFORD to strike again so soon after 3 days lost pay? August makes more sense id say.

That is the big gamble the RMT executive has to wrestle with.

Judging by how the Government have reacted so far, and the lack of disruption to Central London civil service (many of which work at home on lots of days nowadays) so won’t be moaning vocally in front of ministers, the strikes aren’t really achieving very much except losing people pay.

It will take 2 weeks to announce more strike dates (if they happen) and 1-2 weeks later Government partially shuts down for summer recess.

For some, 3 days of strikes is probably more pay than they would have liked to lose, but could they stomach another 3 days loss of pay, or maybe it would take 33 days, or even 333 days (approx the time Arthur Scargill got the NUM to strike in 1984-5). Going for long haul with no pay might not appeal to those struggling with cost of living.

It seems going on strike has about as much ammo and effectiveness as taking on a tank with a peashooter, lots of potential self harm, and not much chance of winning.

 

[Horizon22]

Not a good attitude. It sounds like you're saying the strikers are motivated only by their own situations and don't give a damn about anyone else because that's up to them. That will alienate the public, which is not a good move.

Not at all. But - to use an example - just because nurses are chronically underpaid (which I believe they are), I don't see how that it is within the RMT's remit considering they represent employers within the transport sector. Whilst I'm sure there's "union solidarity", the RMT are there to represent their members - it is hardly their fault if Unite, Unison, NUT or any other union decides not to push for stronger industrial action.

 

[CFRAIL]

Could the times of industrial action change next time to have a bigger impact but less earnings lost for members? For example a midday to midday on day followed by midnight to midnight the next day?

 

[Efini92]

In regards to recouping costs, I have heard that if a company wants you badly enough they'll pay for you, but I'm not sure about how reliable that source was, and besides which what really are the chances of an operator actually doing this in practice rather than just opting for another candidate that has already passed the probationary period? CrossCountry certainly won't be short on candidates, and despite not having the brand recognition and prestige as Virgin did, Avanti could probably get still get a good enough talent pool to not have to worry about it either. I'm sure someone will confirm though whether or not my previous statement is true though.

I’m not sure that there’s many TOC’s that have recouping costs in their contracts. I think most of the FOC’s have shifted to that model though.

not sure there’s many places that will rent you an A320 to fly yourself if you don’t have the type rating…

For what it’s worth, I suspect that if such proposal were to happen, drivers will do their training where they do now. They’ll just pay for it.

The problem with shifting to the airline model is it will stop all the people who can’t afford the training costs applying for jobs.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's hard to say but they won't want Lynch making fools of them all week again on media rounds. They wouldn't have been banking on that and a fair amount of public support it's given the RMT. He's no fool either.

I have been very impressed with Mick Lynch's media performances. As you say, he's probably increased public support as a result.

So, he's obviously a skilled media operator - a massive advantage for any TU leader, but is he skilled in the art of the deal and knowing when to compromise as Bob Crow was? The LU Night Tube strikes, where the RMT is completely boxed in with nowhere to go as TfL seem to have no interest in talking about the matter, suggest there's lessons to be learned in this respect.

 

[Horizon22]

Well put!
I’ll just add my mother’s situation, and I would say there are far more in her situation than there are ‘wealthy’ pensioners.
She is now in her 80’s, from a generation when private pensions were virtually unheard of and worked part time jobs most of her life after us kids were starting school. My dad (who died just at first lockdown) was self employed all his life, worked his nuts off and luckily, in later life, put a small amount into a private pension.
With both state pensions and my dads meagre pension, they had enough to scrape by.
Now take (unfortunately) my dads pensions out of the equation and my mum is left with a basic state pension.
Try living on that and then try and call pensioners wealthy!

@ar10642 you really need to stop feeling hard done by and do something about your future while you can because that ‘big chip’ you’ve got won’t last forever.

You are very conveniently missing off some major benefits of that generation though - decent state pensions, lots of professions were "sectors for life" and house prices when were a fraction of the wage ratio they are now. I appreciate not everything I've mentioned is specific to the case of your parents, but if you take the average 30 year old today and the average 30 year old fifty years ago, as a relative figure of wealth there will be some vast differences.

You simply couldn't even "scrape by" on just a state pension now.

 

[Sorcerer]

I’m not sure that there’s many TOC’s that have recouping costs in their contracts. I think most of the FOC’s have shifted to that model though.

I imagine this is likely because of the different nature regarding freight operations on the railway. I don't have a source to verify this so my following statement is just conjecture, but I wouldn't be surprised if most freight drivers later went on to work for passenger TOCs. I know of one driver who used to work freight who later went on to work with Virgin. I don't know if that's because of better quality of work, better pay, or simple because of better conditions, but I imagine the turnover from freight to passenger is considerably higher than from passenger to freight. Again though, I must emphasise that what I'm saying is just conjecture.

 

[Moonshot]

I have been very impressed with Mick Lynch's media performances. As you say, he's probably increased public support as a result.

So, he's obviously a skilled media operator - a massive advantage for any TU leader, but is he skilled in the art of the deal and knowing when to compromise as Bob Crow was? The LU Night Tube strikes, where the RMT is completely boxed in with nowhere to go as TfL seem to have no interest in talking about the matter, suggest there's lessons to be learned in this respect.

Yes, that will be a big ask. Getting a good deal will inevitably mean some compromise.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not at all. But - to use an example - just because nurses are chronically underpaid (which I believe they are), I don't see how that it is within the RMT's remit considering they represent employers within the transport sector. Whilst I'm sure there's "union solidarity", the RMT are there to represent their members - it is hardly their fault if Unite, Unison, NUT or any other union decides not to push for stronger industrial action.

Have a look at the news section on Unite's website and you'll see they've got disputes all over the place and have won many inflation-busting deals for low paid workers.

 

[Horizon22]

Have a look at the news section on Unite's website and you'll see they've got disputes all over the place and have won many inflation-busting deals for low paid workers.

I'm sure they have - was just some unions that first popped into my head as an example.

 

[ar10642]

You are very conveniently missing off some major benefits of that generation though - decent state pensions, lots of professions were "sectors for life" and house prices when were a fraction of the wage ratio they are now. I appreciate not everything I've mentioned is specific to the case of your parents, but if you take the average 30 year old today and the average 30 year old fifty years ago, as a relative figure of wealth there will be some vast differences.

You simply couldn't even "scrape by" on just a state pension now.

Also at the end of the day the average pensioner is likely living in an asset which is worth 10 times or more what they paid for it. If things get really tough they can sell it and downsize or rent. The current "generation rent" won't have this option.