Advance tickets with seperate reservation coupons

[Yew]

Mods' note: Split from Charged for a new ticket due to accidentally discarding reservation coupon

A reservation could easily be mistaken for something to do with card confirmation/receipts and then thrown away.

Its a shame they couldnt print receipts on normal paper (like shopping till roll) to help avoid that.

 

[Flamingo]

Never throw anything away until you get home, is my advice uttered nearly every day.

In this circumstance then the first thing I will ask to see is the e-mail of booked online - if that confirms the trip, then I'll accept it.

If the trip involves multiple changes / reservations, I'll look at the other reservations and work out (using Avantex if need be) would they have been told to get this train.

If I have to go ringing Telesales to see if I can get an answer, then we are hitting dangerous territory. If I am wasting that amount of time, and they turn out NOT to be booked on the train, then any hope of an excess has gone out the window, and the possibility of a full open is looming, as they have tried to commit fraud (and worse, buggered me about). This has happened on several occasions when people have been in suits and "I can assure you young man, I am booked on this train, are you calling me a liar" has been their initial approach.

Sometimes (only sometimes) I have a reservations list, and if it is an "unusual" reservation I can look it up. The list usually doesn't have a name or ticket number, but if it is, say four people from Reading to Neath, I can look up the list, see if that is on the list, and if it is, check the booked seats to see if anyone turned up. A single from Pad to Cdf will not work with this, though!

The other thing I will do (although NOT obliged to, I hasten to add) is offer to issue a UPFN (full price), that will be cancelled if they print off the e-mail when they get home and send it back with the UPFN OR pay the walk-up price now and that's the end of it.

The genuine ones take the UPFN, the chancers pay the super-off-peak.

And DodgyDave, don't blame the guard for your own inability to get your act together. He sounds to have been a lot more competent than you.

 

[exile]

London-Berlin DB special return, two people, 3 legs each way, with reservations.
ONE TICKET.
Warrington-Newcastle, 3 people, 2 legs each way, with reservations and receipts.
FOURTEEN TICKETS.

 

[Flamingo]

London-Berlin DB special return, two people, 3 legs each way, with reservations.
ONE TICKET.
Warrington-Newcastle, 3 people, 2 legs each way, with reservations and receipts.
FOURTEEN TICKETS.

Your point is?

 

[exile]

Never throw anything away until you get home, is my advice uttered nearly every day.

In this circumstance then the first thing I will ask to see is the e-mail of booked online - if that confirms the trip, then I'll accept it.

If the trip involves multiple changes / reservations, I'll look at the other reservations and work out (using Avantex if need be) would they have been told to get this train.

If I have to go ringing Telesales to see if I can get an answer, then we are hitting dangerous territory. If I am wasting that amount of time, and they turn out NOT to be booked on the train, then any hope of an excess has gone out the window, and the possibility of a full open is looming, as they have tried to commit fraud (and worse, buggered me about). This has happened on several occasions when people have been in suits and "I can assure you young man, I am booked on this train, are you calling me a liar" has been their initial approach.

Sometimes (only sometimes) I have a reservations list, and if it is an "unusual" reservation I can look it up. The list usually doesn't have a name or ticket number, but if it is, say four people from Reading to Neath, I can look up the list, see if that is on the list, and if it is, check the booked seats to see if anyone turned up. A single from Pad to Cdf will not work with this, though!

The other thing I will do is offer to issue a UPFN (full price), that will be cancelled if they print off the e-mail when they get home and send it back with the UPFN OR pay the walk-up price now and that's the end of it.

The genuine ones take the UPFN, the chancers pay the super-off-peak.

Shows there's something wrong with the system. When I book the ticket that should create a record on the system than on-train staff ought to be able to access instantly to verify all is OK. That, or the reservation should be printed ON THE TICKET where it's a "with reservation only" booking. Try as I can, I can't think of any reason this shouldn't happen, other than to trap the odd passenger who throws away the wrong ticket. When presented with a huge stack of ticket it's a source of stress trying to keep track of them all.

 

[Bungle73]

A reservation could easily be mistaken for something to do with card confirmation/receipts and then thrown away.

But it says in great big letters at the top of the ticket "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATION(S)".

Its a shame they couldnt print receipts on normal paper (like shopping till roll) to help avoid that.

Perhaps, but that would meaning have two printing systems in tickets machines.

 

[4SRKT]

I recently bought advances to go with EC to take my family from Alnmouth to Edinburgh and back. TWENTY tickets came out to the ToD machine at Leeds, plus the confirmation of collection or whatever they are. By the time the last one was printed, tickets were spilling out of the collection tray thing at the bottom of the machine. I couldn't actually get all the tickets into my Family Railcard wallet. An utter farce, and hardly surprising that normals don't always get what they do and don't need.

I also took the family by train to Newcastle, but rather than issue 10 tickets for XC only anytime day returns (an utter bargain for 2 adults and 3 kids at £15.35 ), he put my wife and I on one and the kids on another, resulting in just 4 tickets. He could have even done it on 2 tickets I suppose, but this would have made getting through the barriers at Newcastle something like an Olympic event. Good to see a bit of common sense for once.

Once again we see seasoned railway travellers (of which I am one) and professionals sneering at normals for not getting the ludicrous system that we understand, and if we are honest all know how to legally manipulate to ensure that the TOCs probably lose money nearly every time they carry one of us. OK, so we are not doing anything 'illegal', but in such a crazy system the distinction between travelling very cheaply as we can do and an honest mistake by an inexperienced normal is pretty blurred so far as the good of the railways is concerned.

 

[Darandio]

But what does this thread have to do with the amount of tickets issued for x amount of journeys.

The simple fact here is a reservation coupon was thrown away which was required, it is a requirement to use this coupon along with your ticket, it says as much on the coupon itself. If the OP has thrown this away, it is their fault, not the fault of how "broken" the system is.

I guess if nothing else, there is a strong moral to the story here.

 

[SS4]

London-Berlin DB special return, two people, 3 legs each way, with reservations.
ONE TICKET.
Warrington-Newcastle, 3 people, 2 legs each way, with reservations and receipts.
FOURTEEN TICKETS.

Shows there's something wrong with the system.

On the contrary, our system is rather sensible because it's much more modular which is more resistant in case something goes wrong. What our system did was treat each person separately and therefore independently of the other two.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But what does this thread have to do with the amount of tickets issued for x amount of journeys.

The simple fact here is a reservation coupon was thrown away which was required, it is a requirement to use this coupon along with your ticket, it says as much on the coupon itself. If the OP has thrown this away, it is their fault, not the fault of how "broken" the system is.

I guess if nothing else, there is a strong moral to the story here.

Because it's never their own fault nowadays.

To quote Bender from Futurama It's everyone else's fault but mine!

 

[exile]

But what does this thread have to do with the amount of tickets issued for x amount of journeys.


The simple fact here is a reservation coupon was thrown away which was required, it is a requirement to use this coupon along with your ticket, it says as much on the coupon itself. If the OP has thrown this away, it is their fault, not the fault of how "broken" the system is.

I guess if nothing else, there is a strong moral to the story here.

Sorry, I have to disagree 100%. The industry, yet again, makes things as difficult as possible for the poor passenger that generates their profits, and penalises said passenger for making a mistake. And why is there a separate coupon - print the reservation on the ticket, for Pete's sake!

 

[Flamingo]

I recently bought advances to go with EC to take my family from Alnmouth to Edinburgh and back. TWENTY tickets came out to the ToD machine at Leeds, plus the confirmation of collection or whatever they are. By the time the last one was printed, tickets were spilling out of the collection tray thing at the bottom of the machine. I couldn't actually get all the tickets into my Family Railcard wallet. An utter farce, and hardly surprising that normals don't always get what they do and don't need.

Once again we see seasoned railway travellers (of which I am one) and professionals sneering at normals for not getting the ludicrous system that we understand, and if we are honest all know how to legally manipulate to ensure that the TOCs probably lose money nearly every time they carry one of us. OK, so we are not doing anything 'illegal', but in such a crazy system the distinction between travelling very cheaply as we can do and an honest mistake by an inexperienced normal is pretty blurred so far as the good of the railways is concerned.

Every piece of paper has written on it what it is. Easy enough to read them and sort them out, even for "normals" (which phrase I find condescending and patronising, by the way).

Or just give the whole bundle to the Guard and say "It's one of those", and we'll sort it out.

I also took the family by train to Newcastle, but rather than issue 10 tickets for XC only anytime day returns (an utter bargain for 2 adults and 3 kids at £15.35 ), he put my wife and I on one and the kids on another, resulting in just 4 tickets. He could have even done it on 2 tickets I suppose, but this would have made getting through the barriers at Newcastle something like an Olympic event. Good to see a bit of common sense for once.

I believe it is a ticketing standard that all passengers must be issued with an individual ticket. At least that's what I've been told by someone senior when I asked why group 3/4 tickets could not be issued on one ticket by ticket offices.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, I have to disagree 100%. The industry, yet again, makes things as difficult as possible for the poor passenger that generates their profits, and penalises said passenger for making a mistake. And why is there a separate coupon - print the reservation on the ticket, for Pete's sake!

I agree the system makes things difficult for passengers, but there isn't room on the ticket for reservations, especially for a longer journey.

 

[SS4]

Sorry, I have to disagree 100%. The industry, yet again, makes things as difficult as possible for the poor passenger that generates their profits, and penalises said passenger for making a mistake. And why is there a separate coupon - print the reservation on the ticket, for Pete's sake!

If they [passengers] want everything on a plate they have to pay for it

Passengers aren't thick, thousands of people use advance tickets correctly every year. There isn't enough room to print reservations on the ticket, the alternative; replacing the stock would be very expensive.

 

[4SRKT]

Sorry, I have to disagree 100%. The industry, yet again, makes things as difficult as possible for the poor passenger that generates their profits, and penalises said passenger for making a mistake. And why is there a separate coupon - print the reservation on the ticket, for Pete's sake!

I have to agree. The only reason for having a separate ticket must be to trap the unwary. The ticket says 'valid only with reservation(s)', but an inexperienced traveller may not realise that this actually means a separate ticket (in what other walk of life do you have to carry around so many bits of card - 4 per person for a return journey on advances - for a single transaction, the loss of any one of which will cause huge problems?), but that there will be some other way to identify that he is on the correct train. It would not surprise me at all to learn that TOCs actually budget for a proportion of their revenue to come from this lucrative stream. The fact that we understand the system does NOT make it either (a) easy to understand, (b) logical, or (c) unimprovable.

 

[Flamingo]

Shows there's something wrong with the system. When I book the ticket that should create a record on the system than on-train staff ought to be able to access instantly to verify all is OK. That, or the reservation should be printed ON THE TICKET where it's a "with reservation only" booking. Try as I can, I can't think of any reason this shouldn't happen, other than to trap the odd passenger who throws away the wrong ticket. When presented with a huge stack of ticket it's a source of stress trying to keep track of them all.

The system is that the ticket is issued with a reservation slip and both parts are required.

It is not difficult, hundreds of people manage it every day on my trains alone. They cover every age group, sex, class, ethnic group and I presume educational level.

If anybody wants to avoid the "stress" of having to deal with this, then buy flexible tickets, and there won't be any compulsory reservation to worry about.

 

[4SRKT]

If they [passengers] want everything on a plate they have to pay for it

Passengers aren't thick, thousands of people use advance tickets correctly every year. There isn't enough room to print reservations on the ticket, the alternative; replacing the stock would be very expensive.

Nonsense. There is plenty of empty space on the ticket. Abbreviate the station names by a couple of characters or something if you must, but the space is there for a redesign without changing the stock.

 

[exile]

On the contrary, our system is rather sensible because it's much more modular which is more resistant in case something goes wrong. What our system did was treat each person separately and therefore independently of the other two.

That makes sense up to the point of one ticket per person - but not 14 for 3 people.

Because it's never their own fault nowadays.

To quote Bender from Futurama It's everyone else's fault but mine!

Yes, it is our fault, for being idiotic enough to travel by train. We'll make you all happy by going by coach in future. There is nothing about trains per se which makes it mandatory to print so many tickets - SNCF, DB, RENFE, Eurostar - they can all manage without this.

 

[Flamingo]

I have to agree. The only reason for having a separate ticket must be to trap the unwary. The ticket says 'valid only with reservation(s)', but an inexperienced traveller may not realise that this actually means a separate ticket (in what other walk of life do you have to carry around so many bits of card - 4 per person for a return journey on advances - for a single transaction, the loss of any one of which will cause huge problems?), but that there will be some other way to identify that he is on the correct train. It would not surprise me at all to learn that TOCs actually budget for a proportion of their revenue to come from this lucrative stream. The fact that we understand the system does NOT make it either (a) easy to understand, (b) logical, or (c) unimprovable.

If you both think this is done by TOC's to increase their revenue, then you both need to start wearing tin-foil hats

 

[4SRKT]

The system is that the ticket is issued with a reservation slip and both parts are required.

It is not difficult, hundreds of people manage it every day on my trains alone. They cover every age group, sex, class, ethnic group and I presume educational level.

If anybody wants to avoid the "stress" of having to deal with this, then buy flexible tickets, and there won't be any compulsory reservation to worry about.

We know what the system is thank you, and yes, it isn't difficult, but as I suggested before, for a first time or inexperienced user it can be confusing. Nor does a straightforward telling of what the system is address whether a better system could be made. The only possible reason for having 2 coupons is to trap the unwary, which is cynical beyond belief.

 

[exile]

If you both think this is done by TOC's to increase their revenue, then you both need to start wearing tin-foil hats

In that case it must be an inability to design a usable ticketing system, despite the fact that other transport systems are capable of doing so.

 

[Bungle73]

Nonsense. There is plenty of empty space on the ticket. Abbreviate the station names by a couple of characters or something if you must, but the space is there for a redesign without changing the stock.

If you want the ticket to be easy to read there isn't space to print more info. As has been pointed out changing the system would be hugely expensive, I'd rather the money was spent on running trains tbh.

 

[4SRKT]

If you both think this is done by TOC's to increase their revenue, then you both need to start wearing tin-foil hats

Why? I don't mean by the footsoldiers, I mean at a strategic level. TOCs are like all businesses utterly amoral and I doubt very much there isn't a single one that deals in advance tickets that doesn't have a line in its P&L that covers this stream. I'm sure it didn't start out like this, but now it's there, why on Earth would they give it up? Thinking that this isn't the case is just plain naive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you want the ticket to be easy to read there isn't space to print more info. As has been pointed out changing the system would be hugely expensive, I'd rather the money was spent on running trains tbh.

Well, I wouldn't. The system is flawed and needs sorting out. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on this one.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Goodness me. If someone can't cope with two small slips of paper which they need to do nothing more with than show a few people, and put through a machine a few times, how do they manage to sort their finances, tax, and perhaps a moderately complicated job?

 

[exile]

I agree the system makes things difficult for passengers, but there isn't room on the ticket for reservations, especially for a longer journey.

There is room - just replace the wording ONLY VALID WITH A RESERVATION with - the reservation.

 

[SS4]

That makes sense up to the point of one ticket per person - but not 14 for 3 people.

It remains simple, nice and modular. 14 for three people is definitely excessive though.

Yes, it is our fault, for being idiotic enough to travel by train. We'll make you all happy by going by coach in future. There is nothing about trains per se which makes it mandatory to print so many tickets - SNCF, DB, RENFE, Eurostar - they can all manage without this.

Way to quote out of context. That quote is related to the OP calling someone a jobsworth when they're fulfilling their contract.

 

[Flamingo]

Goodness me. If someone can't cope with two small slips of paper which they need to do nothing more with than show a few people, and put through a machine a few times, how do they manage to sort their finances, tax, and perhaps a moderately complicated job?

But to understand railway tickets you have to be "sphesul", apparently :roll:

 

[yorkie]

There is room - just replace the wording ONLY VALID WITH A RESERVATION with - the reservation.

What about a journey from, say, Penzance to Grimsby with a change at Plymouth, London and Doncaster? (routed +AP Londn Reading)

 

[4SRKT]

Goodness me. If someone can't cope with two small slips of paper which they need to do nothing more with than show a few people, and put through a machine a few times, how do they manage to sort their finances, tax, and perhaps a moderately complicated job?

It's not about being unable to cope, it's about making an honest mistake. Many people can't sort their finances, taxes or hold down jobs AFAICS anyway.

 

[SS4]

Goodness me. If someone can't cope with two small slips of paper which they need to do nothing more with than show a few people, and put through a machine a few times, how do they manage to sort their finances, tax, and perhaps a moderately complicated job?

Agreed. They can cope but they're rather not.

 

[4SRKT]

Way to quote out of context. That quote is related to the OP calling someone a jobsworth when they're fulfilling their contract.

This is very true, but I don't think anyone thinks that's OK behaviour, and the thread seems to have moved on from the OP's 'plight' to the usual discussion about whether the system is perfect or not.