Theft of Signalling Cable

[pitdiver]

According to our local news there has been a theft of signalling cable on the ECML. Would tis have been copper wire or has it been by fibre optics? If this the case surely it wouldn't be worth stealing?

 

[John Webb]

It would almost certainly be copper wire. While fibre-optics may be used for communication purposes, you still need copper wire to supply power to signals, point motors and track circuits or axle counters, at least to or from a local relay room.

 

[ainsworth74]

It would almost certainly be copper wire. While fibre-optics may be used for communication purposes, you still need copper wire to supply power to signals, point motors and track circuits or axle counters, at least to or from a local relay room.

Though to my knowledge it's not been unknown for them to cut fibre optic cables not realising that they are fibre optic.

 

[pdeaves]

Though to my knowledge it's not been unknown for them to cut fibre optic cables not realising that they are fibre optic.

That's the thing. And it's quite a common error (over and above the fundamental error of trying to steal stuff in the first place).

 

[Western Lord]

Hopefully the theft of railway signalling cables will disappear when the easier pickings of car charging cables reaches profitable proportions.

 

[pdeaves]

Hopefully the theft of railway signalling cables will disappear when the easier pickings of car charging cables reaches profitable proportions.

Whilst I fully get your intention ('no disruption for the railway'), I would rather deal with the problem of theft than simply shift it somewhere else.

 

[ainsworth74]

I do think it's a bit worrying that this seems to be on the rise again. We seemed to just about have cracked it after a terrible time in the early 2010s. But it seems like it is on the rise again. Have the previous methods lost their effectiveness or are things now desperate enough/the price of copper high enough again that it's worth the extra risk for the thieves in a way it wasn't after the various changes that curtailed it last time?

 

[zwk500]

Whilst I fully get your intention ('no disruption for the railway'), I would rather deal with the problem of theft than simply shift it somewhere else.

The theft won't stop until it's not worth the money. Can't see that happening for conductive metals any time soon.

I do think it's a bit worrying that this seems to be on the rise again. We seemed to just about have cracked it after a terrible time in the early 2010s. But it seems like it is on the rise again. Have the previous methods lost their effectiveness or are things now desperate enough/the price of copper high enough again that it's worth the extra risk for the thieves in a way it wasn't after the various changes that curtailed it last time?

https://www.ft.com/content/bbd0adc1-442d-4662-bf13-9a641807b378. [Link to Financial times article about price of copper at all-time high]

Seems 2009 was a bit of a bump, but prices were falling into 2016-ish, and have now shot up again.


[Image of copper prices from 2001 to 2021]

 

[ainsworth74]

Seems 2009 was a bit of a bump, but prices were falling into 2016-ish, and have now shot up again.

Ahh possibly a bit of both then. The spike in 2011 corresponds with my memory of it being a bit issue so then couple more enforcement powers that came in around then with declining prices that followed on would explain why it fell. It rocketing back up at least as high as the previous 2011 peak probably explains why it's happening again more!

 

[thomalex]

The pros of a third rail

 

[GB]

The pros of a third rail

Not quite, third rail still uses copper signalling cables.

 

[dk1]

Yes with the metal price increasing again disruption like this has to be expected unfortunately.

 

[InOban]

The authorities don't have the resources to police the scrap businesses.

 

[skyhigh]

The pros of a third rail

How does third rail stop signalling cable being stolen?

 

[ainsworth74]

The pros of a third rail

I imagine someone enterprising soul has made off with OHLE cable before but there's high risk (normal cable theft) and high (voltage) risk!

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately the solution to this is probably going to have to be either a dramatic increase in fencing around the railway property [which we might want anyway], or the use of railway designs that minimise the amount of places that need powered equipment.

 

[D6130]

I imagine someone enterprising soul has made off with OHLE cable before but there's high risk (normal cable theft) and high (voltage) risk!

During the very long and protracted electrification of the OSE main line between Athens and Thessaloniki, large lengths of copper contact wire were frequently 'liberated' at night time prior to energisation.

 

[skyhigh]

Ultimately the solution to this is probably going to have to be either a dramatic increase in fencing around the railway property [which we might want anyway], or the use of railway designs that minimise the amount of places that need powered equipment.

Fences really aren't much of a deterrent to people who are wanting to pinch cable. They just cut through them. Even if the amount of copper cable is reduced, there will still be significant disruption caused by people cutting fibre optic cable looking for copper.

It's a hard problem to solve, but the most effective things so far have been the increased use of covert cameras, random searches of scrapyards and banning cash sales of scrap metal.

 

[cuccir]

Someone stole the drain covers from the streets near us. I think we're going to go back to this being a problem again for a while, even with the tighter rules on scrap metal dealing.

 

[HSTEd]

Fences really aren't much of a deterrent to people who are wanting to pinch cable. They just cut through them. Even if the amount of copper cable is reduced, there will still be significant disruption caused by people cutting fibre optic cable looking for copper.

It's a hard problem to solve, but the most effective things so far have been the increased use of covert cameras, random searches of scrapyards and banning cash sales of scrap metal.

Well in theory we could use GSM-R to control a lot of trackside equipment, and that would just leave us with power cables to deal with.

 

[skyhigh]

Well in theory we could use GSM-R to control a lot of trackside equipment

Is that really feasible?

 

[HSTEd]

Is that really feasible?

I honestly don't know, but they are stuffing a hell of a lot of data through GSM-R these days, given signalling systems are controlled by TDM cables from the 80s, I don't think its totally unreasonable.

 

[zwk500]

Is that really feasible?

Tbf a lot of trackside equipment is connected remotely already. ETCS L2 would also remove a fair amount of requirements for track based equipment, such as signals.

 

[Peter0124]

Maybe more security cameras could be used on the copper cables to stop people stealing them.

 

[GB]

Would a Wireless network for the signalling be possible/safe? Don't know much about whether wireless is a good idea though, would it bring loads of disadvantages eg it could get hacked?

Maybe more security cameras could be used on the copper cables to stop people stealing them.

Cameras won't stop people and won't help once the damage is already done.

 

[JamesT]

Could you make whatever the cables are run through harder to access? E.g. if it's running through a trench, concrete over the top of the trench?
Or is anything that presents serious obstacles to the thieves also likely to make normal maintenance and repairs impossible?

 

[rower40]

During the very long and protracted electrification of the OSE main line between Athens and Thessaloniki, large lengths of copper contact wire were frequently 'liberated' at night time prior to energisation.

Conversely, during the closure of the Woodhead route, the OHLE was de-energised during the day, where the track was being lifted (with cranes operating nearby!), then re-energised at night.
1500V requires more chunky catenary to carry the larger currents. So there was probably more weight of copper to be got rid of.

 

[Sonik]

Could you make whatever the cables are run through harder to access? E.g. if it's running through a trench, concrete over the top of the trench?
Or is anything that presents serious obstacles to the thieves also likely to make normal maintenance and repairs impossible?

Both are true

BT do use lockable access covers in some areas, don't know how practical this would be trackside.

 

[snowball]

I think part of the problem with the GWR electrification was that the signalling cables had been buried to reduce theft, and then mast foundations were piled through them.

 

[adamello]

How does third rail stop signalling cable being stolen?

I think that the presence of a third rail nearby acts as a deterrent