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Help! St Albans to London day travel card

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hawaii2468

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Hello everyone, I travelled to London today from St Albans with a London zone 1-6 travel card. My outbound trip was done by First Capital Connect from St Albans City Station to London St Pancras International. Then I wandered about in London by travelling on the tube for a few times. Coming back, instead of doing the same journey I took the London Midland from London Euston station to St Albans Abbey station via Watford junction. Unfortunately when I was on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey station I was told by the ticket inspetor that my ticket wasn't valid to travel on this route and he charged me a fine. Both St Albans City station and St Ablans Abbey station are in the same town, about a mile away. In my ticket, it printed St Albans* & London Zones 1-6, any permitted routes.

In terms shortest journey, London is so big it's really difficult to work out the shortest route. How about Heathrow Airport or east London to St Albans?

Was the ticket inspector right? Should I pay the fine?

By the way, he was very rude to me and once confiscated my ticket and hid it in his pocket only returned to me after I filled in all my personal information. I wonder do ticket inspetors have such rights to do so?
 
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sonic2009

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How much was your fine? Was it a penalty Fare

and how much did you pay for your original ticket?
 

A-driver

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I may be wrong but I think it would have to say st Albans (all stations) or something like that to be valid. Otherwise it woud have to say st Albans abbey rather than just st Albans. Obviously being different companies LM wouldn't get the revenue for a FCC st Albans -London fare.

Pretty sure the ticket inspector can confiscate it as the t&cs of a ticket state it is railway property and must be surrendered on demand.
 

First class

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Right

St Albans - London Zone 1-6


ODT - OFF-PEAK TCDSTD FCC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 15.00 = £ 15.00
__________
£ 15.00

Standard Class Single

So you then have to find the permitted routes between London and St Albans.

St Albans 1-6 Day Travelcard is more expensive than the St Albans Abbey 1-6 Day Travelcard.

I do believe it is valid and the Penalty Fare was incorrectly charged. If you used it during the peak then perhaps an excess fare was due?

No St Albans Stns group exists.

Where did you get stopped?

The ticket inspector is entitled to retain your ticket as it effectively his (acting on behalf of the train company). A receipt would be given if onward travel is required in the form of a RSP4408/UPFN.
 
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Mojo

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At the risk of being a pedant, you were not charged a fine as only the courts have the power to do this.

Can you please advise us exactly what ticket you bought (what was printed on it and its price), and also the extra amount you were charged and what documentation or ticket you received to this effect?
 

bb21

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I may be wrong but I think it would have to say st Albans (all stations) or something like that to be valid. Otherwise it woud have to say st Albans abbey rather than just st Albans. Obviously being different companies LM wouldn't get the revenue for a FCC st Albans -London fare.

Pretty sure the ticket inspector can confiscate it as the t&cs of a ticket state it is railway property and must be surrendered on demand.

So you then have to find the permitted routes between London and St Albans.

St Albans 1-6 Day Travelcard is more expensive than the St Albans Abbey 1-6 Day Travelcard.

I do believe it is valid and the Penalty Fare was incorrectly charged. If you used it during the peak then perhaps an excess fare was due?

No St Albans Stns group exists.

Where did you get stopped?

The ticket inspector is entitled to retain your ticket as it effectively his (acting on behalf of the train company). A receipt would be given if onward travel is required in the form of a RSP4408/UPFN.

There was a discussion not long ago regarding travel from St Albans. At the time, I posted this, and John @ Home posted this. The matter is complicated by the fact that there is no St Albans Stations designation and tickets from City and Abbey stations are separate flows.

The matter is further complicated by the fact that it is a travelcard rather than a point-to-point ticket, and the fact that there is no consensus as to what constitutes a permitted route between a given point and Zone 6.

However it would be helpful if the OP can indicate whether he was given a Penalty Fare or else, and what the reason was stated on the paperwork.
 

hawaii2468

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Thank you all!

Yes, very strangely that I wasn't given any receipt or other forms of documents for my penalty. The ticket inspector didn't charge me at scene, instead he wrote down my personal details on my drive license such as name, address and date of birth. This happened just right after my boarding on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey.

My ticket details are as following:

STD off peak TCDS 13 pounds (as I have a Network rail card and I presented it when purchasing my ticket and the ticket inspector as well)

Between
St Albans* & London Zones 1-6 number: 03546
Route: Any permitted
Disc: MIN

He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.

What I care about isn't the charge but truth, and it's also very embrassing as it's full of passengers on the train, they might think I didn't have any ticket.
 

First class

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Thank you all!

Yes, very strangely that I wasn't given any receipt or other forms of documents for my penalty. The ticket inspector didn't charge me at scene, instead he wrote down my personal details on my drive license such as name, address and date of birth. This happened just right after my boarding on the train from Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey.

My ticket details are as following:

STD off peak TCDS 13 pounds (as I have a Network rail card and I presented it when purchasing my ticket and the ticket inspector as well)

Between
St Albans* & London Zones 1-6 number: 03546
Route: Any permitted
Disc: MIN

He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.

What I care about isn't the charge but truth, and it's also very embrassing as it's full of passengers on the train, they might think I didn't have any ticket.

So you hold


ODT - OFF-PEAK TCDSTD FCC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
Non-standard discounts apply
1 Adult @£ 9.90 = £ 9.90

__________
£ 9.90

Standard Class Single
Minimum Fare:£ 13.00

£5 is aprox the difference between Peak/Off Peak.
 

lm321412

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Your ticket doesn't appear to have been valid no as they are both different flows and are not grouped together under one paticular designation such as ST ALBANS STNS. Its a case of two different TOCs operating from each paticular station and both having different fare structures.

I am concerned/confused about what you were charged. Excess Fare? PF? UPFN?

Whatever you were charged, you should have been given a reciept.
 

b0b

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This is a really scammy system - I don't think the average punter would expect a ticket to St Albans would not be valid to St Albans Abbey (if it is invalid, which I can't decide!)

If its going to continue to be two separate flows maybe the ticket needs to be routed (either LM/FCC only), or its time to rename St Albans to St Albans Thameslink.
 

hawaii2468

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Did he not give you anything?

nothing at all.

I am very new to this country and only moved to St Albans less than 6 month. I really had no idea what was happening. I was scared, embarrassed, angry......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you hold




£5 is aprox the difference between Peak/Off Peak.

No, because I travelled both within off peak hours. What he tried to fine wasn't that I travelled in peak hours with off peak ticket but that my ticket was out of London zones 1 - 6. I guess this 5 pounds was the price from London Zone 6 boudry - St Albans Abbey.

It's right! LM is definitely not happy about my travelling on its train as it wont get any revenue from FCC.
 

bb21

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He didn't asked me for any cash at scene, he only told me that it's 5 pound 30 plus administrative fee.

I think it might have been the fare below:

Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans Abbey
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Single
£5.30

I can't find anything else that costs £5.30. Being below the minimum fare means you don't get railcard discounts.

However I still can't understand what he was trying to do. Maybe an Unpaid Fare Notice? But then I am baffled by the admin fee.
 

hawaii2468

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I think it might have been the fare below:

Boundary Zone 6 - St Albans Abbey
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Day Single
£5.30

I can't find anything else that costs £5.30. Being below the minimum fare means you don't get railcard discounts.

However I still can't understand what he was trying to do. Maybe an Unpaid Fare Notice? But then I am baffled by the admin fee.

Well, I have no idea either why he did so to me, especially when someonewas a foreigner. Local friends also told me about this Unpaid fare notice or Penalty Notice, but really he gave me nothing.
 

asylumxl

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Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).
 

b0b

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Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).


I think St Albans Thameslink would be much clearer, though City would be better than nothing at least.
 

hawaii2468

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Got to agree with bb21, it'll have been that ticket. You got off quite lightly to be fair. He just issued you an extension on the travelcard.

Really the St Albans tickets should be printed St Albans City. The code for the station is still SAC (St Albans City), despite it not being used on signage, and the code for the other station is SAA (St Albans Abbey).

Welcome to the forum BTW :).

Thank you , I wonder if I would receive something heavy such as a posecution?
 

hawaii2468

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I think St Albans Thameslink would be much clearer, though City would be better than nothing at least.

However, from some places in London, it's shorter to travel via the Abbey station + walk to City station than directly to City Station. As long as it's the shortest it's permitted route, right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Highly doubtful. If you had been on First Capital Connect though, the chances would have been much higher. They like to make examples of people.

To be honest, I did travel to London by FCC this morning but LM won't know. I do like travelling in different routes and different operators, next time I will be more careful.
 

asylumxl

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If you want to hear something amusing regarding the two St Albans stations, a CDR from LUT (Luton) to SAC is £5.50. A CDR from LUT to SAA is £10!
 

bb21

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However, from some places in London, it's shorter to travel via the Abbey station + walk to City station than directly to City Station. As long as it's the shortest it's permitted route, right?

If you read the links I put up in Post 6 earlier, you will see why this isn't quite the story, given the situation with the two St Albans stations.

It is further complicated by the fact that there is no definitive answer as to what the shortest distance from St Albans (not Abbey as they are not grouped under St Albans Stations) to Zone 6 on a permitted route is.
 

MikeWh

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This is further complicated by the fact that the routeing points for St Albans (and St Albans Abbey) are Bedford, Watford Junction and West Hampstead Thameslink. This tells me that you are expected to walk between the two if your route takes you via a routeing point served by the other.
 

hawaii2468

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It's just too complicated. Anyway, thank you all so much for your help. I am still a bit worry about this fine bill and my weekend mood was also destroyed.
 

bb21

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If you want to hear something amusing regarding the two St Albans stations, a CDR from LUT (Luton) to SAC is £5.50. A CDR from LUT to SAA is £10!

I would assume that there is an error somewhere.

Luton - St Albans
Route Any Permitted
Off-Peak Return
£5.50

Luton - St Albans Abbey
Route St Albans Abbey
Off-Peak Return
£10.00

Luton - Park Street
Route St Albans Abbey
Off-Peak Return
£10.00

Who in their right frame of mind would buy the second ticket? I agree that it was probably intended to be routed involving a walk between the two stations, however I don't think LM's pricing manager thought it through.
 

OwlMan

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Whether it is valid would depend whether using Watford Junction as the Routeing Point passses the Fares Rule.
The problem being what do we use for the fare comparison.
There are no tickets to London Terminals from St Albans, likewise there are no tickets to Lndon Thameslink from Watford Junction.
Travelcards issued from Watford Junction include zones 1-9 those frm St Albans cover zones 1-6.
Tickets to Boundary zone 6 go to different stations.
I am not sure what to use?

Peter
 

asylumxl

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I don't know, but maybe it's to discourage the use of the line for local journeys by FCC, as it's priced by them. 10 pounds is ridiculous though, a return to WFJ is only £8.50 for god sake.
 

b0b

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Whether it is valid would depend whether using Watford Junction as the Routeing Point passses the Fares Rule.
The problem being what do we use for the fare comparison.
There are no tickets to London Terminals from St Albans, likewise there are no tickets to Lndon Thameslink from Watford Junction.
Travelcards issued from Watford Junction include zones 1-9 those frm St Albans cover zones 1-6.
Tickets to Boundary zone 6 go to different stations.
I am not sure what to use?

Peter

That in itself should be more than enough to not penalize an innocent passenger, especially, going by the account of the OP, the very harsh attitude of the RPI - who sounds like he's hanging out looking for people to make the very understandable mistake to catch the St Albans train to St Albans.
 
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