Clapham Junction to Kingston

[CheapAndNerdy]

This is hypothetical - no real journeys were harmed during the writing of this post.

Going to Barnes I caught a train which was announced as going to Teddington, but at the next stop, Wandsworth Town, the announcement was changed to Kingston. I do not believe this to be an announcement error as this route to Kingston (from Waterloo and Clapham Junction) is the long way round. Now the Routeing Guide states that the only valid route is via Wimbledon (map WW), so I am wondering if not announcing Kingston until after Clapham Junction is in effect mandating travel via Wimbledon (as it is not officially a direct service) or if it is simply trying to be helpful and preventing passengers from taking the slower route?

 

[yorkie]

I can't understand that.

If a train is shown as being direct in the timetable, then it's a direct train. Announcements are not relevant in that process. All trains from London to Kingston are valid trains for holders of London to Kingston tickets without any need to check the Routeing Guide (RG). The RG only needs to be consulted if the route is not the shortest (or within 3 miles of it) or the train is not direct.

Anyone at [stn]BNS[/stn] wanting to go to [stn]KNG[/stn], would certainly want that train, and it is certainly not a "long way round" for that journey, being the most direct route, so it doesn't make sense that the train wasn't advertised properly until [stn]WNT[/stn].

Was this journey today? What time was it?

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Anyone at [stn]BNS[/stn] wanting to go to [stn]KNG[/stn], would certainly want that train, and it is certainly not a "long way round" for that journey, being the most direct route, so it doesn't make sense that the train wasn't advertised properly until [stn]WNT[/stn].

Was this journey today? What time was it?

Starting from Waterloo or Clapham Junction it is the long way round. My mention of Barnes was extraneous background information and can be ignored. Sorry for any confusion.

The train was today (Sunday) 14:24. According to NRE (for Next Sunday) it's the circular service from Waterloo to Waterloo. Maybe the circular nature of the route accounts for why the destination changes en-route. Whether that has any material impact on ticket validity I don't know.

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyone at [stn]BNS[/stn]

Apologies for the off topic post but I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone put [stn]BNS[/stn] and actually mean Barnes rather than Birmingham New Street!

Also since when have we had [stn ][ /stn] tags because that's cool!

 

[yorkie]

Agreed, I wouldn't expect it to be advertised to Kingston at Waterloo or Clapham.

But I would expect it to be advertised to Kingston at BNS.

And yes, the circular nature would explain why the destination changes (this can also happen for slow trains, e.g. Didcot-London stoppers are advertised as terminating at Ealing Broadway until Reading, inclusive), and announcements have no impact on validity whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologies for the off topic post but I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone put [stn]BNS[/stn] and actually mean Barnes rather than Birmingham New Street!

We've had it a few times actually

And yes people must use correct abbreviations (or simply don't abbreviate!)

Also since when have we had [stn ][ /stn] tags because that's cool!

For a while actually! just type: [stn]CRS[/stn] (where "CRS" is the 3-letter CRS code for that station)

 

[ainsworth74]

For a while actually! just type: [stn]CRS[/stn] (where "CRS" is the 3-letter CRS code for that station)

I should start paying attention because that's quite a useful feature!

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Agreed, I wouldn't expect it to be advertised to Kingston at Waterloo or Clapham.

So would you agree that a Clapham Junction-Kingston ticket would be actually invalid on this service? If so, what if a holder of such a ticket boarded "short" at Wandsworth Town? As I said, this is hypothetical as no such journey has been made by me, but given the complexities of figuring valid routes I think it is quite intriguing.

But I would expect it to be advertised to Kingston at BNS.

Mentioning Barnes was obviously a bad idea. I just happened to be travelling there. To be clear, Kingston was the stated destination from Wandsworth Town and Putney. I got off at Barnes so I didn't take notice of what was announced there.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, sorry I got confused, I see it was not announced as going to Kingston at Clapham Jn, but from Wandsworth Town, Putney, Barnes etc it was announced as such. That's what I'd expect

Yes a Clapham to Kingston ticket must be valid on a direct train via Wandsworth & Barnes.

Is it valid to break your journey at an intermediate point, when on a direct train that takes a route that is not permitted? That is the question. I would not recommend it. I think this is something that perhaps ATOC could clarify (and, if they do, I can guarantee that they will say it isn't valid). Until they clarify it, you could try it - just be prepared to have an argument, and perhaps fight it in court if necessary. It's the trains that are valid, not the route. The ticket is unlikely to work the barriers. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Lampshade]

It's the same way as Weybridge via Hounslow services are advertised as Addlestone from Waterloo/Clapham Junction, it's no less valid on that service, just mind numbingly slow.

However, you can't can board at say, Mortlake and go the 'long way round' to Clapham Junction.

 

[yorkie]

However, you can't board at say, Mortlake and go the 'long way round' to Clapham Junction.

Huh? A ticket from Mortlake to Clapham Jn is valid on any direct train, irrespective of which route it takes.

The long way round would be via Kingston. What's invalid about that?

 

[Lampshade]

Huh? A ticket from Mortlake to Clapham Jn is valid on any direct train, irrespective of which route it takes.

The long way round would be via Kingston. What's invalid about that?

It's only 1/2 stops direct to [STN]CLJ[/STN], would it be valid via Feltham, Hounslow and Chiswick? :?

It's like travelling via Wimbledon and Kingston when going Earlsfield - Clapham Junction, even though it runs direct.

 

[yorkie]

The shortest route is valid.
Mapped routes are valid.
Direct trains are valid irrespective of route.

There are direct trains via Feltham, Hounslow and Chiswick, so yes that is valid, however I don't think that a break of journey (including starting/finishing short) is permitted at any intermediate station along an invalid route, and I know it isn't intended to be. I suspect this will be clarified at some point to make it clear that BOJ isn't valid.

 

[Lampshade]

Mind boggled but I stand corrected hock:

 

[John @ home]

the Routeing Guide states that the only valid route is via Wimbledon (map WW)

The Routeing Guide tells us that the only mapped route is via Wimbledon. But that does not mean that this is the only Permitted Route.

WHEN TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey. The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.

These trains are shown in Table 149 of the National Rail Timetable as through trains Waterloo - Waterloo. Therefore travel Clapham Jn - Richmond - Kingston on these through trains is Permitted.

I am wondering if not announcing Kingston until after Clapham Junction is in effect mandating travel via Wimbledon (as it is not officially a direct service) or if it is simply trying to be helpful and preventing passengers from taking the slower route?

The train company's practice is to announce a useful destination rather than the actual one. At Richmond, Wimbledon is announced and vice-versa.

Maybe the circular nature of the route accounts for why the destination changes en-route. Whether that has any material impact on ticket validity I don't know.

The fact that it is a through train makes an impact on ticket validity. See above.

So would you agree that a Clapham Junction-Kingston ticket would be actually invalid on this service?

No. It is valid on any through train Clapham Junction to Kingston.

what if a holder of such a ticket boarded "short" at Wandsworth Town?

Given London's zonal system, I see little point in doing this. All Clapham Jn - Kingston fares are identical to Wandsworth Town - Kingston fares.

 

[Techniquest]

Didcot-London stoppers are advertised as terminating at Ealing Broadway until Reading, inclusive)

Just to clarify, do you mean at Reading they're advertised as going to Paddington, or Twyford and onwards to London? As at Reading, they're advertised as only going to Ealing Broadway, although a special note about that has been put on the departures screen I noticed in January.

As for the CRS code thing, that's quite funky!

 

[David Goddard]

It has always been the case that if the service calls at origin and destination then it must be permitted.
A few years ago, there used to be an 0835 London to Exeter service that shed a portion for Brighton at Basingstoke. London - Brighton tickets were valid on this as it was a through train.
Likewise, a London - Peterborough ticket was perfectly valid on NXEA's London- Ipswich - Peterborough service that ran until last year.

There are many instances where departure boards display stopping trains that get overtaken as having a destination short of their actual terminus.
From Paddington, a Reading stopper will come up as Twyford, while an Oxford train may show as Radley.
At Kings Cross, the Cambridge stoppers that get overtaken by the non stoppers are always shown as Foxton.
Likewise, up North, the Harrogate line trains are typically shown (and announced) as going to Poppleton or Burley Park

 

[wibble]

The shortest route is valid.
Mapped routes are valid.
Direct trains are valid irrespective of route.

There are direct trains via Feltham, Hounslow and Chiswick, so yes that is valid, however I don't think that a break of journey (including starting/finishing short) is permitted at any intermediate station along an invalid route, and I know it isn't intended to be. I suspect this will be clarified at some point to make it clear that BOJ isn't valid.

Break of journey rules wouldn't apply if your journey was on Oyster PAYG though as you'd pay for each individual journey (assuming you touch in and out) until you reach the daily cap. There is more of an issue with point-to-point paper tickets which people think are valid for break of journey on SWT's loop services but aren't. (I've had a run in with SWT over this issue before!)

 

[island]

There is more of an issue with point-to-point paper tickets which people think are valid for break of journey on SWT's loop services but aren't. (I've had a run in with SWT over this issue before!)

Why aren't they valid for break of journey?

 

[OwlMan]

Why aren't they valid for break of journey?

because that is what the NCOC say

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

If you are travelling on a non mapped route (which is not the shortest) you may travel between the stations shown on the ticket by a through train.

To travel on a through train you can not break the journey (or even get off the train) between the stations shown on your ticket.

The NRG is less commital

A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route
may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete
the journey.

It does say that it may not be a permitted route if a change of trains is necessary to complete the journey and having got off a train to break your journey a change is obviously part of completing that journey. Therefore it may not be a permitted route. (presumably if it is not mapped it is not ).

Peter

 

[island]

I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the conditions. If I do for the sake of argument, what about finishing short?

 

[yorkie]

I suspect this will be clarified in due course, to make it clear you can't finish short in such circumstances. It's not totally clear at present.

 

[LexyBoy]

I think the reasoning is that you are not travelling on a permitted route; it is the train which is permitted. Therefore if you step off the train, you're deviating from route.

However it certainly isn't clearly worded.

 

[bb21]

I suspect this will be clarified in due course, to make it clear you can't finish short in such circumstances. It's not totally clear at present.

I agree, however until such time that it is clarified by ATOC, I would think that they will continue to be challenged by some people and there is very little they can do imho.

 

[wibble]

I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the conditions. If I do for the sake of argument, what about finishing short?

Finishing short would be treated as a break of journey as you're not travelling to the destination on the ticket. Of course, this isn't a problem if the journey complies with NRCOC 13a ii or iii.