1p on Fuel Duty to Keep £2 Bus Fare Cap?

[Snex]

With me it is the £2 singles which make me use the bus for the longer journeys I sometimes make when I am at work as I tend not to use the bus when not at work. I did Bristol to Yeovil for £4 (with a change at Wells which will only be needed until 01st September when Bristol to Yeovil becomes a through route) instead of the £22 train fare the other day.

Perhaps the multi-modal period ticket would be more useful as an optional offer: I am quite happy continuing on the £2 singles.

Dave

See I personally think that type of journey is a problem as you should imo be using the train rather than a diesel bus duplicating the route. If you and 20 others all use the bus then it means that the scheme is effectively being double funded as the loss of revenue needs to be funded on the train service as well.

The longer journeys really need to be more than £2 imo as it's too cheap for the journeys, £2 to do 40 miles+ (from September) is completely unreasonable, if you ask me, as much as I shouldn't be complaining.

 

[cactustwirly]

See I personally think that type of journey is a problem as you should imo be using the train rather than a diesel bus duplicating the route. If you and 20 others all use the bus then it means that the scheme is effectively being double funded as the loss of revenue needs to be funded on the train service aswell.

The longer journeys really need to be more than £2 imo as it's too cheap for the journeys, £2 to do 40 miles+ (from September) is completely unreasonable, if you ask me, as much as I shouldn't be complaining.

Isn't that the point of £2 fares? Short hops in town were £2 before the cap anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

The benefit of a flat fare is that you can speed operation by way of London style tap in (with no need to tap out) though oddly no operator seems to actually be doing that.

I can see why it might not be sensible to keep it for long distance regional buses, but a flat fare in cities where passenger volumes are large is potentially a big PVR (peak vehicle requirement) saver and makes buses more attractive by speeding them up. It's noticeable that a London bus typically spends only a few seconds at even a busy stop whereas in other cities it's often minutes.

So on that basis, definitely yes!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The benefit of a flat fare is that you can speed operation by way of London style tap in (with no need to tap out) though oddly no operator seems to actually be doing that.

Arriva Merseyside do.

 

[Cambus731]

Yea, anything which makes motoring more expensive while keeping public transport more affordable is a good thing

 

[RT4038]

Isn't that the point of £2 fares? Short hops in town were £2 before the cap anyway

In some areas. In the shire areas many were more.

The benefit of a flat fare is that you can speed operation by way of London style tap in (with no need to tap out) though oddly no operator seems to actually be doing that.

I suspect probably because it has always been billed as a short term government intervention, so bus companies do not want passengers to get in this habit, as it might change back.

 

[cactustwirly]

Arriva Merseyside do.

All the operators I've used do

 

[Bletchleyite]

All the operators I've used do

I've seen tap in tap out, but passengers not widely adopting it and tap out still being pushed which slows things slightly (presumably because of how reimbursement works?) but most people still buying a ticket conventionally. Obviously for cash that's the only option but these days I see few cash payers.

 

[GusB]

The opening post of this thread raised the possibility of increasing fuel duty by 1p to fund the £2 fare cap. Please ensure that any replies are on-topic. Thanks

 

[Teapot42]

I recall a long time back there was a claim along the lines of 1p extra on income tax could pay for all public transport in the UK to be free at the point of use. Not sure if the sums hold true still today, but it's an interesting thought.

Collecting fares, admin on grants etc all add to the cost of operating the bus network. If a simple system could be arrived at then stripping out a layer of cost would help make the service more sustainable. Getting road traffic down to more sensible levels benefits all, including those who can't or won't give up their car. I'd imagine in a typical multi-car household if you can get rid of one car then the savings from that would more than offset any increase in fuel duty for the other(s).

That said - and I'm pleasantly surprised this discussion is permitted - I'd hope a revised fare cap system is being worked on. It's well known that many car journeys are only a mile or two - I'd like to see a £1 fare for really short hops to encourage people to leave the car at home for these sort of trips. Of course in many areas a hike in provision would be needed to make this attractive to most - the one bus an hour we get despite being in a large town won't stop many using the car.

I'd also echo that multi trip or multi operator tickets would help drive usage as well. If you need to use three buses to get to your destination then it's likely cheaper to buy an operator or area specific ticket anyway, but if those three buses are all different operators and you cross a county boundary then that might not even be available. Something like a £3 single journey ticket valid for 90 minutes would serve most commutes I'd imagine.

As for the argument that longer trips are taking advantage of the £2 fare - I wonder how many that actually affects? And it is any worse than say buying a £8 Derbyshire Wayfarer and using it to use 10 buses across the entire county? I'd argue that majority of people doing these long trips would use some way to minimise the cost (such as a day ticket) or simply not make the journey in the first place.

 

[ChrisC]

The government receives a significant proportion of its income from fuel and indeed road tax. This goes into one large pot and is used to fund the NHS, Education and most other services. Some of this money will already go towards transport. Although the price of fuel has risen rapidly these last few years the government has kept the percentage of the price which goes in fuel tax lower than probably it would normally be. Perhaps if there are any future rises in fuel duty it would be a good thing to spend it on public transport and keeping the price of bus travel at a reasonable rate could be part of that.

The £2 fare, in its current form, almost certainly will not continue for very much longer, but I hope that the government won’t just end it at the end of the year without putting something else in its place. Perhaps it needs to be left in place a little bit longer until such time as a more long term revised plan is ready. Passengers in urban areas should be encouraged to use buses rather than their cars and fares should be kept low. Whilst I don’t think that the £2 fare is realistic for very long journeys such as Leeds to Scarborough, lower fares should be continued for journeys of no more than 10-15 miles especially in rural areas. The journey from where live into town is just under 10 miles. The return fare of £4 has been great and has encouraged people to do the journey by bus but I’m not sure that a possible return fare from January of £9.50 will.

I try to leave my car at home as often as possible and support the hourly bus which runs through the village. I can live with it only being hourly and can work around this, as I‘ve never known anything better. What I do find difficult is that there are no evening or Sunday buses these days. I like to go to the theatre and concerts and have to use my car because there are no buses after 7pm for the return journey.

Even now that I have recently got my ENCTS pass I would still be willing to pay a little extra for fuel for when I do use my car if it could be used to improve public transport and enable me to leave my car at home more often. I‘ve recently found the £2 fare very useful for enabling me to travel on buses at a reasonable price before my bus pass becomes valid at 0930, as the first bus after that time is not until 1015.

 

[Andyh82]

The benefit of a flat fare is that you can speed operation by way of London style tap in (with no need to tap out) though oddly no operator seems to actually be doing that.

I think it’s because the £2 was supposed to be a short term offer, that kept being extended, and it could have been discontinued at relatively short notice

Hence all systems are still geared up for normal operation - hence we have tap on tap off systems whereas in reality you don’t need to tap off, and day tickets that are much higher than 2 singles

Various paper leaflets referring to £2 fares with out of date end dates, or where fare information has been removed entirely

If we get a fare scheme that is seen as permanent (with annual inflationary increases on a scheduled date), all the other systems should be able to change as well

 

[GardenRail]

I wouldn't mind a penny extra duty, if I had a bus to the city, to which I pay my council tax, after 1745.

 

[66701GBRF]

And why should non-motorists subsidise roads?

You might not be a motorist but are you saying you have never benefited from the roads in some way? Beit using public transport, receiving deliveries, safer neighborhoods, less pollution, better emergency responses etc.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is there any evidence that the £2 fare has increased bus usage?

 

[yorksrob]

The £2 bus fare is a great innovation, however it needs to be a part of a wider scheme to make public transport as a whole more affordable (and I mean more affordable to passengers, not this "affordable to taxpayers" claptrap, which is just an excuse to hike up fares).

 

[Snex]

Isn't that the point of £2 fares? Short hops in town were £2 before the cap anyway

I'd say it's more for sub urban areas rather than long distance buses. Just around my area you were talking £5 for a single to Newcastle which is roughly 9 mile away.

https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/5124250 - This is the example of the state of the fares on the other route in our area, and considering the bus route driving the quickest route is 15 mile from end to end, it's absolutely crazy.

 

[Deerfold]

Everyone benefits from roads, regardless of whether you drive or not. So they should be funded by everyone. If you order online, it’ll be delivered via road. If you need to be rushed to hospital, you’ll go by road. Etc etc.

Quite - and see the rest of my post showing how much clearer they are if we encourage bus use - many places use charges on motoring to push that change to public transport.

I’d say if someone is in a car they are probably earning more money and thus contributing more to the economy than your average bus user…

I've commuted by bus (and sometimes train as well) to every job I've had on almost every day I wasn't working from home.

I'd say this is very much the attitude that needs changing, that drivers are better than passengers, that you don't get in all countries.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

You might not be a motorist but are you saying you have never benefited from the roads in some way? Beit using public transport, receiving deliveries, safer neighborhoods, less pollution, better emergency responses etc.

Please read the post I'm replying to as well as all of mine...

 

[lachlan]

You might not be a motorist but are you saying you have never benefited from the roads in some way? Beit using public transport, receiving deliveries, safer neighborhoods, less pollution, better emergency responses etc.

Of course everyone benefits from roads but that doesn't mean we need to keep building more of them. Projects like the Silvertown Tunnel, Lower Thames Crossing, bypasses etc primarily benefit motorists and although they may clear up congestion which benefits bus passengers, they also induce demand and make driving more attractive against buses (which tend to go through town centres rather than use bypasses). Why isn't fuel duty increasing to cover the costs of new roads and the resulting maintenance?

 

[gaillark]

Of course everyone benefits from roads but that doesn't mean we need to keep building more of them. Projects like the Silvertown Tunnel, Lower Thames Crossing, bypasses etc primarily benefit motorists and although they may clear up congestion which benefits bus passengers, they also induce demand and make driving more attractive against buses (which tend to go through town centres rather than use bypasses). Why isn't fuel duty increasing to cover the costs of new roads and the resulting maintenance?

Why does it need to increase? Many people on this thread seem to want triple taxation on motorists. Motorists contribute more in taxes to the Exchequer. The Dft budget for all capital spending on all transport for 2024 is 20billion wheras fuel duty raises 28billion. The vast majority of spending goes on rail.

The Silvertown tunnel cost will be paid for entirely by motorists (not bus passengers) by means of toll charges when it opens. Also motorists will be subsidising bus passengers and cyclists by means of new buses. The current cost is being funded through private finance.
Bus passengers should pay the full commercial running costs of providing an urban bus service and not rely on subsidies. Nobody subsidises the running costs of my car. If anybody wishes to use a bus that's fine by me but I don't see why I should pay more to provide more bus only lanes, new buses, pay for free travel for urban schoolkids and bus operators are able to reclaim the vast majority of fuel duty as grant.

Look what happened to Sullivan Buses pulling out of all TfL contracts last Friday. It couldn't make it viable. Mayor Khan put up Council Tax by 9% in London which a big elememt was for transport and a similar amount in previous years. How much more money do you want to extract?

 

[gc4946]

2p on fuel duty would be more realistic to keep bus fares at £2 allowing for increases in bus operating costs, reviewed every 2-3 years. The cost of petrol varies considerably all the time depending on which service station one visits

 

[Simon75]

Why should people who don't use any service subsidise those who do? It's a fallacy; there are many reasons.

Why shouldn't public transport be subsided?

Car drivers don't pay for the full actual cost to society of their lifestyle choices; those of us who don't drive aren't sufficiently compensated by those who do, for the many negative effects, such as both air and noise pollution, and much more.

Public transport should absolutely be encouraged, not discouraged.

Your argument holds no water and I strongly disagree.

There are a few examples of local bus taxes

All London boroughs pay towards TFL (Transport For London)

Levies

As part of our budget and council tax setting, we pay levies to agencies. These are set by the agencies and we do not have a choice in paying them. We pay levies to:The Greater London Authority (GLA)Environment AgencyLondon Pensions Fund AuthorityLee Valley Regional ParkDetails of the charges...

www.croydon.gov.uk

Cambridgeshire

Cambridgeshire mayor's 'bus tax' could treble to raise £11m

A draft budget of the Cambs and Peterborough Combined Authority would see the tax rise to £36 a year.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Lewisham2221]

Is there any evidence that the £2 fare has increased bus usage?

Anecdotally at least, yes. I'm fairly certain that actual statistics would back this up if I could be bothered to look for them. However the £2 fare scheme was never actually intended to be a benefit to bus operators by increasing patronage, it was originally billed as a scheme to help with the cost of living crisis.

 

[The exile]

What alternative would you suggest?
The £2 bus fare is flexible and cheap for people. Any period ticket would cost a lot more upfront and therefore require people to commit making it less available as and when. Even if you use the £2 bus fare 5 days a week for a return journey you're only just getting to that 49eur, and as you say any period ticket would end up being far more in the UK. I'd like to see something that includes trains which is presumably what you're alluding to but I just don't see it happening without losing any of the value and flexibility the current £2 bus fare has

Using the £2 bus fare 5 days a week equates to £80 in a 4,week period (the £2 fare is a single so £4 a day)

 

[Teapot42]

Using the £2 bus fare 5 days a week equates to £80 in a 4,week period (the £2 fare is a single so £4 a day)

That's assuming you can commute on a single bus. I wonder how many can?

My wife has the choice of two buses plus a walk or three buses. Luckily they can all be the same operator so a day ticket works out cheaper, but should that operator decide they no longer want to serve our area (which is seeming likely) then you are back to 4x £2 a day.

I make the point of saying per day here as Covid highlighted that many people can work just as effectively from home and save several hours a day commuting. As a result we both only visit the office twice a week so are contributing to the problem where peak time services are becoming less viable and are therefore being cut.

Fundamentally, being part of a society means we have to accept we can't just do what we want without considering the overall impact and need to contribute towards communal solutions. It's also very difficult to see the big picture and appreciate what benefits improved access to public transport would bring. Any way of paying for it will be controversial and get twisted by those who just enjoy causing trouble, but be it fuel duty, a car parking levy or income tax I personally see no issue with contributing towards better buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's assuming you can commute on a single bus. I wonder how many can?

Most people can, because most people are simply taking the local bus from near where they live to their nearest town or city centre.

However I'd agree this is an issue so I'm a big supporter of the "hopper fare" on TfL and the likes - why penalise someone who's already being penalised by not having a direct bus?

The Dutch system takes this into account - you pay a "starting fare" then a kilometric one. The "starting fare" is only paid once per journey regardless of the number of changes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really interesting discussion and lots of well argued views.

Thing is.... we're all public transport advocates on this forum (or at least, most of us are). The idea that 1p on fuel duty... I think that might happen but not ringfenced for public transport. As a nation, we have crumbling infrastructure (roads, schools, hospitals), an increasing requirement for social care, pressures on public sector pay etc.

In short, there's a list of more publicly acceptable or popular recipients than public transport, and the Treasury will always fight against hypothecation (ringfencing) in any case, so 1p on fuel duty to pay for a continued bus cap seems unlikely IMHO. As I say, we are public transport fans and so we will naturally think that it's a fair and reasonable thing to do to increase taxation for the benefits that it can bring. However, we have to remember that most people will say they want better public transport...until the point that it results in increased taxation or they can't park their car outside their house or has some other adverse impact on their lives.

Anecdotally, I know of a few people who will occasionally get the bus now instead of the car. Part of the reason is the lower cost bus fare. This is backed up (I know @GusB asks for evidence) in the latest Transport Focus report

https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/19121007/32751-YBJ-FIRST-YEAR-FINAL-REPORT-2024-DRAFT-8.pdf

However, we must also recognise that there is a difference between cost and value. All too often, we focus on the cost - at £2 to go into my local major conurbation, you'd wonder why more people aren't taking advantage of this? That's because we have growing traffic congestion and limited bus priority. It's important as people put value on time and a cheaper bus fare isn't the main issue.

It's a really difficult balance to strike and I'd like to see more innovative areas of tax policy. Give firms the incentive to provide travel passes and not be taxed as a benefit in kind? Or make it easier for under-25 in employment to have cheaper transport (and somehow structured so that people who don't want to work aren't able to travel around on buses all day). And in tandem with that, be braver in how we make our towns and cities more sustainable.

 

[cactustwirly]

Most people can, because most people are simply taking the local bus from near where they live to their nearest town or city centre.

However I'd agree this is an issue so I'm a big supporter of the "hopper fare" on TfL and the likes - why penalise someone who's already being penalised by not having a direct bus?

The Dutch system takes this into account - you pay a "starting fare" then a kilometric one. The "starting fare" is only paid once per journey regardless of the number of changes.

Isn't that an outdated concept?
A lot of jobs now are on our of town office parks which need several buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that an outdated concept?
A lot of jobs now are on our of town office parks which need several buses

If you take into account all journeys you may well be right, if you include car, taxi and bicycle trips as well as those on foot.

But of all current (primarily urban) bus journeys people tend to use them primarily for direct trips and another mode for ones where a change of bus would be required - usually that change (given that timetables rarely line up) makes bus such a slow option that even cycling (and sometimes even walking) wins time-wise, particularly if an e-bike is an option. In this sort of situation people wouldn't generally go by bus if they were paid £2 to do so.

Thus I'd stick to my view here - most bus journeys will be return trips on a direct bus into the nearest urban centre. There may be a difference in London where frequencies are very high though, but it would be interesting to see (though I doubt TfL publish) how many Hopper fares are actually used each day as against simple single journeys.

 

[TUC]

To be fair, such an approach would also have to include central government taking over responsibility for funding the parts of the country where the £2 fare was set up and funded locally in advance of the national scheme, such as West Yorkshire