Rail strikes discussion

[gazzaa2]

I have been very impressed with Mick Lynch's media performances. As you say, he's probably increased public support as a result.

So, he's obviously a skilled media operator - a massive advantage for any TU leader, but is he skilled in the art of the deal and knowing when to compromise as Bob Crow was? The LU Night Tube strikes, where the RMT is completely boxed in with nowhere to go as TfL seem to have no interest in talking about the matter, suggest there's lessons to be learned in this respect.

No idea, but the first step is getting the government round the table in good faith. They've shown no real interest in settling the dispute as of yet, just mud slinging and picking fights. Maybe this week refocuses that strategy from them.

 

[exbrel]

Working age people already are doing that on top of a NI hike to pay for your social care.

and i thank them, same as the pensioners i payed out for no doubt thanked me, but be assured i will hang on as long as i can so you can pay more for longer...

They've been doing that for years. Why should I care about them?

no man is a island... and there will come a day...

 

[gazzaa2]

You are very conveniently missing off some major benefits of that generation though - decent state pensions, lots of professions were "sectors for life" and house prices when were a fraction of the wage ratio they are now. I appreciate not everything I've mentioned is specific to the case of your parents, but if you take the average 30 year old today and the average 30 year old fifty years ago, as a relative figure of wealth there will be some vast differences.

You simply couldn't even "scrape by" on just a state pension now.

They're also politically very powerful. The grey vote has swung the last few elections and the Brexit referendum. It's also the Tories key base.

 

[JonathanH]

Have a look at the news section on Unite's website and you'll see they've got disputes all over the place and have won many inflation-busting deals for low paid workers.

I think this is now too high profile for the government to agree an inflation-busting deal unless the unions roll over on all the reforms and accept the possibility of compulsory redundancies - eg productivity pays for the pay changes - because of the implications for other settlements.

 

[GB]

Yes, this a double month for railway pay? Particularly good for those with monthly mortgages etc.

No such thing as a collective double month for railway pay really. It depends on your own company same as actual pay dates...of course some companies may line up. Our double month was a couple months ago and pay date last week.

 

[ar10642]

and i thank them, same as the pensioners i payed out for no doubt thanked me, but be assured i will hang on as long as i can so you can pay more for longer...

no man is a island... and there will come a day...

Enjoy your 10% rise the rest of us are paying for whilst getting no increase ourselves.

 

[Goldfish62]

No idea, but the first step is getting the government round the table in good faith. They've shown no real interest in settling the dispute as of yet, just mud slinging and picking fights. Maybe this week refocuses that strategy from them.

Unfortunately, apart from Mick Lynch showing them up for what they are I think they'll be quite satisfied. The strikes haven't ground the country to a halt and people appear to have largely adjusted. Even the concurrent tube strike on Tuesday didn't bring London to a halt. After the first couple of days the strikes have barely features in news headlines.

 

[JonathanH]

Absolutely. In 1982, it was necessary to make makeshift car parks in Hyde Park to cope with rail strikes. These days, while a strike causes issues at an individual level, it barely registers in terms of newsworthy impact on travellers.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think this is now too high profile for the government to agree an inflation-busting deal unless the unions roll over on all the reforms and accept the possibility of compulsory redundancies - eg productivity pays for the pay changes - because of the implications for other settlements.

Agreed, but I was responding to the suggestion that other unions aren't doing anything, which couldn't be further from the truth.

In any case the RMT are asking for a no strings 7% pay rise, which seems more than reasonable as a starter given that CPI was just above this in April, when I assume the pay anniversary date was for most companies involved in the dispute.

 

[DelayRepay]

Could the times of industrial action change next time to have a bigger impact but less earnings lost for members? For example a midday to midday on day followed by midnight to midnight the next day?

I wonder about a change of tactic too. They could create a similar level of disruption by having the Network Rail and TOC strikes at different times - e.g. NR out mid-day Tuesday to mid-day Wednesday, but RMT out from 6am Wednesday to 6am Thursday. So you'd end up with three days of disruption at the cost of one day's pay.

(I just made those times up - obviously the RMT will know from shift patterns the most effective times to strike - but my point is they could cause more disruption for the same lost wages if they didn't all strike at the same time)

 

[Smidster]

The RMT really need to assess the impact of this week on any potential agreement and be honest with themselves on whether or not additional action is going to deliver a better outcome for them.

In all honesty there is a real risk that more strikes do nothing but make more staff lose more pay for longer at a time when people can't afford it.

That may not be what people want to hear but Government very rarely capitulates to Union demands and of course this week has shown that the country is not dependent on rail to get around or work.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think this is now too high profile for the government to agree an inflation-busting deal unless the unions roll over on all the reforms and accept the possibility of compulsory redundancies - eg productivity pays for the pay changes - because of the implications for other settlements.

If the government wanted to offer an olive branch, no compulsory redundancies is quite an easy one. Workforce reductions can be achieved through natural wastage, and/or voluntary redundancy offers with an enhanced package.

But I do not think the government wish to offer an olive branch.

 

[Thermal]

Unfortunately, apart from Mick Lynch showing them up for what they are I think they'll be quite satisfied. The strikes haven't ground the country to a halt and people appear to have largely adjusted. Even the concurrent tube strike on Tuesday didn't bring London to a halt. After the first couple of days the strikes have barely features in news headlines.

This is the narrative that the government will aim to sell, and they will probably be successful too, but the reality is that the they only care about the economic result.

People staying home means lost ticket revenue is not being made up by higher tax receipt on increased fuel sales etc and businesses will be generating lower VAT returns from quieter urban areas. Every £1 subsidy in rail returns around £2.50 in GDP, and when the economy is flirting with recession, I think they would rather have carnage in the streets but the money still rolling in than this new alternative where many have the freedom to just stop consuming on strike days.

 

[Wolfie]

I have been very impressed with Mick Lynch's media performances. As you say, he's probably increased public support as a result.

So, he's obviously a skilled media operator - a massive advantage for any TU leader, but is he skilled in the art of the deal and knowing when to compromise as Bob Crow was? The LU Night Tube strikes, where the RMT is completely boxed in with nowhere to go as TfL seem to have no interest in talking about the matter, suggest there's lessons to be learned in this respect.

A very balanced post. Despite his public image, which he didn't seem to give a toss about (a major failing in the current world), Bob Crowe was widely respected as a canny operator.

They're also politically very powerful. The grey vote has swung the last few elections and the Brexit referendum. It's also the Tories key base.

Bothering to actually vote is a start! Too many of the younger generation choosing not to vote was one of the causes of the BREXIT referendum result.

 

[brick60000]

Bothering to actually vote is a start! Too many of the younger generation choosing not to vote was one of the causes of the BREXIT referendum result.

At the risk of going off topic - what evidence are you making that assertion with? Partly because if there is data of any kind I’d be quite interested to look, but I am doubtful there’s anything that’s hugely conclusive.

Polling in the UK is by secret ballot, so there’s no way of knowing who actually did and didn’t vote.

I’m not saying I disagree with your sentiment, though….quite the opposite!!

 

[dk1]

No such thing as a collective double month for railway pay really. It depends on your own company same as actual pay dates...of course some companies may line up. Our double month was a couple months ago and pay date last week.

Well you know what I mean. Doesn't affect me it's just what you hear in the messroom.

 

[Thumper1127]

I wonder about a change of tactic too. They could create a similar level of disruption by having the Network Rail and TOC strikes at different times - e.g. NR out mid-day Tuesday to mid-day Wednesday, but RMT out from 6am Wednesday to 6am Thursday. So you'd end up with three days of disruption at the cost of one day's pay.

(I just made those times up - obviously the RMT will know from shift patterns the most effective times to strike - but my point is they could cause more disruption for the same lost wages if they didn't all strike at the same time)

Be very careful of this approach. Maximising disruption to minimise wage loss may seem logical but the public, who may accept the current action, would quickly get alienated and the government would make much of it. One of the reasons the miners strike in the 80s had varied public support was because many people remembered the previous strikes which ended up in scheduled power cuts; hence Thatcher vowed it would never happen again. I’ve been able to rearrange a regular rail journey to another day this week and have taken it on the chin. Preventing me from making the journey at all next time will leave a bitter taste. With a greater emphasis now on optional journeys, rather than distress purchases, beware of alienating remaining traffic. Assuming it will all return when this strike is over is a pretty dangerous thing to do. By all means strike but don’t be seen to be causing maximum disruption in this manner, I think it would backfire on you. I hope you get a reasonable settlement by the way.

 

[Wolfie]

At the risk of going off topic - what evidence are you making that assertion with? Partly because if there is data of any kind I’d be quite interested to look, but I am doubtful there’s anything that’s hugely conclusive.

Polling in the UK is by secret ballot, so there’s no way of knowing who actually did and didn’t vote.

I’m not saying I disagree with your sentiment, though….quite the opposite!!

This, from a Tory Lord who l believe has fallen out with Johnson, is a good read.

A reminder of how Britain voted in the EU referendum - and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls

Following the week’s parliamentary drama, here is a reminder of how – and crucially, why – the UK voted in the EU referendum in June 2016. * 24 June 2016 The UK has voted to leave the European Union. On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted to help explain the result – who...

lordashcroftpolls.com

"

• The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as did 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
• The AB social group (broadly speaking, professionals and managers) were the only social group among whom a majority voted to remain (57%). C1s divided fairly evenly; nearly two thirds of C2DEs (64%) voted to leave the EU."

 

[Snow1964]

The BBC are reporting that Network Rail have 2000 unfilled vacancies so have no plans to make anyone compulsory redundant

The same article is reporting the RMT want a no compulsory redundancy guarantee before they will negotiate anything else.

Maybe I am being naïve, but RMT holding out for the guarantee (which they are unlikely to need) seems to be time wasting whilst members lose money.

Rail strikes: Union boss urges government to 'tone down rhetoric'

Passengers across Britain are facing a third day of travel disruption as rail strikes continue.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Vespa]

Today must be my lucky day I arrived at Euston out of speculation to see what's running and a train is due to leave in 10 minute an Avanti service to Liverpool they said my LNWR will be accepted, so quickly I hopped on it, it only had 3 stops Stafford, Crewe and Liverpool Lime st also as an added bonus it went through Warrington Bank Quay and diverted through Earlstown Junction to Lime Street making an interesting journey arrived 2 hours before my original LNWR train would have done and my Megabus coach ticket would have got me to Liverpool at 21:00 hours I'm quite happy to lose £11 just to get back earlier alas there is no local train home so its bus from now on, still I can't grumble

There was an RMT picket outside the station.

 

[Shrop]

Not at all. But - to use an example - just because nurses are chronically underpaid (which I believe they are), I don't see how that it is within the RMT's remit considering they represent employers within the transport sector. Whilst I'm sure there's "union solidarity", the RMT are there to represent their members - it is hardly their fault if Unite, Unison, NUT or any other union decides not to push for stronger industrial action.

I agree that it's not within the remit of RMT to cover other sectors, however there is a harsh reality here. We will always need nurses, police, teachers, refuse collectors etc, but the railways are more expendable. Everyone needs nurses etc, even though many might be fortunate enough not to need them yet, all of us have needed teachers in the past and many still do for their children and grandchildren, and so on, but the simple reality is that around 40% of all people in the UK haven't used trains for many years, and something more like 90% could do without them if they had to. Trains are a "nice to have" option, but a far, far greater proportion of the population rely on cars and can, if necessary, manage without trains. What this strike is doing is training people how to live without the railways.

I've been a lifelong rail user with a lifelong interest in rail operations, but most people I talk to can take or leave them. The RMT might be stronger than Unite etc, but it would be a huge own goal if they ended up with much less to fight for if the industry shrank due to disillusionment about their reliability. And quite possibly the dissuading effect of fare increases which will be needed to cover the wage and other demands. I don't approve of unreasonable management tactics any more than anyone else, but I do think that strikers need to be careful if their primary motive is purely financial.

 

[JonathanH]

The BBC are reporting that Network Rail have 2000 unfilled vacancies so have no plans to make anyone compulsory redundant

The same article is reporting the RMT want a no compulsory redundancy guarantee before they will negotiate anything else.

Maybe I am being naïve, but RMT holding out for the guarantee (which they are unlikely to need) seems to be time wasting whilst members lose money.

At this stage, the RMT have much more impact being in dispute with both Network Rail and the DfT TOCs than if they are just in dispute with the TOCs.

 

[exbrel]

Enjoy your 10% rise the rest of us are paying for whilst getting no increase ourselves.

we lost 5% this year, " and as for "whilst getting no increase ourselves." don't be a defeatist you are on strike arn't you... and getting all that strike pay, you wont know what to do with it all.

 

[Scott1]

It's hard to say but they won't want Lynch making fools of them all week again on media rounds. They wouldn't have been banking on that and a fair amount of public support it's given the RMT. He's no fool either.

I'm pleased it's not just me who found this. I wondered how much of it was my own bias, given I am a union member, however I have really enjoyed watching him dealing with MPs talking nonsense.

 

[Goldfish62]

The BBC are reporting that Network Rail have 2000 unfilled vacancies so have no plans to make anyone compulsory redundant

The same article is reporting the RMT want a no compulsory redundancy guarantee before they will negotiate anything else.

Maybe I am being naïve, but RMT holding out for the guarantee (which they are unlikely to need) seems to be time wasting whilst members lose money.

Rail strikes: Union boss urges government to 'tone down rhetoric'

Passengers across Britain are facing a third day of travel disruption as rail strikes continue.

www.bbc.co.uk

From my experience elsewhere I think what the RMT's issue will be is that although there may be more vacancies than there are roles surplus to requirements it's highly unlikely they'll be matching. The most effective way to adjust for that is to make surplus roles redundant and redeploy the displaced staff. Redeployment is likely to result in people being offered redeployment to roles they don't want and/or on lower pay that is only protected for a few years (but also not fully pensionable). Refusal to take the offered roles would result in compulsory severance.

 

[pt_mad]

It doesn't really feel like there is much of a future. Everything in life is slowly getting worse or going backwards, living standards, life expectancy, climate issues and now the threat of nuclear war has come back.

I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do anyway, there is hardly any money left after paying out for the essentials. I've already moved jobs three times in three years to get more money and every time costs go up to eat away any gains I've made.

All jokes and ‘digs’ aside, I really feel that you should be seeking a bit of professional help before it’s too late.
Things can get better, mine definitely did!

ar10642's view may appear extreme to some, as I'm guessing it did to you by your reply. But this really is how so many are suffering in wider society and amongst the bottom end of the wage spectrum during this cost of living crisis, the housing crisis, and with the tax hikes amongst the effect of the lockdowns and general cuts. There are a lot of young people feeling like that. I have relatives who are in teaching and they are telling me a lot of youngsters in education are suffering, the others are ok until they hit their early 20s, as they tend to live for today so to speak, but as soon as they realise it's minimum wage job after minimum wage job with poor insecure conditions and a quarter of a million to buy a family home, and anywhere south of Milton Keynes double, many are losing hope. If they want to rent, it's £1000 a month plus for six month insecure tenancies. Why else are we being told there's a mental health problem in society?

You seem to be missing what the prize is here for the government.

Closing ticket offices, getting DOO in almost all areas, reducing pension accrual, real terms pay cuts all reduce the costs of the railway and have a long term gain for the government.

Very fair point to make.

This has become political. The RMT are saying the operators and even network rail's hands are tied and they are ready to do the deal but are being held back. It's being reported the government are saying it's for the employers to negotiate and not them. So if it's not the govt holding the employers back from making an agreement, who is it? I predict the govt can only go so far with this idea of refusing to take part in the negotiations before the public demand they get it sorted.

At the same time good will with employees is likely in decline quite probably with no fault of the employers themselves, if it's being demanded they implement these measures. But whoever is demanding it seems to be distancing themselves from taking part in forming any final agreement. Very bizarre indeed.

What I will say is that many workers are frightened. They have done and are doing their job that they were taken on to do, on the terms their employer set. Suddenly the goalposts move and their futures are under threat, and the whole landscape of the railway is in question, and whether in the future it is a well staffed people railway or more towards automation and minimum people presence type environment.

Regarding the ticket offices, ok there's the arguement that they will be converted into lobby type areas with a staff member to help with the machines. But what size would a station need to be in order to mean that will happen and it won't simply become unstaffed?

If the whole exercise is about cost cutting to go towards the £600m saving from staffing, then logic could lead to the assumption that a great deal of smaller ticket offices will close with no assisted indoor ticket machine areas. Will rural or semi urban ticket offices which currently have a window facing outside be converted to have a reception area with machines and staff on hand?
If not then what about assisted passengers who currently have assisted travel, booked or unbooked at these stations? Who will put the ramps down to the trains, particularly if DOO is part of any deal and there wouldn't have to be a second member of staff on the train in order for it to run?

DOO again is a whole thing in itself. Mick lynch has said when the negotiators returned to the room one day, they began to discuss DOO as part of the settlement. If DOO is what the government want and was rolled out on as wider basis as equipment allows as quickly as possible this could fundamentally change the landscape of this railway forever. The fundamental change of currently having to have the second member of staff Vs not having to have them could eventually lead to more of a people-less railway in the future, and that is not necessarily something which is explained to the public. The public like staff to be available for help, emergencies, assistance, and to feel safe. Most staff understand that and feel a similar way.

I feel that most of the public do want to see staff on the railway. Some don't and would be more cost focused. But most do. Passenger surveys have shown this many times. And this will be the focus of a lot of workers too. It is also important that workers aren't put on new conditions for any or safety related work if these could lead to workers simply being run into the ground.

Mick lynch said that the railway wants to increase the working week to 40 hours and then the deal someone posted on this forum stated Sundays to remain extra but non optional. Sundays are often rostered 8 hours. Would it be fair to assume that would then mean a mandatory 48 hour week of shifts? I.e. Is this not the limit before the working time regulations kick in with anymore than that having to be optional? Let's not forget the railway week runs Sunday to Saturday, so one week of shifts often leads straight into another before someone actually gets a day off. Usually 7 days of shifts.

I'm just not sure how realistic that is doing safety related work week after week Vs what the railway is climatised to at the present time.
Most of the western world seems to be working towards a lower working week, not moving back to hours associated with the times of the pre 1980s.

 

[Watershed]

I wonder about a change of tactic too. They could create a similar level of disruption by having the Network Rail and TOC strikes at different times - e.g. NR out mid-day Tuesday to mid-day Wednesday, but RMT out from 6am Wednesday to 6am Thursday. So you'd end up with three days of disruption at the cost of one day's pay.

(I just made those times up - obviously the RMT will know from shift patterns the most effective times to strike - but my point is they could cause more disruption for the same lost wages if they didn't all strike at the same time)

It's possible, but remember that an RMT strike solely at the TOCs would have much less impact than one solely at NR - particularly around London, where nearly all lines are DOO and thus unaffected by a lack of conductors.

 

[SJN]

we lost 5% this year, " and as for "whilst getting no increase ourselves." don't be a defeatist you are on strike arn't you... and getting all that strike pay, you wont know what to do with it all.

From previous posts, I don’t think that member works for the railway so wouldn’t be on strike. Regardless, there is no strike pay.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The RDG have started running anti strike ads on Twitter.

Surely that money could go into a pay rise…

 

[Robertj21a]

I doubt many of the leading figures of this government would be in office to see any long term gains. They are already walking the tightrope and the public are not fools - the government could try blaming the unions and rail workers as much as they like, but it won't wash with many. Yes, the union and rail workers would also lose credibility but don't think for a minute that the government would get away with it. Any disruption to events like the Commonwealth Games because of the government being unreasonable and stingy would likely lead to the PM having to offer his resignation or else be forced out by a no confidence vote; Sunak and Shapps would probably have to resign too.

That's very naive. About 90% of the country never use trains, so any impact on the government will always be minimal. Boris could well gain votes from many of the public fed up with unions.