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Manchester Piccadilly G4S and their interpretation of the NRCoC

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RPI

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It's not tripe at all. I made this post in January and have said the same on a similar subject in the past:


I would like to hope that you don't mean you PF someone for failing to seek you out if they had no way of buying the ticket before boarding (which is not what we're discussing here), but merely that you would not PF someone if they attempt to seek you out in a case where you could legally get away with PF-ing someone anyway (ie. if they could have bought the ticket before boarding), although I have no difference either way on the last point.
why would I PF someone who had no chance to buy a ticket? I work in PF areas and non-PF areas in "my area" and even on the few pay train routes people will seek you out to buy a ticket without being accused of queue jumping, maybe it's just a northern thing being accused of queue jumping!
 
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Jonny

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... maybe it's just a northern thing being accused of queue jumping!

It most likely is - and I'm from up north. People get a bit fussy about even jockeying for position.
 

radamfi

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In Scotrail land you also have the times when the ticket office is open but the staff are doing other things. May only be shut for 30 minutes but I doubt the gaurds would know.

Tried to buy a ticket at Rochdale station about a year ago and the ticket office had a sign saying "ticket clerk on station duty", or words to that effect. So I took a photo of it, in case the guard on the train didn't believe me. Just that second, the clerk reappeared and gave me the third degree for taking photos (even though as we all know it is allowed). So even if you try to cover your back, it can still backfire.
 

yorkie

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why would I PF someone who had no chance to buy a ticket? I work in PF areas and non-PF areas in "my area" and even on the few pay train routes people will seek you out to buy a ticket without being accused of queue jumping, maybe it's just a northern thing being accused of queue jumping!
The Bristol area isn't North ;)

I think on any line with loads of unmanned stations approaching a major barriered terminus at a busy time, when people are going to face queuing before they can leave the station, people may be keen to get a ticket issued on the train to avoid that queue. If everyone sought your advice to seek the guard, there'd be loads of standees all blocking the aisles trying to get to the guard on some of these trains!

Seeking the guard is something that helps when you are in reality 'in the wrong' (e.g. boarding a PF train at a PF station because you didn't leave time to buy a ticket from the ticket office) and you declare an intent to pay and the guard will then show leniency. I am pleased you show common sense in those situations, that's good to hear :) But this situation is completely different.
 

Mojo

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why would I PF someone who had no chance to buy a ticket?

Because that's exactly what this topic is about; someone having no opportunity to buy a ticket because there are no facilities at this station. So if what you are saying is not relevant then why even bother to comment on the thread?
I work in PF areas and non-PF areas in "my area" and even on the few pay train routes people will seek you out to buy a ticket without being accused of queue jumping, maybe it's just a northern thing being accused of queue jumping!
I don't know how long Greater Bristol has been in the North :-?

I can't speak for other lines with unstaffed stations as I don't think I've travelled on many at peak hours, so cannot comment on the situation on other lines, but I wouldn't be too happy if I was a regular commuter on another line and saw it there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think on any line with loads of unmanned stations approaching a major barriered terminus at a busy time, when people are going to face queuing before they can leave the station, people may be keen to get a ticket issued on the train to avoid that queue.
Indeed; this is exactly the type of line we're talking about here.
 

Failed Unit

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Certainly in Scotrail land, people would be very unimpressed if you were looking fir the gaurd. It can take a long time to get served if you arrive at Waverley or Glasgow without a ticket. People even try to ask gaurds of other trains to avoid the queues.
 

Solent&Wessex

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In fairness, sometimes I receive messages on the Blackberry saying XYZ ticket office is closed, please offer the full range of tickets. Trouble is, there's other times when I don't receive such messages!

Ditto, I get messages often, even for other TOCs stations. Again, however, it is not consistent and seems to depend who is on duty in control.
 

reb0118

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There are no right or wrong answers here. In an ideal world every station would have a staffed ticket office, every train a guard, and every carriage a ticket examiner, at regular intervals revenue inspectors would carry out further checks and therefore every passenger would have the opportunity to purchase a ticket either at a station, on board, or at a barrier.

However we live in, and have to operate a system in, the real world.

As a guard myself I would say that it the vast majority of cases I would welcome a proactive request for a ticket especially if you gave me a reason such as:-

"Look mate can I get a ticket from you? I've a tight connection at the Waverley and this train is already a few minutes down"

As to a queueing system on board trains. Not so. I've not seen one in 15 years. It is pot luck as to where you sit and where the revenue staff are performing their duties at any particular time. There are too many factors, especially for a guard, to dictate where he will be on any one train at any one time. On busy trains you may be able to be served at your seat almost immediately after boarding or you may have to wait 40mins whilst passengers who have joined en route get served before you. The only way to ensure that passengers get served in time order would be for the train to loaded in a strict order ie passengers from the first station to the front of the train, passengers from the second station sit in behind them and so on and so forth. I don't think this is a practical solution do you? At the very least it would be impractical to enforce and would and substantially increase dwell times at the station. How about this other brain wave? Why don't passengers just queue up at rear door and buy tickets from the guard prior to boarding? We'll leave that one there shall we.

Anyway to make my point. If you board my train at an unstaffed (or staffed for that matter) station don't be afraid to come and ask me for a ticket if I have not appeared for a few minutes. Be proactive - don't moan at a ticket barrier that there are not enough staff on the trains (even though it is true)!

However have some common sense - don't all come at once. Think about your fellow passengers if you have plenty time when you arrive at your station then sit tight -if you must catch the 0900 to Kings Cross and you still need to buy a ticket then common sense tells you what to do?

Finally, forbye the above, there is no legal or indeed moral requirement for passengers to find the guard although it is the passengers responsibility to ensure that they have a valid ticket for their journey. Where practical I will always ensure that I patrol my train to give my passengers an opportunity to purchase any tickets they require.
 

Mojo

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There are no right or wrong answers here.
Yes there is a right answer. The right answer is that you don't need to approach the guard, but you may if you wish. Just don't complain if on a line where it is commonplace to wait your turn (which is probably limited to a few lines with barriers or where it has grown up as a local custom) when others shout at you. If there's no such custom then fine, approach the guard, but there is NO obligation to, if boarding at an unstaffed station.
As to a queueing system on board trains. Not so.
Yes. It is true. I was a daily passenger and on a number of occasions at least several times per week people would approach the guard and people within earshot would shout at them to wait their turn (me included), the guard would also often tell them to sit down and wait for others to be served.

Just like how in some branches of McDonalds there is a single queue for all the tills and in some branches the staff request that you form separate queues for all the different tills. It's all about how the train staff prefer to work and the specific policy in that branch which is upheld by regular customers.
 

Failed Unit

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Reb0118. You work on Scotrail by you location? What are you supposed to do on a double turbo service? How to you know which set the gaurd is in? What if they change sets at the station you join if you get it right? Finding the gaurd is not always that easy or in the case of double turbos possible.
 

Greenback

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There is no compulsion to find the guard. All that reb has suggested is that if the passenger is worried about a tight conenction, and doesn't want to risk a confrontation later in their journey, don;t be afraid to look for the guard rather than wait for them to coem down the train.

The risk is that other passengers might object if that is not the lcoal custom, but I think the advice was offered with the best of intentions.
 

table38

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Finding the gaurd is not always that easy or in the case of double turbos possible.

On 185s I figured out that the external orange door light flashes on the carriage from which the doors were opened. Dunno if this is true of other units.
 

Failed Unit

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There is no compulsion to find the guard. All that reb has suggested is that if the passenger is worried about a tight conenction, and doesn't want to risk a confrontation later in their journey, don;t be afraid to look for the guard rather than wait for them to coem down the train.

The risk is that other passengers might object if that is not the lcoal custom, but I think the advice was offered with the best of intentions.

Fair enough, but my point still remains how do you know where they are and how do you get to them on non-corridor linked stock? I still don't think other passengers will be impressed. I have missed connections at manual gates trying to get through while staff let people coming off trains through. So glad Waverley barriers now accept APs.
 

Greenback

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You are correct about that of course. I wouldn't ever go looking for the guard myself, but I can see that ther emay be occasions when someone might want to.
 

radamfi

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Fair enough, but my point still remains how do you know where they are and how do you get to them on non-corridor linked stock? I still don't think other passengers will be impressed. I have missed connections at manual gates trying to get through while staff let people coming off trains through. So glad Waverley barriers now accept APs.

Stations should only have barriers outside station cordons. If they exist en route between platforms, then minimum connection times should be extended by 10 minutes, or connections held while tickets are purchased. Where else in Europe do barriers exist between platforms?

Alternatively, missing a connection due to long barrier queue should mean compensation under Delay Repay etc.
 

reb0118

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Reb0118. You work on Scotrail by you location? What are you supposed to do on a double turbo service? How to you know which set the gaurd is in? What if they change sets at the station you join if you get it right? Finding the gaurd is not always that easy or in the case of double turbos possible.

Non corridor stock is a pain for both passengers & staff. Please note I'm not telling anybody that they HAVE to find a guard that is not the passengers responsibility HOWEVER there is nothing wrong in doing so, especially if you may be caught up at a barrier at a intermediate station with a tight connection.

A few years ago when GNER were still in existance we were told not to advise passengers on our trains with tight connections onto a GNER service, and who had been unable to purchase on board the ScotRail train for whatever reason valid or otherwise, to purchase on board the GNER. GNER were not accepting the reason of being abable to purchase on board another operators trains as a valid reason as in their view the passenger was boarding (in this case Edinburgh) at a GNER station with an open booking office - Standard Opens all round! Was that fair? Was that against the NCoC?

Anyway there is a problem here. What are the solutions?

Just off the top off my head:-

1) Would it be acceptable for passengers with tight connections arriving ticketless at barriers to be served first, ideally in the order of their departing connections.

or

2) Permit to travel vouchers could be issued to such passengers for fixed cash ammounts at the gates eg £5, £10, £15, &c. These vouchers would be fully exchangeable on board the next train for the through ticket. (Guards could also be issued these vouchers in case of failure of their commercial equipment)

or

3) Passengers with tight connections should be allowed to pass any barrier without let or hinderence upon stating that they have a connection and were unable to purchase a ticket for valid reasons.
 

yorkie

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A few years ago when GNER were still in existance we were told not to advise passengers on our trains with tight connections onto a GNER service, and who had been unable to purchase on board the ScotRail train for whatever reason valid or otherwise, to purchase on board the GNER. GNER were not accepting the reason of being abable to purchase on board another operators trains as a valid reason as in their view the passenger was boarding (in this case Edinburgh) at a GNER station with an open booking office - Standard Opens all round! Was that fair? Was that against the NCoC?
It is against the conditions of carriage and I know someone who had that happen to him, he got compensation from GNER who admitted the guard acted incorrectly.
 

Failed Unit

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Reb - sorry my post appeared abrupt. The problem with Waverley is the Scotrail train normally arrives in the barriered part so you are stuck in that queue near platform 14 which can be very slow. I did often wait until you could see the gaurd and do the reverse fare dodge, but I certainly felt like queue jumping. Most times other passengers would be understanding. I was living at South Gyle which was (maybe still is) TVM less so ordering on line wasn't helping.

Make you wonder what GNER would do at a station like Newark if someone arrived from the Lincoln line. Pass through the barrier queue and get a ticket in 7 minutes?

The other general problem is that ticket machines die, the Advantix often wouldn't issue for whatever reason.
 

radamfi

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2) Permit to travel vouchers could be issued to such passengers for fixed cash ammounts at the gates eg £5, £10, £15, &c. These vouchers would be fully exchangeable on board the next train for the through ticket. (Guards could also be issued these vouchers in case of failure of their commercial equipment)

Or just TVMs at all stations. If almost every little halt in the South East has a TVM then it can't be a big deal at places on suburban lines in the rest of the country. Most tram systems in the UK have ticket machines at all stops so National Rail lines in the North West, Yorkshire, central Scotland etc. aren't much different. It is hard to believe that a station as significant as Rochdale has only just installed a machine!
 

Greenback

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TVM's are not the answer, just as barriers do not, on their own, provide an effective solution to the problem of fare evasion.

TVM's can be part of the solution, but as we all know, there are occasions when TVM's are not working properly, will not take certain payment methods, or do not sell the compelte range of tickets. Then you also have the fact that many people don't understand them ,a nd don't like using them.
 

radamfi

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I only propose TVMs for cutting queues at ticket barriers with no change in regulations. The guard will still be on the train selling and checking tickets.
 

Hydro

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Certainly in my experience, a TVM queue versus a ticket window queue moves slower (I discount the odd occasion someone is buying a lot of tickets, or a travel card, which involves forms, photographs, and his Access won't wipe - you get the picture*) as people try and figure out how the TVM works. "Oh, go back Terry, you've selected Derby Road, not Derby; which one do we need to come back tomorrow? I've not got me readers on. Standard Open Return, or Off-Peak Return? Eeeeh, hang on, look at the Super-Off Peak? Are we returning on a day with a Y in it? Best look it up. Check the moon phases too, if it's waxing then I think we can get another fiver off. Right where does the money go? Bugger it's card only. Well I'm not putting it on the Visa. Go and ask the man, Terry. Bloody British Rail."


*kudos to whomever gets the reference there.
 

premier01

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It got so bad for me at one time I started using Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly, as they consistently refused to sell me the right ticket. Its not much fun arguing, with a queue of impatient people building up behind you.

I wrote and complained but Northern evidently didn't think it worthy of a response :(

I also don't like travelling through Manchester Piccadilly if I have to pass through the G4S points-while 90% I have a valid ticket the queues are annoying and they are rude and not trained in ticket selling or rules-it makes me laugh how I can get off a VT from London having no ticket check and walk straight out to the main concourse yet travel from Manchester Airport where tickets are checked before boarding and again on the train only to have to get them checked again by incompetent staff.

While I happilly hold out the tickets to avoid any confrontation if I had to rush to make a connection I would and have walk straight past to avoid missing the train.

I was once chased by these people in such a situation only to have them say you're in trouble to which I replied your out of breath now and I have a valid ticket then the train doors closed and I sat down pleased that I had not let the pathetic process miss my train to Milton Keynes where I had a meeting.

 

Anvil1984

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I am sorry but refusing to show your ticket is just being confrontational or stubborn for your own reason, G4S are employed by Northern and TPE, if Virgin or XC don't want to do ticket checks on the station that is up to them.

Whilst I am not a fan of G4S, I do agree with ticket checks being done on major stations whether by machine or by person, either way your going to have issues, problem is people can't complain about the barriers being rude
 

island

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Would a mod mind renaming the thread to put "Manchester" in front of "Piccadilly"? Every time I read it I think of Piccadilly Circus tube station :|
 

radamfi

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I am sorry but refusing to show your ticket is just being confrontational or stubborn for your own reason, G4S are employed by Northern and TPE, if Virgin or XC don't want to do ticket checks on the station that is up to them.

Whilst I am not a fan of G4S, I do agree with ticket checks being done on major stations whether by machine or by person, either way your going to have issues, problem is people can't complain about the barriers being rude

There is a BIG difference between checking at a station cordon and within a station, like done within Man Picc. The latter shouldn't be allowed.
 

blacknight

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Have no problem showing ticket but I do expect person inspecting ticket to have been trained & to be able read it correctly, not to much to expect otherwise they should not be in the job.
In an ideal world "Railway jobs for railwaymen & women":) its just TOC's way of saying look what we are doing to protect the revenue;) whilst saving on NI sick pay holiday pay costs & the rest:D.
 

Dolive22

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I think you have to produce a ticket when required by an authorised person, which (god help us all) the G4S staff are.
 
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