I do have a railcard..but I forgot it. Refund?

[fulshaw]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

If the customer writes in and explains the situation then it is up to the company to decide if they want to refund any extra money paid based on good customer service principles. They don't have to and we all know that. But it does not mean they can't or they won't.

 

[323235]

What is so hard for you to understand , the guard did you a favour and went against the terms and conditions of your railcard and you are moaning because you want the money back despite the fact YOU were the one that forgot your railcard that is required at all times to validate your ticket for your journey. You are going to write to Customer Services to try and retrieve money that your not entitled to get back. You might be successful, you might not. What would you do if they were to request the money you owe them because you were undercharged? What happens next time you forget your railcard? The guard may have been pulled up for being lenient and might apply the rules rigidly. You won't get as much sympathy from Customer Relations. You will go to watchdog or the daily mail and attempt to get a refund through them. You will never learn to check your railcard is with you before your journey.

It seems like you think the rules don't apply to you that apply to everyone else.

I've realised I've forgotten my railcard in the past and excessed the ticket before travel. End of story. I missed out on saving a few quid. No big winge and moan as I accept that I forgot it and in future be more careful. Do you think a bus driver would give me a free ticket if I forgot my Megarider or System One Bus Saver 7 and tell me to remember it next time. No I would be expected to pay the fare as I didn't have it with me. Therefore if you forget your railcard you have to pay the full fare. Simple. Its what you see people having to do on a daily basis. In some cases they have to pay a penalty fare or a rather nasty twice the full single fare which can be very expensive indeed. You would be moaning then wouldn't you?. However They accept it was there mistake and move on.

If you don't like the terms and conditions maybe you should consider no longer buying one. You don't have to have one but then you'll be winging about the fares being more expensive.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry but in this case I would advise against writing in. I strongly agree with everything Yorkie has said already (not for the first time).

Clearly the best possible outcome for the customer was the one that arose - an excess to the undiscounted fare. This is against the ticketing guidelines and the guard has used all of the discretion available to him.

Customer relations offices do keep track of people who write in and their refund/goodwill history; they mostly use the same software.

Fulshaw, you don't seem to understand that if the guard gets a flea in his ear about this incident, he'll be unlikely to show the same leniency again. He actually bent the rules for the customer, entirely in the customer's interest.

In summary, I believe the customer/OP was treated very fairly indeed given the circumstances. I would hate to see guards become unwilling to exercise common sense. This would be vastly contrary to the interests of the passenger.

 

[blacknight]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

If the customer writes in and explains the situation then it is up to the company to decide if they want to refund any extra money paid based on good customer service principles. They don't have to and we all know that. But it does not mean they can't or they won't.

Your problem is you have not read T&C set out on back of your application form you signed to obtain YP railcard.
Your second problem is the misconception that you think you are a customer where as in this instance you are a passenger in the wrong as you failed to produce a valid raildcard with dicounted ticket.
It was your lucky day that you travelled with East Coast as many other TOC's would have deemed your ticket not valid & charged you full single fare for the journey being made.

 

[cuccir]

What is so hard for you to understand , the guard did you a favour and went against the terms and conditions of your railcard and you are moaning because you want the money back despite the fact YOU were the one that forgot your railcard that is required at all times to validate your ticket for your journey.

Your problem is you have not read T&C set out on back of your application form you signed to obtain YP railcard.
...
It was your lucky day that you travelled with East Coast as many other TOC's would have deemed your ticket not valid & charged you full single fare for the journey being made.

Just to note - Fulshaw is not the OP, ie, not the one who forgot his railcard. The original poster (dstrat) was only asking about the rules!

 

[Ferret]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

No, but you'll care if a told off member of staff sees you on his train and you hold a discounted ticket but no railcard and thinks 'ooh, last time I showed discretion, I got a b#####king, I'm gonna have to ching this guy the full whack'.

All this 'good customer service/bad customer service' mentioned in this thread is pure waffle. If I forget my passport (a supporting document) on July 25th, do you think BA will let my fly? Will they hell. If I forget my bus pass on Friday night, will the bus company let me travel without buying a new ticket? Will they buggedy!

The onus is on the passenger to bring all the relevant documentation with them. I mean, we're not talking about rocket science here are we?! How hard can it be?!

 

[fulshaw]

If people bother to post they should actually take some time to read the full thread rather than just jump in. It is not me that forgot my railcard - it is the original poster. Please read in full before slanging accusatory posts around about things I am alleged to have done or not done.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

If the customer writes in and explains the situation then it is up to the company to decide if they want to refund any extra money paid based on good customer service principles. They don't have to and we all know that. But it does not mean they can't or they won't.

The chances of you getting a refund for a ticket that is cheaper than you should have been sold (on the basis of YOU forgetting YOUR railcard) is smaller than the chance of you being sent a bill for the difference of what you paid and what you should have been charged.

The chances of that member of staff giving the same discretion again are reduced each time a letter about it comes in, partly because the company won't like discretion being shown (even if they allow it), but also because the one thing worse than having a complaint against them is having a complaint against them when they did someone a favour.

So in contrast, it IS of concern to you as a passenger/customer, as you would be eroding the discretion (customer service) that you claim to want to see.

 

[blacknight]

Hi guys

Just wondering, I bought a ticket from a machine believing I had my railcard on me. By the time the guard had come round on the East Coast service to check tickets and what not, found I never had my railcard.

Top Tip next time you need a ticket see the nice people in Ticket Office as they will ask to see your railcard at time of purchase.
Other posters note they are not being jobsworths just doing their days work correctly, preventing unfortunate incidents like this from happening & saving passenger money as most TOC's go by wording on railcard application form treat as no valid ticket held

 

[Ferret]

If people bother to post they should actually take some time to read the full thread rather than just jump in. It is not me that forgot my railcard - it is the original poster. Please read in full before slanging accusatory posts around about things I am alleged to have done or not done.

If that's aimed at me, can I point out that nowhere did I suggest it was you who had forgotten the railcard. I suggested what may happen if you did in the future. So, before you attempt to criticise somebody for 'not reading postings', perhaps you'd like to get your own house in order?

 

[blacknight]

Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. .

So your not a passenger sorry I mean valued customer you certainly give impression that you are in your post here.

 

[AlterEgo]

So your not a passenger sorry I mean valued customer you certainly give impression that you are in your post here.

He is a passenger, but not the OP - who is the person who forgot his railcard. Incidentally, the OP seems to have dealt with the situation quite gracefully, which might explain why the guard was happy to show discretion.

Respect is a two-way thing in every walk of life, I find.

 

[jon0844]

If you didn't have a valid ticket (i.e. no railcard) you weren't a customer - you were trespassing!!

For goodness sake... you were shown leniency and now you want more, despite it being YOUR fault? You didn't lose the railcard, it wasn't stolen, you didn't merely struggle to find it then later discover you did have it all along - you forgot it. YOUR fault.

Man up and accept some responsibility for your own actions.

If you'd been charged full whack, by all means write in and hope the person reading the letter was in a good mood - but can't you see when you're on to a good thing and should shut up?!!

 

[Clip]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

If the customer writes in and explains the situation then it is up to the company to decide if they want to refund any extra money paid based on good customer service principles. They don't have to and we all know that. But it does not mean they can't or they won't.

Let me get straight to the point that i have bolded.Your problem and your responsibilities as a customer(i know you were not the OP) of the railway is to carry with you the correct documentation with you - railcards/photocards - when you purchase a discounted ticket.

Your attitude quite frankly disgusts me over this. You may say Customer service should do this,that or the other and you dont care what happens to the staff but it is good natured staff like was outlined by the OP who keep the goodwill of a lot of people on this forum and passengers of the railway in the plus.. If they all took the right attitude as outlined in the manual then the OP wouldve got a far higher fare given to him.

Again the traveller has a responsibility to ensure they have everything with them when they travel and i can clearly see that the guard was doing him a favour and for that he should be applauded not shot down by someone whos attitude is that the customer can do no wrong and should be refunded moneies he doesnt have a right too

 

[jon0844]

Until the railway (and let's hope it never does, bar Eurostar) goes the way of the airlines, with every station having check-in and security, with reserved seating, people will always think that the normal common sense 'rules' don't apply.. just like not bothering to get a ticket if nobody comes to you to sell one (on a non-PF route obviously) and walking out at the other end.

As has been made very clear, even though it should be obvious, you couldn't get away with forgetting tickets, passports and other supporting documentation on planes, or even coaches, ferries, turning up to Wembley for the FA Cup (or the Olympics next year) without your tickets etc.

Treat your ticket and associated railcards like cash. Lose em, you're stuffed.

By all means write in and hope for a gesture of goodwill, but don't expect it or get upset over it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can people stop bashing the OP? Fulshaw is not the OP and not the person who forgot his railcard here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you didn't have a valid ticket (i.e. no railcard) you weren't a customer - you were trespassing!!

Complete balderdash.

 

[jon0844]

My comment applies to anyone in this situation. I don't discriminate!

 

[jamesr]

Sorry - if a member of staff gets told off I do not care. Let me repeat - it is not my problem as a customer. Some people are too used to seeing this from 'the railways' perspective and scurrying off to quote chapter and verse from The Manual as if it was some kind of pseudo- religious tome or the TIS is missing the central point here. By a country mile.

As a customer it is simply not my problem but an internal staff issue. Quoting rules and regs and excess fares is not really the point here - as some posters have grasped this is a customer service issue not a binary piece of left brain logic that states no Railcard = bad customer = customer must be 'punished'/'excessed' or whatever phrase you care to use.

If the customer writes in and explains the situation then it is up to the company to decide if they want to refund any extra money paid based on good customer service principles. They don't have to and we all know that. But it does not mean they can't or they won't.

I agree with almost everything you're saying. I think I actually would care on a one-to-one basis that a staff member was "told off" though. But the railway rules and regs shouldn't be so morally wrong as to put their own staff in a position where they feel the penalty they need to dish out for an honest mistake is so utterly ludicrous that they can't bring themselves to charge a passenger the full amount.

Your point about customer service is absolutely right. Obviously, the onus is on the customer to remember to bring a railcard with them. Obviously, if they don't, they should pay the non-railcard fare, and they should do it gracefully and without argument. But if they've made an honest mistake, and end up buying two tickets for the same train as a result, it's not unreasonable to refund them for the first one. Sure, the rules and regulations of the railway say this isn't necessary, but we're not talking about people who are trying to "pull a fast one" here, we're talking about railway customers who travel often enough to make it worth buying a railcard. Good customers who have made a mistake, have hopefully without argument realised it with or without prompting from a guard, and bought a second ticket.

The point made in other posts about regularly contacting customer services for a refund is irrelevant... we're not talking about "problem" customers, we're talking about regular customers who have made an honest mistake.

 

[snail]

Obviously, the onus is on the customer to remember to bring a railcard with them. Obviously, if they don't, they should pay the non-railcard fare, and they should do it gracefully and without argument. But if they've made an honest mistake, and end up buying two tickets for the same train as a result, it's not unreasonable to refund them for the first one. Sure, the rules and regulations of the railway say this isn't necessary, but we're not talking about people who are trying to "pull a fast one" here, we're talking about railway customers who travel often enough to make it worth buying a railcard. Good customers who have made a mistake, have hopefully without argument realised it with or without prompting from a guard, and bought a second ticket.

The OP didn't buy two tickets for the same train. They bought a discounted ticket then had it excessed to the (lowest) non-railcard fare. Sounds like a fair result to me. You accept the T&Cs when buying the railcard, not read them and think "ah, that doesn't apply to me, customer services will let me off if I can't be bothered using it".

The season ticket scenario is similar but has one significant difference IIRC: The issuing office have a log of tickets issued and thus are able to record 'forgotten' tickets. Railcards do not have a similar facility so it would be more difficult to track repeated abusers of the system (not that I am implying the OP is such a person )

 

[jon0844]

I said in the other thread that I had no problem with someone applying for a refund, less an admin fee, when producing the valid YPRC. That way, the train staff can sell the new full price ticket and;

a) If the person was trying it on, they're stuffed. Suitable punishment for someone buying a cheap ticket and hoping to be let off by insisting they have a railcard, honest..
b) If they were telling the truth and DO have a card, they get the money back less the fee which should be less of a shock and acceptable for a mistake of their own making.

With this procedure in place, staff don't need to worry about discretion and people begging/crying, it's one simple process and the staff can quickly deal with it and move on.

Until that happens, I stick with the thought that you treat that railcard as being as vital as carrying your passport when travelling abroad.

 

[Greenback]

I really am mystified as to how many people seem to forget to bring their railcard with them...mine lived in my wallet, if I didn't have the wallet than I wasn't going anywhere anyway!

 

[Flamingo]

I really am mystified as to how many people seem to forget to bring their railcard with them...mine lived in my wallet, if I didn't have the wallet than I wasn't going anywhere anyway!

I am mystified by the number of people who "left it in their other wallet!". How many wallets do most people have? I only use one, does anybody else use more than one? And transfers everything over from one to the other?

The OP was treated very well.

The last time I had someone say they were going to write in and complain about me when I was excessing them for a missing railcard they got very upset. The conversation went:
Me: "Don't do that, I'll get into trouble with my boss"
Them: "Good"
Me: "You don't understand, I'll get into trouble for only charging you an excess, now I'll have to charge you £94.50 for a Standard Open Single - can I have your PIN number please, or you can discuss it with a Revenue Inspector who has the power to send you for prosecution".

The last case I had of a missing railcard that went to court ended up costing the guy £460 when he went to court. I had offered to excess him £30, but he knew better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We have recently had a memo reminding us that the correct procedure for an Advance ticket is sell a new Standard Open Single, not excess it, after somebody wrote in to complain that they were usually excessed, but on this occasion they had been sold a new (supersaver) ticket.

Please remember, anything less than a SOS is the guard using their discretion. The guard checking the ticket is them doing their job, not being a jobsworth.

 

[Ferret]

This debate seems to pop up on here quite regularly! Still, nobody has yet managed to answer why it is that the railways are the big bad wolf when it was the customer who purchased a railcard and explicitly agreed to be bound by the condition that they carry their railcard on every journey made using a discounted ticket! It's yet another case of wanting the TOCs to be held to every last word of their contractual obligations, but when the shoe is on the other foot, demanding discretion or a blind eye to the rules in the name of customer service! It really is tiresome.

 

[snail]

I am mystified by the number of people who "left it in their other wallet!". How many wallets do most people have? I only use one, does anybody else use more than one? And transfers everything over from one to the other?

When I had a YP railcard I kept in its wallet. Then made sure any tickets I bought in advance of travel were also put there, so when I walked out of the house I would always have the railcard - or no ticket!

This discussion has also made me think of trips to London, if I forget to take my Oyster card with me then I have to buy a new one before I travel on the tube. I can't pay a cash fare then have it refunded when I get home.

 

[yorkie]

I do not believe these two statements are compatible with each other...

I agree with almost everything you're saying...

Obviously, if they don't, they should pay the non-railcard fare, and they should do it gracefully and without argument.

...as the person you agree with, fulshaw, does not appear to share this view.

But if they've made an honest mistake, and end up buying two tickets for the same train as a result, it's not unreasonable to refund them for the first one.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, it's not meant to be, but I think you need to re-read the first post by the original poster (OP). The OP was not charged for two tickets.

Sure, the rules and regulations of the railway say this isn't necessary, but we're not talking about people who are trying to "pull a fast one" here, we're talking about railway customers who travel often enough to make it worth buying a railcard. Good customers who have made a mistake, have hopefully without argument realised it with or without prompting from a guard, and bought a second ticket.

The point made in other posts about regularly contacting customer services for a refund is irrelevant... we're not talking about "problem" customers, we're talking about regular customers who have made an honest mistake.

The customer in question, who may - or may not - be regular (I don't know as I've not seen any evidence either way) has been treated in a way that is consistent with someone who made an honest mistake.

I say that as someone who is pro-customer, but also friends with many railway staff (including someone who managed a team in the department that a complaint is being proposed to be sent to). I firmly believe the customer has been treated as fairly as possible and a request for a refund of the excess is inappropriate, doomed to failure, and frivolous. It could in fact be seen as cheeky and it could, though I'd hope not, lead to the guard being told he should have followed the rules by the book and charged the OP a far, far, greater sum of money. It serves no-ones interest for a complaint to be made in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can people stop bashing the OP? Fulshaw is not the OP and not the person who forgot his railcard here.

I totally agree. The OP's question has been answered, both by fares experts and others who have a different view, to which they are entitled. But just because people are entitled to a view does not mean they have the right to issue poor advice to someone who asks for advice, nor bash the OP when someone gives the OP advice that conflicts with the advice by more established members.

 

[1V53]

A point which has been made yet not refuted regarding buying two tickets:

I know op was excessed, but say he had been sold a new SOS or SOR.

That day he writes a letter of complaint and posts it off to customer services. The following day (the day after the tickets were valid) they receive the letter. Enclosed a YP discounted ticket and a full fare for the same journey.

How do they know it wasn't two people travelling, one with a railcard, one without?

So even in that instance you have no opportunity for any reimbursement.

In the op's example, he sends in the original and the excess. Who is to say they were his, and not a friend who doesn't have a railcard trying it on. He gets home, tells his flatmate who has a railcard, who says he will pretend it was him, and write in.

So you see, there is no chance of any reimbursement after the event in my opinion.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks to the way people abuse things in this country, like it or not, you are going to have to assume most people ARE lying or trying it on these days. From what I can see, staff usually have good cause to think this too.

It's not nice. You could argue it's unfair, but that's the way it is - and if anyone is still able to show discretion or show goodwill, I am sure that will decrease as time goes on.

I don't have a problem with someone writing in, sending a ticket, copy of the YPRC and getting a refund less the admin fee. You also make sure that you apply the rules like a forgotten season ticket, allowing no more than two in any year. Any refund request should be logged, by the railcard number, to stop someone just offering a refund service for mates without railcards.

Until that happens, I cannot repeat it enough times; don't forget the railcard! If you do realise you have, get an excess BEFORE travel or seek out a member of staff straight away on the train. It's not the same as being unable to buy a ticket before travel where you could reasonably wait until you're approached (only seeking staff at the end of the journey).

 

[snail]

I don't have a problem with someone writing in, sending a ticket, copy of the YPRC and getting a refund less the admin fee. You also make sure that you apply the rules like a forgotten season ticket, allowing no more than two in any year. Any refund request should be logged, by the railcard number, to stop someone just offering a refund service for mates without railcards.

But who keeps the records? Is there a central registry of railcards? I ask because my YP railcard was issued through NatWest, not bought from a station. If someone writes to a TOC requesting a goodwill refund for a full fare ticket it would require some joined up thinking to log that refund against the YP card number. What happens if the next journey is with a different TOC?

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps for security reasons there should be a central register of railcards? But, given the fact that even my season ticket can't be cancelled if lost (or stolen) I guess the industry hasn't thought of that.

This is the same industry where FCC recently upgraded its credit card C&P terminals and didn't install ones supporting contactless payment, and of a design that makes it hard to see where the card slots in (such that they've got to have big stickers on them to say how to use them!).

It's crazy to think that they can't add the serial number of my ticket to a 'block' list to have it killed the next time it's put through a gate - but I've been told that they can't, which is why they only issue a fixed number of replacements if lost (obviously you can have as many replacements as you like if it's simply damaged and you hand back the ticket).

You raise a good point, but I think a central database would make sense for many reasons.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think a central database would make sense for many reasons.

What you are suggesting would be very expensive. Also, it'd need to store photographic data of an image of the holder.