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Grand Central Abandoning Customers

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800001

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I noticed on twitter today that Grand Centrals 1A61 1213 Sunderland to Kings Cross terminated at Northallerton due to a train fault.

GCs advise on Twitter was:-
We're sorry, due to a train fault the 12:13 Sunderland - London Kings Cross service is terminating at Northallerton.

Passengers who wish to abandon travel, can claim a full refund from your ticket retailer.

Passengers who wish to continue travel need to purchase new tickets.

Also there 1N96 1738 London Kings Cross to Sunderland due to the above train fault, there advise, again from their twitter account:-

We're sorry, due to a train fault the 17:38 London Kings Cross - Sunderland will be starting at Doncaster.

Passengers will need to travel earlier on other Grand Central services.

Passengers unable to travel earlier will need to purchase new tickets.
Passengers who wish to travel tomorrow instead, can use their original tickets dated 06 Oct 2024 on Grand Central services on 07 Oct 2024.

Basically today GC have abandoned customers, no ticket acceptance, no replacement transport.

Out of interest, legally where does a customer stand in a situation like this?
 
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MrJeeves

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In practice, you'll have to fork out for a new ticket and then claim the cost back from Grand Central later.

Most won't realise this, and will just end up paying the difference for their travel after refunding the original ticket.

The moment the original ticket is refunded, though, you lose the rights you hold to get transported to your destination which is why they are so keen for you to do it.
 

Ziggiesden

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Deplorable but they are not the first - many TOCs are doing it in the hope that people do not know their rights. They have a claim under NRCoT under Clause 28.2. I would advise a further complaint to RDG, Transport Minister and eventually to the Rail Ombudsman if Grand Central do not compensate and give an apology.
 

GoneSouth

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This is why I won’t use these open access operators, they basically are Ryanair on rails, bare minimum service for bare minimum cost with zero toss given when things go wrong. Unfortunately we’re promised these charlatans right across the network in the future.

The continued decline in public service!
 

JonathanH

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This is why I won’t use these open access operators, they basically are Ryanair on rails, bare minimum service for bare minimum cost with zero toss given when things go wrong. Unfortunately we’re promised these charlatans right across the network in the future.
Well they clearly suffer from not having the resources available and in the right place to put things right when they go wrong. Not a lot that can be done about that once it happens.

It isn't really the responsibility of the rest of the railway to pick up their pieces.

It is an odd situation where we seem to be encouraging the continued presence of open access operators while not recognising the advantages that having a single operator network offers in terms of resources to put things right when they go wrong.

As you say, this is the risk taken by anyone who buys a ticket restricted to an open access operator.

The problem I guess today is exacerbated by there being a reduced service south of Doncaster due to diversions via Lincoln and there being limited capacity on other services.
 
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rg177

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This is made worse by the fact that there's engineering works north of Grantham so there's basically just the 19:00 LNER left for anyone going north of York. I suspect it was going to be very cosy to begin with.

Of course, this doesn't absolve Grand Central of their responsibilities and they've completely failed to even explain themselves (and why ticket acceptance is especially tricky to attain today).
 

riceuten

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Good luck with getting a refund. I've certainly heard of the much praised Hull Trains doing this and then not refunding passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well they clearly suffer from not having the resources available and in the right place to put things right when they go wrong. Not a lot that can be done about that once it happens.
In this case, the fact they haven't made alternative arrangements is unforgivable
 

JonathanH

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In this case, the fact they haven't made alternative arrangements is unforgivable
Yes, and not trying to absolve them, but what are those other arrangements they could make?

They won't have a spare train nearby, and I suspect no STP path they could run a train in.

LNER have presumably said they won't take their customers because of the reduced timetable.

I can't imagine chartering a number of coaches at zero notice is practical.

The alternative arrangement is travel tomorrow, or earlier to meet the replacement train in Doncaster, ie 1653 rather than 1738 from Kings Cross.
 

Megafuss

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There is a tweet LNER have responded to from an LNER customer unable to board at York due to Grand Central passengers (assuming they've paid). Nobody wins
 

Kite159

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Disgraceful behaviour from Grand 'Cancel'.

Although no doubt LNER would have said no to any request to carry the stranded passengers due to the reduced timetable with the engineering works, unless those passengers paid for the LNER fare then it will be 'welcome on board'.

The only time it will stop will be if Grand Central end up in the courtroom or someone with power/famous is caught up with the issues and it blows up on social media
 

riceuten

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I suspect Grand Central didn't even bother contacting LNER or other operators, and just hoped it would all go away
 

Watershed

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Basically today GC have abandoned customers, no ticket acceptance, non replacement transport.

Out of interest, legally where does a customer stand in a situation like this?
Any other operator that's in a position to assist passengers is obliged to do so under NRCoT condition 28.2.

As per the screenshot below, LNER are still happy to sell cheap Advances in both standard and first class on their 20:51 from Kings Cross to York. There is also an earlier itinerary involving the 20:02 from St Pancras, involving changes at Derby and Leeds.

Screenshot_20241006-182043.png

It is therefore plainly evident that there are alternative services that GC's passengers could be accommodated on. Therefore the operators of those services would be obliged to accept GC passengers' tickets. Sadly we know that operators routinely breach the NRCoT with impunity, so the legal and practical positions are often different.

GC themselves are of course also under an obligation to arrange alternative transport for passengers (which is not conditional on how easy it is for them). They should have been arranging ticket acceptance on the above services, and if those negotiations failed despite their best efforts, they should have ensured they had staff in place at the relevant stations to issue new tickets and refreshments free of charge to passengers.

They should also be making it 100% clear they will reimburse passengers who choose to buy their own tickets and refreshments, and paying delay compensation on top.

As it stands, affected passengers will almost certainly have a claim against GC and they may also have a claim against other operators if they are wrongly charged extra to avail of their NRCoT 28.2 rights. I would, however, not expect a smooth experience in trying to claim back the relevant amounts from GC/other TOCs.

Well they clearly suffer from not having the resources available and in the right place to put things right when they go wrong. Not a lot that can be done about that once it happens.
They've effectively gone "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas". There are so many more things they could easily have done, some of which I've listed above. But they save money by fobbing customers off, and they know they'll get away with it, so that's the path they've chosen to take.

It isn't really the responsibility of the rest of the railway to pick up their pieces.
It absolutely is. Tickets are issued under the NRCoT, which all National Rail operators are signatories to. That includes the 28.2 requirement to assist other TOCs' stranded passengers. The TSA also contains a similar requirement although it's unclear whether it would apply in these circumstances.

Of course, it's perfectly reasonable for GC to be sent the bill for the assistance other TOCs render. But passengers shouldn't be left stranded because of petty disputes between operators.

It is an odd situation where we seem to be encouraging the continued presence of open access operators while not recognising the advantages that having a single operator network offers in terms of resources to put things right when they go wrong.
I agree that having open access operators always adds complexity. However, the evidence from Spain, France and Italy is that it encourages bureaucratic state operators to up their game and become more competitive. As such, there are arguments for and against it.

I think the most important thing is that passengers aren't left carrying the can when things go wrong. That necessitates much More hands-on regulation by the ORR, including enforcing existing licence obligations (such as the obligation to comply with the PRO).

A few test cases "pour encourager les autres" where recalcitrant operators like GC are prosecuted and threatened with licence suspension would quickly get all the TOCs in line. That's exactly what we saw when the RRB accessibility issue headed towards a judicial review.

As you say, this is the risk taken by anyone who buys a ticket restricted to an open access operator.
In practical terms, perhaps. In legal terms, absolutely not - because of NRCoT 28.2.

The problem I guess today is exacerbated by there being a reduced service south of Doncaster due to diversions via Lincoln and there being limited capacity on other services.
Not an excuse for stranding customers, of course. Even if it proved completely impossible to accommodate passengers on alternative trains today (which is clearly not the case) then GC should be making it clear they'll arrange hotels or pay for the bill afterwards.

Yes, and not trying to absolve them, but what are those other arrangements they could make?

They won't have a spare train nearby, and I suspect no STP path they could run a train in.

LNER have presumably said they won't take their customers because of the reduced timetable.

I can't imagine chartering a number of coaches at zero notice is practical.

The alternative arrangement is travel tomorrow, or earlier to meet the replacement train in Doncaster, ie 1653 rather than 1738 from Kings Cross.
That alternative arrangement is completely unacceptable and there are a range of alternatives, as I've outlined above.
 

GoneSouth

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I suspect Grand Central didn't even bother contacting LNER or other operators, and just hoped it would all go away

I wish GC would just go away. Bleeding revenue from what is effectively now a state run railway and expecting them to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong.

Not just GC though, lots of other industries expect the government to pick up the pieces, banks, car manufacturing, train manufacturing, it’s an endless list, however in this situation, GC are competing directly against the government and I don’t blame them for saying get lost when it comes to bailing them out. Lesson learned for those customers I hope,
 

harz99

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The unit concerned, 180114 recently spent a fair amount of time out of use, prior to that it failed a fair few times. The last time I travelled on it, it lost nearly an hour from Retford to Hartlepool running on greatly reduced power.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wish GC would just go away. Bleeding revenue from what is effectively now a state run railway and expecting them to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong.

Not just GC though, lots of other industries expect the government to pick up the pieces, banks, car manufacturing, train manufacturing, it’s an endless list, however in this situation, GC are competing directly against the government and I don’t blame them for saying get lost when it comes to bailing them out. Lesson learned for those customers I hope,
I am sure that passengers from Sunderland, Hartlepool, Eaglescliffe, and Thirsk who wish to travel to directly London agree with you...not!

There are no other direct London services from these stations, apart from the very early LNER departure from Sunderland via Newcastle and it's late evening return.

The problem here is the 180s, not the company operating them, plus on occasion the lack of co-operation from other TOCs.
 
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mrmartin

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This is why I won’t use these open access operators, they basically are Ryanair on rails, bare minimum service for bare minimum cost with zero toss given when things go wrong. Unfortunately we’re promised these charlatans right across the network in the future.

The continued decline in public service!

The enormous success of Ryanair et al show this is what customers actually want though...
 

DanNCL

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I see it’s been highlighted already that LNER were in a position to help out and yet have failed to do so. So as far as I can see, that’s both TOCs in the wrong not just Grand Central. LNER clearly aren’t at capacity with their own passengers if they’re still selling fixed train advances so it would not be an unreasonable burden for them to take GC passengers on said services that have advance tickets still available.
 

GoneSouth

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The enormous success of Ryanair et al show this is what customers actually want though...
I’ve never used them either :)

I take your point, clearly many do want bargain basement service at bargain basement prices. Just some expect everyone else to help them out when their choices go wrong.
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem here is the 180s, not the company operating them, plus on occasion the lack of co-operation from other TOCs.

Aside from "sold out" trains, there's nothing stopping GC's managers standing there with their company credit card buying them tickets for LNER. Therefore, yes it is GC's fault.

As a minimum they could state to send in a receipt for reimbursement of an LNER ticket.

I echo the view that any OAO that won't sort out their customers with alternative travel in the event of a cancellation - particularly a mid journey one like this - should not be allowed to be in business. They should be shut down.
 

SuspectUsual

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What’s also an indicator of GC’s attitude is that they’ve disabled replies to their tweets, and seem to delete all their cancellation tweets the following day, presumably to leave a “clean” trail that obscures the absolute sh*tshow of a service they provide
 

800001

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Is it still Cross Country who looks after GC control function?

Unsure who manages there twitter feed?
 

Travelmonkey

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As a disabled passenger I know (and have argued) my rights before, this is sly on GC, although they're not unfamiliar with throwing in the towel, remember the WCML Blackpool plan?

Arguing 28.2 can be tricky and majority of customers wont know it sadly, I almost had a avanti guard fine me & a lady I was traveling with because I decided to use my 28.2 clause when the LNWR trent Valley services were mass cancelled. I got 2 sentences into the regs before he accepted and moved on.
 

Kite159

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I wish GC would just go away. Bleeding revenue from what is effectively now a state run railway and expecting them to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong.

Not just GC though, lots of other industries expect the government to pick up the pieces, banks, car manufacturing, train manufacturing, it’s an endless list, however in this situation, GC are competing directly against the government and I don’t blame them for saying get lost when it comes to bailing them out. Lesson learned for those customers I hope,

No doubt there will be some within the management of LNER who would love for the open access operators to close up shop, solely to remove competition so they can increase fares, maybe even extending their pilot at getting rid of cheaper flexible tickets to become the airline on rails.
 

skyhigh

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Is it still Cross Country who looks after GC control function?

Unsure who manages there twitter feed?
CrossCountry also manages the twitter feed.

Unsure if they also delete disruption posts after it has ended but if so it's obviously not a GC policy to cover their disruption up.
 

harz99

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@Bletchleyite well IF by some miracle GC had an available Manager standing by to teleport to Northallerton, he or she would be wasting their time selling LNER tickets for travel to London after that unpredicted failure.

There were (are) no further London bound trains from Northallerton today, GC or LNER.

Equally, AFAIK there is no GC management at King's Cross, the train crews dealing with whatever needs sorting under instruction from the GC control. That is no different to, for example Ryanair, who have no ground customer facing staff or Managers at Newcastle Airport.
 

driverd

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Any other operator that's in a position to assist passengers is obliged to do so under NRCoT condition 28.2....

Without quoting the whole post, thank you, @Watershed , for sharing your informed knowledge with the forums. I'm all too exhausted of forum member/members who seem like apologist bots for the TOCs, coming to these forum discussions and talking as though they are authoritative, when the conditions the operators are expected to play by couldn't be more different from the line they take. It's appalling that operators are failing to meet their obligations to customers, demonstrably breaching contract (would this be criminal?) when they are all too prepared to take the travelling public to court for, sometimes, the most minor of contract breaches at their end.

Frankly, as an informed forum (that's often used as reference for the public), we really should be doing more to champion how the industry should behave, not excuse them because they see it as slightly inconvenient to meet their obligations.

I've long raised, both here and to contacts within the industry, how far customer service standards have fallen in the last decade (but specifically since covid). Some members would make out that finding alternative transport methods or solutions is difficult; it isn't.

In the early 2010s, most operators had contracts with the likes of First Rail Support, who would provide both contingency staff and road replacement vehicles in events such as these described. I've witnessed first hand how quickly and effectively these operations can be put into action and how good the system was at dealing with the unexpected. It's to rails detriment that the current response seems to be "tough, deal with it yourself", though as would appear, it's not just reputationally damaging, it's also breach of contract.

Beyond the immediate issues this attitude creates for customers, though, is the demoralisation it perpetuates throughout the staff grades. Morale is already at rock bottom - when your employer, managers and control functions do the bare minimum to support customers and deliver on obligations, it is utterly unfair to leave your frontline staff to bare the brunt of customers who, rightly, expect and are entitled to more - especially when you give them no tools to implement the product and the conditions attached to it that has been purchased in good faith.

As you say, this is the risk taken by anyone who buys a ticket restricted to an open access operator.

This is just thoroughly incorrect. Any ticket purchased is protected through NRCoC - and again, as you incorrectly stated, it is the responsibility of the industry as a whole to support customers. You dont lose the right to support at a station, if the station is operated by LNER but your ticket is with Cross Country. That's not how the industry is set up, it's not how operators licences are set up, it's not how track access is set up, it's not the conditions of tickets sold.
 

AdamWW

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@Bletchleyite well IF by some miracle GC had an available Manager standing by to teleport to Northallerton, he or she would be wasting their time selling LNER tickets for travel to London after that unpredicted failure.

There were (are) no further London bound trains from Northallerton today, GC or LNER.

In which case they should be sorting out accommodation as well as travel for the next day, shouldn't they?
 

Mainline421

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Aside from "sold out" trains, there's nothing stopping GC's managers standing there with their company credit card buying them tickets for LNER. Therefore, yes it is GC's fault.
As you know there is no such thing as a "sold out" train for domestic UK travel. Grand Central even have their own ticket issuing equipment capable of issuing as many walk up tickets as needed. They (or any passenger) could also do this via the ticket office or Great Northern machines and so GC have unequivocally failed to meet their legal obligations by not doing this.
 
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