I do have a railcard..but I forgot it. Refund?

[Ferret]

What you are suggesting would be very expensive. Also, it'd need to store photographic data of an image of the holder.

And somebody would have to pay for this - and that would be the railcard holders! So, who is for Y-P railcards costing 36 quid instead of 26 (I think) so that those that can't organise themselves properly and remember a simple thing like a railcard can get refunds every time they forget it?

 

[AlterEgo]

And somebody would have to pay for this - and that would be the railcard holders! So, who is for Y-P railcards costing 36 quid instead of 26 (I think) so that those that can't organise themselves properly and remember a simple thing like a railcard can get refunds every time they forget it?

Exactly my point! I manage to remember my Railcard, and my Priv, each time. It isn't hard.

BTW 16-25 Railcard is now £28 annually.

 

[jon0844]

And somebody would have to pay for this - and that would be the railcard holders! So, who is for Y-P railcards costing 36 quid instead of 26 (I think) so that those that can't organise themselves properly and remember a simple thing like a railcard can get refunds every time they forget it?

But the idea of a database to register season tickets, railcard numbers, photo IDs and so on is a good idea. It's now going to be expensive because nobody thought to do it.

As we introduce smart ticketing, you can see how this will be totally disjointed and end up costing far more than necessary.

I accept this is the way it is, has probably always been and will always be! I still think it's a good idea though, but if you thought the whole idea was simply to help people get refunds for having forgotten their railcard then of course it sounds ludicrous!!

 

[AlterEgo]

It's an abundantly simple system.

You remember your ticket. You remember your railcard. What is so hard about that? Why complicate an already arcane ticketing system further? And why even issue a Railcard if everything is on a database?

End of.

 

[island]

How do they know it wasn't two people travelling, one with a railcard, one without?

They swipe the two tickets and verify that one of them wasn't through a barrier. And they verify by NLC/window number where the tickets were sold.

 

[Ferret]

It's an abundantly simple system.

You remember your ticket. You remember your railcard. What is so hard about that? Why complicate an already arcane ticketing system further? And why even issue a Railcard if everything is on a database?

End of.

Exactly. Far too simple for some though! I often get the 'I've forgotten my railcard' line. Some must be genuine, but how many are just chancing their arm?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They swipe the two tickets and verify that one of them wasn't through a barrier....

No good if the tickets never pass through a barrier.

.... And they verify by NLC/window number where the tickets were sold.

Not impossible to work around either.

 

[AlterEgo]

No good if the tickets never pass through a barrier.



Not impossible to work around either.

Correct. Some kindly Customer Relations offices will always give a first-time request, if it's made politely and reasonably, the benefit of the doubt.

This is partly why CR offices monitor complaints from individuals.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

My wife and I took our daughter to London for some hospital treatment. We have a family railcard.

It was only on arriving at the station platform (having bought the tickets online and collected them from the machine at the station) that we realised that my wife couldn't find the railcard which she had previously assured me that she had on her person.

(We still haven't found it!).

Following no ticket checks on the outbound journey, and in hospital in London, I urgently wished to rectify the situation. But the Railcard website helpfully tells you that if you have lost your railcard and bought it online, your only option for a replacement is to pay a replacement fee (fine - it's just £5) and wait for the replacement card to arrive at your home address. The latter part is scarcely helpful or reasonable.

If we'd bought it at a station, we could simply pay the £5 at a station and get a replacement.

Given that the Railcard website has an online record of each purchase, there is no logical reason why stations cannot issue replacements IMHO.

Fortuitously Southeastern were equally unconcerned with ticket checking on our return journey as well, so no harm done and no loss.

Regarding earlier comments on "I can't understand how anyone doesn't keep their railcard on them", family railcard holders get ONE card between TWO holders which makes it far harder to keep track of where the card is. Most other organisations issue joint "members" with one card each - and I don't see why railcards are any different. Both I and my wife are both legitimately able to travel with a child, using the ticket. The only possible reason for restricting it to one card is to stop us each travelling, separately at the same time, with a different child - and surely that is scarcely a major revenue issue for ATOC!

 

[jon0844]

If you didn't have the card and didn't fancy buying a replacement, you always had the option to excess them before travel.

Given you knew before travelling you didn't have the railcard, I think you'd have been in a very weak position - certainly if you met my friendly RPI on FCC! You'd probably still be making a statement now...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Following no ticket checks on the outbound journey, and in hospital in London, I urgently wished to rectify the situation. But the Railcard website helpfully tells you that if you have lost your railcard and bought it online, your only option for a replacement is to pay a replacement fee (fine - it's just £5) and wait for the replacement card to arrive at your home address. The latter part is scarcely helpful or reasonable....

It may not be helpful in that situation, but it is hardly unreasonable.

....If we'd bought it at a station, we could simply pay the £5 at a station and get a replacement....

You'd need the reciept, which I doubt you had on you.

....Given that the Railcard website has an online record of each purchase, there is no logical reason why stations cannot issue replacements IMHO....

Stations have no access to any railcard databases (not even the ones they issue), but when you receive a station issued railcard, you are given a receipt (to help ensure you don't get too many replacements), when you buy online you have a letter (apparently, I've never seen one) which could easily be photocopied.

....Regarding earlier comments on "I can't understand how anyone doesn't keep their railcard on them", family railcard holders get ONE card between TWO holders which makes it far harder to keep track of where the card is. Most other organisations issue joint "members" with one card each - and I don't see why railcards are any different. Both I and my wife are both legitimately able to travel with a child, using the ticket. The only possible reason for restricting it to one card is to stop us each travelling, separately at the same time, with a different child - and surely that is scarcely a major revenue issue for ATOC!

The idea is that, unlike most other implimentations of dual card holders, only one [group] can use the railcard at one time, I'm sure if they wanted to allow two [groups] to use it at the same time, they would put the price up (£28 pounds is a bargain for a years discounts for eight people imo, but for 16 people? they'd be putting themselves out of business!).

Banks, for example, will issue two bank cards because it is your money you are spending (and the bank get money for you using them!) and if you over spend, they get money from you. With railcards you are giving the railway LESS money over a year (in most cases).

There is a Costco within a few miles of my house who offer members (that pay for a card) the opportunity to BUY cards for other people they know. With railcards you only pay for one card, why should the railway give you another?

 

[Ferret]

Regarding earlier comments on "I can't understand how anyone doesn't keep their railcard on them", family railcard holders get ONE card between TWO holders which makes it far harder to keep track of where the card is.

Why does it?! Sorry, I just don't buy this excuse at all. The undertones of your post seem to read that you expect the TOCs to take responsibility for your disorganisation and I'm sorry but life just isn't like that!

 

[clagmonster]

A point which has been made yet not refuted regarding buying two tickets:

I know op was excessed, but say he had been sold a new SOS or SOR.

That day he writes a letter of complaint and posts it off to customer services. The following day (the day after the tickets were valid) they receive the letter. Enclosed a YP discounted ticket and a full fare for the same journey.

How do they know it wasn't two people travelling, one with a railcard, one without?

So even in that instance you have no opportunity for any reimbursement.

In the op's example, he sends in the original and the excess. Who is to say they were his, and not a friend who doesn't have a railcard trying it on. He gets home, tells his flatmate who has a railcard, who says he will pretend it was him, and write in.

So you see, there is no chance of any reimbursement after the event in my opinion.

A good point, well made. I suppose the way around it would be for the guard to endorse the unused discounted ticket (something along the lines of: no railcard, ticket 12345 issued), perhaps with an identifying factor such as his id number to prevent fraudsters writing this on themselves.

The other thing with this point is that all walk up tickets can be refunded subject to an admin fee. For example, presumably such a problem could arise if I buy a £20 ticket from a booking office, use it but don't get it gripped, then claim I chose not to use it and get a refund less the £10 admin fee, leaving me £10 in the good. I wouldn't do that as it is wrong, but what is there to stop a criminal doing so?

 

[Flamingo]

My wife and I took our daughter to London for some hospital treatment. We have a family railcard.

It was only on arriving at the station platform (having bought the tickets online and collected them from the machine at the station) that we realised that my wife couldn't find the railcard which she had previously assured me that she had on her person.

(We still haven't found it!).

Following no ticket checks on the outbound journey, and in hospital in London, I urgently wished to rectify the situation. But the Railcard website helpfully tells you that if you have lost your railcard and bought it online, your only option for a replacement is to pay a replacement fee (fine - it's just £5) and wait for the replacement card to arrive at your home address. The latter part is scarcely helpful or reasonable.

If we'd bought it at a station, we could simply pay the £5 at a station and get a replacement.

Given that the Railcard website has an online record of each purchase, there is no logical reason why stations cannot issue replacements IMHO.

Fortuitously Southeastern were equally unconcerned with ticket checking on our return journey as well, so no harm done and no loss.

Regarding earlier comments on "I can't understand how anyone doesn't keep their railcard on them", family railcard holders get ONE card between TWO holders which makes it far harder to keep track of where the card is. Most other organisations issue joint "members" with one card each - and I don't see why railcards are any different. Both I and my wife are both legitimately able to travel with a child, using the ticket. The only possible reason for restricting it to one card is to stop us each travelling, separately at the same time, with a different child - and surely that is scarcely a major revenue issue for ATOC!

I had a missing Family Railcard (along with missing child) a while ago. They refused my offer to excess the ticket for £30 and hid in the toilet (they were removed by BTP). They were fined £450, when it went to court.

I have been getting a LOT of Family railcard discounted (advance) tickets lately with no child, as they are sick. I let the first one away with it, I have charged all the others, as six in three weeks, all from the same small area, is a bit of a coincidence. I was told last Sunday that I was heartless, and "You don't care that my brother is sick in bed". My reply of "Either do you obviously, as you headed off to London for the weekend", didn't go down too well!

 

[mumrar]

I actually think it would great if TOCs could refund passengers in these circumstances, rather like a forgotten season ticket and so on.

XC have operated this policy since the day Arriva took charge, 28 day refund on production of a duplicate.........err, oh cr*p, that's a good thing but XC operate Voyagers, ergo I must make it sound bad somehow!!

 

[strange6]

I was told last Sunday that I was heartless, and "You don't care that my brother is sick in bed". My reply of "Either do you obviously, as you headed off to London for the weekend", didn't go down too well!

hahaha Nice one. You can just smell bull a mile off, can't you?!

 

[snail]

I know Family Railcards cover 'any adult' + 'any child', but claiming that the child ticket is for a sick younger brother is asking for trouble if you ask me.

 

[Tom B]

Slightly OT, but I tried to purchase a ticket with a YP discount at Waverley yesterday without my railcard (for travel in a weeks time) - no can do, said the assistant. Apparently East Coast have had an increase in the number of people travelling on railcard tickets without the railcard, so have decided to check everyone's railcard when they buy a ticket.

Or, as a cynic might suggest, the new ticket barriers can't pick up on them and the guards can't be bothered to check them all?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . the new ticket barriers can't pick up on them and the guards can't be bothered to check them all?

I couldn't really agree with the 'can't be bothered' remark, but it is a matter of fact that barrires do not require the production of the Railcard which validates the discount. For that reason, this does not seem to be an unreasonable procedure when selling tickets over the counter.

For that reason alone, it does not seem unreasonable for the card to be requested at the point of sale.
That does create difficulties for a minority of legitimate purchasers of course, but if their explanation can be heard and acepted (eg. I've ordered a Railcard for my self which will arrive and become valid before the date of travel, or the second ticket is for my aged parent who holds a Railcard), then this seems to be a reasonable request.
It doesn't stop abuse, but it is likely to reduce it.

 

[Mojo]

For that reason alone, it does not seem unreasonable for the card to be requested at the point of sale.
That does create difficulties for a minority of legitimate purchasers of course, but if their explanation can be heard and acepted (eg. I've ordered a Railcard for my self which will arrive and become valid before the date of travel, or the second ticket is for my aged parent who holds a Railcard), then this seems to be a reasonable request.
It doesn't stop abuse, but it is likely to reduce it.

However for a purchase not for immediate travel, it does seem a bit bonkers given one could buy online or from a self service machine without any such requirement. Seems to me that whilst there are alternative options to buy a ticket without the need to prove you hold a Railcard it seems a bit daft for a rule to exist to request to see a Railcard and even more strange for it to be enforced by a member of staff where doing so is likely to put the future of their job at risk by causing customers to bypass the ticket office in future.

 

[snail]

Slightly OT, but I tried to purchase a ticket with a YP discount at Waverley yesterday without my railcard (for travel in a weeks time) - no can do, said the assistant. Apparently East Coast have had an increase in the number of people travelling on railcard tickets without the railcard, so have decided to check everyone's railcard when they buy a ticket.

The T&Cs require you to show the railcard on purchase:

5. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

There is nothing to stop you though from ordering online and collecting from a TOD machine.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I know that it may sound like disorganisation, but it is quite unreasonable that two individuals cannot separately use their railcard at non-coinciding times.

E.g. my wife might (if I had two children) go away by train with one child for a few weeks to stay with relatives, leaving me with another child. She would have to take the railcard with her. During the fortnight she's away, I can't use the railcard to get the discount I'm entitled to - simply because the card is at the other end of the country! That isn't fair or logical.

As for controls over purchasing tickets over the counter without a railcard, whilst allowing online and ticket machine purposes, that's nonsense.

 

[Jonfun]

Hit the same problem trying to buy tickets fairly recently. I'm after 2 x 16-25 Railcard discounted tickets and one non-discounted. Being in Bury at the time decided to drive to Bolton to get them - big mistake, the only people selling tickets are Northern's G4S blokes (don't get me started...) from an Avantix. They couldn't/wouldn't issue me the tickets, so ended up having to go via Rochdale Station on the way home, with my railcard.
Except the booking clerk insists (and seemingly takes great pleasure in doing) on seeing *two* 16-25 railcards and their holders before he'll sell the tickets. Cheers Northern, that's very helpful. I want to exchange my money for the railways' services - why do they have to make it so much of a hassle to find someone who'll take it? If I hadn't been pressed for time I'd have used another TOC's booking office to make sure Northern didn't get any commission for the (in)convenience of booking tickets, and wasting my petrol.

I 100% agree and stand by the 'show railcard when buying' rule for on the day purchases. But for booking tickets in advance? I could book over telesales, or go online and do ToD without showing my railcard. I will need my railcard on the day, otherwise I'm going to have to shell out for a new ticket on the train anyway.

What if I was buying tickets for a larger group? Obviously a very large group could probably get group travel discounts from the TOC, but say I had 9 people, each with railcards - presumably, if we don't wish to use the web, Northern insist we all have a day out to the booking office to buy tickets for our day out? What if I want to do the same trip twice in a day? Do Northern expect me to buy two railcards to show at the time of booking, because I'll be buying 2 railcard discounted tickets?

Just seems daft. As Mojo said, how booking offices are going to survive when they won't actually sell you a ticket which will be perfectly valid when you come to use it, I don't know.

Jon

 

[yorkie]

Jonfun - were these Advance tickets? If so, could you book online? The obstructive people you encountered clearly want to do themselves out of a job, so I'd just book online if that's the way they want it (a shame but what can you do?)

If they were walk-on tickets, my advice is: don't buy in advance, there's no benefit is there? I wouldn't spend ages hunting down a station. If the ticket office isn't open and the tickets are not available from the machine when you travel, you can pay on board.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Slightly OT, but I tried to purchase a ticket with a YP discount at Waverley yesterday without my railcard (for travel in a weeks time) - no can do, said the assistant. Apparently East Coast have had an increase in the number of people travelling on railcard tickets without the railcard, so have decided to check everyone's railcard when they buy a ticket.

Or, as a cynic might suggest, the new ticket barriers can't pick up on them and the guards can't be bothered to check them all?

Perhaps the ticket office have been lazy and previously just assumed you have a valid railcard without actually checking, but now their boss (or his boss, etc) has picked up on it and has clamped down???

I once got a telling off for not checking a railcard holder had her railcard. It was "in her other jacket" that day and she happened to meet a guard who took exception to me having seen it every single day for eight months previously and didn't check it that day.

So not only did I get grief off of my boss, but also the railcard holder because it was her discounted fare (minus an admin fee) that could be refunded, not the new, more expensive, ticket she had to buy to travel.

Ofcourse it was my fault for not checking the railcard, I accept that I should have checked it, but she didn't see what she had done wrong (not carrying the railcard) and also blamed me for not telling her about the risks in not having it on her.

So you might say I have a different perspective on this. Discretion (not seeing the railcard) is great when your a passenger, but it is not a right you have.

However for a purchase not for immediate travel, it does seem a bit bonkers given one could buy online or from a self service machine without any such requirement. Seems to me that whilst there are alternative options to buy a ticket without the need to prove you hold a Railcard it seems a bit daft for a rule to exist to request to see a Railcard and even more strange for it to be enforced by a member of staff where doing so is likely to put the future of their job at risk by causing customers to bypass the ticket office in future.

There is a chap (well, I'm 99% certain of this) who does his best to buy railcard discounted fares in advance from a station without a railcard and applies for a refund after the day of travel.

He used to buy them at my station, then we asked for his railcard and he stopped buying tickets from us. A few months later he was back with some tickets to refund, bought with a railcard discount from another station. It transpires that the 'new' station can't recall seeing his railcard recently either and when they asked to see it (after he had travelled) he could not produce it.

You may be asking why he doesn't buy online? well, online sales always have an admin fee, unless the service is proved to be at fault, but his reasons rely on goodwill and the fee being waived (talking to people face to face).

At the moment 95% (est.) of the railcard holders who buy tickets from my station( in advance or otherwise) know to show their railcard when they buy there ticket and have no issue with doing so. I actually have more peopl moan about the minimum fare of the 16-25 card (because they didn't read the conditions) then I have moaning that I ask to see any of the railcards.

I know that it may sound like disorganisation, but it is quite unreasonable that two individuals cannot separately use their railcard at non-coinciding times.

E.g. my wife might (if I had two children) go away by train with one child for a few weeks to stay with relatives, leaving me with another child. She would have to take the railcard with her. During the fortnight she's away, I can't use the railcard to get the discount I'm entitled to - simply because the card is at the other end of the country! That isn't fair or logical....

Sounds like disorganisation and excuses to blame someone else for your failings. Why can't the person holding the card buy any tickets needed to be used with it? You are only entitled to a discount if you can produce the railcard. It doesn't matter if it is asked for or not, but if it is, you must be able to show it. I can't just walk into my local cash & carry without showing my members card, they don't allow it, I still need to show the card when I buy stuff, but do I argue about the need to see it when I walk in? No I don't.

I think it is quite unreasonable, unfair and illogical to expect staff (of any industry or company) to bend over backwards or turn a blind eye, for people who are unable to be organised enough to carry a credit sized piece of card (when they know they need it) with them when they need to use it.

Hit the same problem trying to buy tickets fairly recently. I'm after 2 x 16-25 Railcard discounted tickets and one non-discounted. Being in Bury at the time decided to drive to Bolton to get them - big mistake, the only people selling tickets are Northern's G4S blokes (don't get me started...) from an Avantix. They couldn't/wouldn't issue me the tickets, so ended up having to go via Rochdale Station on the way home, with my railcard.
Except the booking clerk insists (and seemingly takes great pleasure in doing) on seeing *two* 16-25 railcards and their holders before he'll sell the tickets. Cheers Northern, that's very helpful. I want to exchange my money for the railways' services - why do they have to make it so much of a hassle to find someone who'll take it? If I hadn't been pressed for time I'd have used another TOC's booking office to make sure Northern didn't get any commission for the (in)convenience of booking tickets, and wasting my petrol....

To be honest, if someone is travelling in a group (even for two people) I would ask to see as many railcards as is reasonable to show. Some people I sell tickets to plan ahead and bring all the railcards they need (including those of other people), but often I only ask for those I can reasonably see at the time of purchase.

However the rules are clear, you must show the railcard when buying the ticket, if the clerk insists on seeing all of them they are doing their job, they may be taking it to far (not showing enough discretion), but why they should be slated for doing their job is beyond me.

Equally, I should mention that I have known of railcards to be withdrawn on the basis that the person attempting to buy tickets (for a railcard holder who is not present) is not the railcard holder (for whom the tickets are intended), but how does the clerk know that the person buying the tickets (a) has no intention of using the tickets themselves? or (b) even knows who the holder actually is?

Ticket clerks (and Guards/RPIs) can show discretion but at the same time have to be [reasonably] certain that the system is not being abused. Sounds like a large case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" to me.

 

[blacknight]

Slightly OT, but I tried to purchase a ticket with a YP discount at Waverley yesterday without my railcard (for travel in a weeks time) - no can do, said the assistant. Apparently East Coast have had an increase in the number of people travelling on railcard tickets without the railcard, so have decided to check everyone's railcard when they buy a ticket.

Or, as a cynic might suggest, the new ticket barriers can't pick up on them and the guards can't be bothered to check them all?

Don't blame the ticket office staff for doing job correctly for as system is at present TOC's are quite happy to offer the dishonest the opportunity to purchase ticket at discounted rate from TVM or internet.
How can ATOC justify the 2 tier approach to having forgot your railcard go to a manned ticket office & you can pay the excess but if checked onboard bang you for open single fare?:-x can this rule applied if station as no manned office as TVM cannot yet excess a ticket.
So for once it actually pays to not to buy ticket at all for make a mistake & forget your railcard get charged twice, whereas a fare evader only get charged once:roll: if caught

 

[jon0844]

If someone buys a group of tickets with only one or two railcards, can't it become an accepted 'rule' that restrictions advised is written on all of the tickets?

I do think it's perhaps unfair in the case of group travel to have the chance that some staff will show discretion and others won't. That's unworkable in reality as Joe Public don't know what mood the seller will be in on the day. It has to be ALL railcards or NO railcards (for tickets bought for future travel).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If someone buys a group of tickets with only one or two railcards, can't it become an accepted 'rule' that restrictions advised is written on all of the tickets?

I do think it's perhaps unfair in the case of group travel to have the chance that some staff will show discretion and others won't. That's unworkable in reality as Joe Public don't know what mood the seller will be in on the day. It has to be ALL railcards or NO railcards (for tickets bought for future travel).

The rules/conditions are that all railcards (and the holders) must be present when the tickets are bought and when travelling, but that starts to get silly for large groups and discretion is often shown to ease the process.

 

[jon0844]

Discretion is fine, but how does the person know how much (or how little) discretion will be shown in each case?

I hate red tape as much as anyone else, but there perhaps need to be some guidelines or a workaround that is recognised. Making it clear that the advanced tickets were sold without 'sight' of the railcard does mean that anyone caught on the train could be prosecuted WITHOUT discretion as it was clear a railcard had NEVER been seen. Likewise, it would stop any subsequent claims for a refund.

 

[snail]

I 100% agree and stand by the 'show railcard when buying' rule for on the day purchases. But for booking tickets in advance? I could book over telesales, or go online and do ToD without showing my railcard. I will need my railcard on the day, otherwise I'm going to have to shell out for a new ticket on the train anyway.

We need to be careful how much noise we make about not needing to show a railcard if buying online in advance. If abuse of the system is as widespread as some on here are making out, then the rules could be tightened up so that discounted tickets cannot be collected from a machine, only by personal application to a ticket office, showing a railcard.