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What happens when you miss a train with an Advance ticket (because of a prior delay)?

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All Line Rover

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Tomorrow (Saturday) I will make the following journey:
  • Whitchurch [07:04] to Crewe [07:22] (ATW - Anytime ticket)
  • Crewe [07:55] to London Euston [09:46] (VT - Advance ticket)
If the [07:04] service from Whitchurch is delayed (or cancelled) so that I miss my connecting [07:55] train from Crewe which has an Advance ticket, am I still allowed to take the next available service?
 
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John @ home

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If the [07:04] service from Whitchurch is delayed (or cancelled) so that I miss my connecting [07:55] train from Crewe which has an Advance ticket, am I still allowed to take the next available service?
Yes. Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage gives you the right to use more than one ticket for a single journey. In this case your journey is from Whitchurch to London Euston.

The Conditions of use section of Advance ticket terms and conditions states
If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
 

pemma

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However, don't be surprised if the Virgin 'Train Manager' makes you buy a new ticket if you miss your connection but you can quote from NRCoC when trying to get a refund later on.
 

Ferret

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However, don't be surprised if the Virgin 'Train Manager' makes you buy a new ticket if you miss your connection but you can quote from NRCoC when trying to get a refund later on.

The words that sprang instantly to my mind were 'not this again'!!!
 

WelshBluebird

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However, don't be surprised if the Virgin 'Train Manager' makes you buy a new ticket if you miss your connection but you can quote from NRCoC when trying to get a refund later on.

Surely that cannot be correct?
If the NRCoC covers you, then surely you would be within your rights to refuse to buy a new ticket?
I know that is exactly what I would do.

Slightly off topic, that is one thing I don't understand about the railways. Why are people often expected to pay and then sort out a refund later on if they are entitled to one? What about people who cannot afford to stump up for a second ticket (especially on longer distance routes like Crewe to London where the cost of buying a new ticket is quite high)?
 

All Line Rover

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Must all trains carry a copy of the NRCoc? It that is the case, can't you just ask to see it so that you can point out to the TM the condition?
 

bb21

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However, don't be surprised if the Virgin 'Train Manager' makes you buy a new ticket if you miss your connection but you can quote from NRCoC when trying to get a refund later on.

I hope people have learned to not hand over any money under whatever circumstance. I wouldn't trust any TOC to refund overpaid fares swiftly, least of all Virgin.
 

John @ home

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don't be surprised if the Virgin 'Train Manager' makes you buy a new ticket if you miss your connection but you can quote from NRCoC when trying to get a refund later on.
This is very unlikely and the issuing of Advance fares - FAQs by ATOC on 30 June 2011 makes it even less likely. Our advice when asked to pay when you are certain that your ticket is valid remains:
  • don't pay any money on the spot
  • politely accept an Unpaid Fares Notice
  • come back to this forum for advice on how to challenge it.
 

Smethwickian

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Those more au fait with staff at Crewe might know how helpful they are, but if the OP has time at Crewe, is there any advantage to going to the ticket office or customer service point to get them to endorse his onward AP ticket or issue some kind of (free) excess?
 

All Line Rover

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Those more au fait with staff at Crewe might know how helpful they are, but if the OP has time at Crewe, is there any advantage to going to the ticket office or customer service point to get them to endorse his onward AP ticket or issue some kind of (free) excess?

Yes, I would definitely do that first. (Hopefully Martin the manager would be there! :D)
 

Ferret

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Must all trains carry a copy of the NRCoc? It that is the case, can't you just ask to see it so that you can point out to the TM the condition?

I carry a copy in my kitbag. Can be useful for both me and the pax....
 

VideozVideoz

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Tomorrow (Saturday) I will make the following journey:
  • Whitchurch [07:04] to Crewe [07:22] (ATW - Anytime ticket)
  • Crewe [07:55] to London Euston [09:46] (VT - Advance ticket)
If the [07:04] service from Whitchurch is delayed (or cancelled) so that I miss my connecting [07:55] train from Crewe which has an Advance ticket, am I still allowed to take the next available service?

Drive to Crewe then there's only 1 train to catch!
 

pemma

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The main problem is that the Virgin on-train staff would only have your word that the train was delayed or cancelled, & it is an excuse used by less scrupulous people as a dodge to try to travel fraudulently.

So Virgin staff don't even have a mobile phone?
 

brompton rail

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I would ask the conductor on the late running train to endorse my Whitchurch - Crewe ticket to the effect that the train was xx minutes late.
 

Pumbaa

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Sorry to intervene on a tangent, but this is baseless.

If it's based on personal experience, then it is not baseless. In 2008, they were recognised as one of the slowest TOCs to respond to customer problems, but that was the last time I think they ran that survey/exercise. Recent experience on forums and talking to travellers indicates that this isn't the case.

On a personal note, I've had reason to complain to Virgin twice with a refund matter. On one occasion, they dealt with it in 27 days, but satisfactorily. On the second occasion, it took two months as it went full circle "it's not our fault, it was Northern's fault, Merseyrail's fault, London Midland's fault, okay it was our fault".
 

Wolf_359

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So Virgin staff don't even have a mobile phone?

They probably do, but I assume that when you have a full train to do a ticket check on you might not have time to be able to make a phone call (as it would probabley take a while to confirm) & then there is the unreliability of mobile phones on the train due to infrastucture blocking the signal.
 

pemma

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They probably do, but I assume that when you have a full train to do a ticket check on you might not have time to be able to make a phone call (as it would probabley take a while to confirm) & then there is the unreliability of mobile phones on the train due to infrastucture blocking the signal.

The conductor has over 45 minutes to check tickets between Crewe and Rugby on the quoted Crewe-London leg. If it was a Manchester-London service with a Crewe call the train does Crewe-London non-stop (around 1hr 40.)

Northbound, from my experience, tickets are checked on the platform at Euston station then the only ticket check on board is done for passengers sat in FC.
 

trainophile

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Tomorrow (Saturday) I will make the following journey:
  • Whitchurch [07:04] to Crewe [07:22] (ATW - Anytime ticket)
  • Crewe [07:55] to London Euston [09:46] (VT - Advance ticket)
If the [07:04] service from Whitchurch is delayed (or cancelled) so that I miss my connecting [07:55] train from Crewe which has an Advance ticket, am I still allowed to take the next available service?

I'm really surprised by all the replies saying this would be okay. As I read it, you have booked two journeys, so I'd have thought the situation would be the same as if e.g. you were travelling to Crewe by bus and it was delayed.

I've learnt something here... unless the couple of posts saying "not this again" are meaning that in fact the booked AP train cannot in fact be substituted for a later one without purchasing a new ticket.

If the OP means he has booked Whitchurch - Euston as one journey (with one journey ticket, apart from seat reservations), and it happens to require a change at Crewe, then that of course is a different matter.
 

OwlMan

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I'm really surprised by all the replies saying this would be okay. As I read it, you have booked two journeys, so I'd have thought the situation would be the same as if e.g. you were travelling to Crewe by bus and it was delayed.

I've learnt something here... unless the couple of posts saying "not this again" are meaning that in fact the booked AP train cannot in fact be substituted for a later one without purchasing a new ticket.

If the OP means he has booked Whitchurch - Euston as one journey (with one journey ticket, apart from seat reservations), and it happens to require a change at Crewe, then that of course is a different matter.

read the first post in this thread
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48377
 

John @ home

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As I read it, you have booked two journeys, so I'd have thought the situation would be the same as if e.g. you were travelling to Crewe by bus and it was delayed.
These two situations are quite different. This is shown by this extract from The Manual, an internal railway industry set of instructions to staff, first posted by hairyhandedfool in Advance Fares FAQs.
Advance fares FAQS - From the Manual (FRPP)

Q22. Can a passenger travel on any other service than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A.
the following principles apply. ...

2) Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the train company or its partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passsengers on valid:
  • Through domestic or international tickets. e.g. Brighton-Scarborough route TOC X & connections;
  • Through[/U] rail and partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12-Leeds, Wisbeach coach-York, Ryde Pier-Hull, etc;
  • Combination of rail only tickets, e.g. Rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds and Advance Leeds-Peterborough, or adjoining advance fares;
  • Combination of rail and partner tickets, e.g. Brighton-Zone U12 plus advance London-Manchester, or e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket, plus advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull;
  • All Zones Travelcards, PTE-products (where rail is included) plus advance fares, etc;
  • Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance tickets from London terminals or "London Intnl CIV" or Lndon Eurostar CIV;
Not included for the avoidance of doubt, are:
  • Non train company travel on separate tickets, e.g. tickets that begin on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (this includes "PlusBus", which is a local day-rover bus ticket not compatible with a medium/long distance advance single ticket, so are kept as separate tickets), or;
  • Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (allowable where electronically checked, verified and advance ticket endorsed in travel centres).
Please note that there is no change to:
a) Any other rules e.g. trains stopping where tickets join together (NRCoC 19), nor;
b) The need to verify that a train has been delayed on route and ticket endorsed, nor;
c) Any other passenger entitlements as defined by the NRCoC or CIV conditions, nor;
d) General ATOC disruption guidance
e) [Staff] discretion in extreme circumstances. ....
 

DaveNewcastle

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Could you point me to which Q no. on that post refers to this particular situation, as although I've read it I'm still not clear.
As collybs indicated to you, the first question & answer should provide you with all the assurance you need. Here it is again
Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.
 

All Line Rover

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[QUOTE="The Manual" - which ATOC likes to hide from us members of the public so that we are unable to show it to Train Managers when we are questioned!!!]Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.[/QUOTE]

So if an Advance+Advance combination can be classed as a single journey, it seems reasonable that an Anytime+Advance combination can be classed as a single journey. :)
 
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