Advance tickets with seperate reservation coupons

[EM2]

Again you are assuming everyone thinks and acts like you. Quite where you've got this idea from is completely beyond me.

Put it this way, I can't think of anyone that I know who would act any differently.

You sound as though you are professionally involved with ticketing, and if so I would expect this to be second nature to you.

Nope. I happen to work in a station and so many customers assume that I am involved with ticketing, but I'm not. I don't even work for a TOC.

I am professionally involved in parcel distribution but don't roll my eyes in condescending disbelief if I meet someone who doesn't know which town is represented by the postcode district KW10. When you do something all the time it's damn near impossible to see how someone who never does it may view it.

But if you filled in a multi-part consignment note for a customer, and they flicked through it and then threw three of the parts away, wouldn't you think that just a little odd? Even if it was the first time they'd used one?

 

[exile]

According to a lot of people in my line of work (IT), anyone who makes a mistake in operating a computer system, even one they're not familiar with, is an idiot. I happen not to take that line (except in extreme cases!) as systems can be made easy to use, or difficult. I know that I, myself, will sometimes make a mistake, despite 30 years in the job. In the case of train tickets, a mistake on the part of the passengers can be extremely expensive - for the passenger. Saying "it's the passenger's fault" doesn't really address the issue.

 

[Flamingo]

And if a client "makes a mistake", do you fix the problem for free, or do you charge them to do so?

It is usually easy to elicit whether it is a genuine mistake, a try on, or downright incompetence / lack of care on the part of the passenger. If it is a genuine mistake, then I will try to rectify it. If it is a try-on or a lack of care on their part, then I will be less sympathetic. And the bottom line is, that with ticketing irregularities, the onus of proof is on the passenger, as they are absolute offences, as I understand.

After all, if they don't get told, how will they learn.

 

[embers25]

The airline style tickets were trialled by fGW and so I was lumbered with them as I was living in Bath at the time and I'm sure Flamingo got very familiar with them!
Issues were as follows:

They don't fit in railcard holders
They don't work in London Underground ticket barriers and so were a huge pain
They printed on them the suggested trains for your trip (even with flexible fares) and so whenever you chose to travel on a different train guards unfamiliar with them refused them for travel
For most trips they use more paper so are bad environmentally

Main plus points would be:

Oneticket could display all reservations
The suggested trains option allowed full journey plans to be displayed on your ticket helping with some routing arguments and potentially eliminating issues such as that Bradford to Nottingham EC+Connections discussed elsewhere.

I know they are used in most European countries, by Amtrak and by airlines but I prefer out tiny tickets. Although regularly watching people fish through mountains of tickets trying to find the right one for a guard highlights that confusion certainly does exist.

To address the actions of the initial poster - throwing away all the tickets that didn't work in the barrier I wonder if, for example, when building flat pack furniture does he/she follow the instructions or randomly try to fit pieces together and throw them out when they don't fit first try as clearly they won't be needed later!

 

[exile]

Well, I'd agree the OP didn't act wisely, shall we say, and had no reason to call the guard a jobsworth - I do share his frustration with having to carry a thick wad of tickets around for the length of a journey, and then have to pick one of them out to feed through a barrier.

 

[DelayRepay]

Flamingo, how often in your experience do people throw away part of the ticket that they need?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Flamingo, how often in your experience do people throw away part of the ticket that they need?

In my experience of the hundreds of tickets I see every day, very very rarely. Usually it occurs when they have something to hide i.e. They "loose" the reservation when they are on the wrong train, or "loose" the ticket when they haven't got a railcard. 99% of the time everybody has all the required coupons. And, to bd honest, if they are confused, I would rather they just gave me the whole bundle of coupons and let me sort them out.

Referring to the problem of people unfamiliar with rail ticketing. I am unfamiliar with airline ticketing, paperwork or check in processes as I haven't been on a plane in nearly 20 years and at that point my parents sorted it all out. If I decided to catch a plane and I was unsure which reference number, voucher, email or print out I required I would take the whole lot, and not throw anything away, until I had completed the journey. Once I had done a few journeys I may be more familiar with the systems.

 

[Edgemaster]

Some designers have caught wind of this problem (unsurprisingly), and have had some fun in producing alternative design mock-ups.
http://www.swisscheeseandbullets.com/journal/train-in-vain.html

 

[hairyhandedfool]

None of those designs would work, for many reasons, for the majority of tickets, although they might be acceptable for advance tickets where few legs of the journey are required and were the passenger has good eye sight (also the orange bands are the wrong width).

I'm not sure I believe the bloggers story either.

 

[Edgemaster]

Oh indeed, but it is an interesting concept.
There's certainly limitations to what can be placed onto the ticket both in terms of information (platform numbers, for example) and due to physical limitations (printers) with the existing ticketing systems.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think it is just the concept of what you can put on the ticket, but what should be put on the ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some designers have caught wind of this problem (unsurprisingly), and have had some fun in producing alternative design mock-ups.
http://www.swisscheeseandbullets.com/journal/train-in-vain.html

Those designs have already been discussed at some length on here. They're totally unworkable, and raises the passenger's expectations of what a ticket actually should be unnecessarily.

I've yet to see a better solution, other than increasing the physical size of tickets.

 

[DarloRich]

I think, from my point of view, it would be better if, when you booked your ticket you got a warning telling you in big, clear, unmistakeable letters, that you HAD to have all of the tickets mentioned below (as an example)

1) Ticket Darlington - Kings Cross on 14:27 on 30/08/11
2) Reservation coupon for seat 17A in Carriage B

Followed by a warning that if you don’t you will be required to buy a new ticket.

Also I would like to see it clear whether you are getting a ticket from the machine or an E-ticket ( I have been caught out by this)

As an aside the amount of people who read 17a as seat 17 in coach A needs to be seen to be believed. If people often get this wrong then the system needs to be clearer. I have given up trying to help as I am often told, basically, to do one!

 

[exile]

In my experience of the hundreds of tickets I see every day, very very rarely. Usually it occurs when they have something to hide i.e. They "loose" the reservation when they are on the wrong train, or "loose" the ticket when they haven't got a railcard. 99% of the time everybody has all the required coupons. And, to bd honest, if they are confused, I would rather they just gave me the whole bundle of coupons and let me sort them out.

Referring to the problem of people unfamiliar with rail ticketing. I am unfamiliar with airline ticketing, paperwork or check in processes as I haven't been on a plane in nearly 20 years and at that point my parents sorted it all out. If I decided to catch a plane and I was unsure which reference number, voucher, email or print out I required I would take the whole lot, and not throw anything away, until I had completed the journey. Once I had done a few journeys I may be more familiar with the systems.

However, there's a whole set of TV series devoted to passengers who do get it wrong, eg forgetting passports, bringing too much luggage, getting plastered before the flight, arguing with the security staff, demanding the airline books a taxi to take them to Paris, and so on. Maybe a similar series is needed for railways!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I didn't think that "MANDATORY SEAT RESERVATION", "ONLY VALID WITH TICKET 12345" and ONLY VALID WITH SEAT RESERVATION" are unclear, perhaps that is just me though.

I tell passengers to keep the tickets with the reservations, but I don't know what is mentioned online or over the phone, or even at other offices. That said, the attention the passengers tend to take when I tell them, in most cases, is rather less than it should be and is often accompanied by motions and speech that implies they really don't care.

 

[exile]

Those designs have already been discussed at some length on here. They're totally unworkable, and raises the passenger's expectations of what a ticket actually should be unnecessarily.

I've yet to see a better solution, other than increasing the physical size of tickets.

At least someone acknowledges there's a problem to be solved! That is, printing a reservation separately from the ticket, and then insisting that the said 2 pieces of card have to be kept together. You can't even staple the things together as that's defacing the ticket!

I suppose I'm just being Victor Meldrew but the number of cards of various types - credit, debit, discount, store, work, library, season ticket, etc, etc, I have to keep track of now is unbelievable, and having to stuff a dozen or more tickets into my wallet is the last straw.

 

[Greenback]

I certainly think that the current system is not ideal, but I can;t think of any pactical ways to improve on it.

I like the credit card size tickets as they fit into my shirt pocket and wallet. Airline style tickets only fit into long pockets, such as on my jacket, which is a bit of pain if it's too warm to wear one.

Credit card sized tickets are too small to contain all of the information that is required for some journeys. Therefore, there is little option but to issue seperate reservation coupons. Where a ticket is only valid on a specific train and (theoretically at least) in a specific seats, then the reservation coupon must be produced along with the ticket.

I have seen staff in ticket offices explain at great length what each piece of card is and whether it is needed for travel. TVM's, in my experience, tell you how many tickets are being printed, and advise you to ensure you have picked them all up. The ones I have used have a plastic drawer lid to ensure that they do not fall out, and the machine advises to wait until the printing process is complete before you take them out of the drawer. Each ticket also says '1 of 6' or whatever, and are clearly marked as 'Only valid with xxxx'.

To be honest, I don't think any more can be done. I think it's not so much a lack of capability as a lack of taking the time to look at what has been received and to ask for help if anything is unclear.

 

[dodgydave]

Fortunately East Coast seem to agree with me that the current ticketing system is tedious and there are far to many tickets to lumber passengers with! I was refunded £43.70 and was promised a money off voucher through the post with my apology! Although his mistake is rectified now so it doesn't really matter, how much trouble would it have been to simply call the office to find out whether I was entitled to travel on that train? Seems a little petty to me...

 

[tony_mac]

That's good news - but don't do it again or they may not be so understanding!

While few people throw away part of the ticket there are many who don't know that they need to show / keep all of them. It obviously causes a lot of confusion

As has been said, you need the reservation coupon to prove that you are on the correct train and that you haven't given it to somebody else to use (that shouldn't really be possible, but how many guards check that the numbers match?).

If they had to call to check every passenger's reservation then they wouldn't have time to do anything else - it is much easier to just expect passengers to carry it with them.

 

[blacknight]

Fortunately East Coast seem to agree with me that the current ticketing system is tedious and there are far to many tickets to lumber passengers with! I was refunded £43.70 and was promised a money off voucher through the post with my apology! Although his mistake is rectified now so it doesn't really matter, how much trouble would it have been to simply call the office to find out whether I was entitled to travel on that train? Seems a little petty to me...

Please explain what his mistake was?
This what is wrong with when Customer Relations get involved by backing down & giving you the refund it as given you the opinion that you were wronly charged.
If they had just explained that it was your error in disgarding reservation that left you being charged £43.70, you might now be of the opinion that I wont do that again in a hurry.
what is the point of rules if company's are not prepared to take a hardline & enforce them

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Although his mistake is rectified now so it doesn't really matter....

How is....

....I mashed them in one by one until one let me through and threw away the others as they appeared to be card receipts and trainline booking costs and the reservations, which I presumed I didn't need, as I didn't care about allocated seating....

....the fault of....

....an absolute jobsworth ticket inspector....

....when your....

....tickets were not valid as they didn't have reservations....

????

Customer relations departments (particularly so at EC it seems) are very good at refunding money so that you might consider travelling with them again. I find this undermines the authority of the guards who are only doing their job and should not have to threaten anything (imo they shouldn't at all, it should be facts and statements of intent) or be faced with abuse and name calling before, during or after the event.

....how much trouble would it have been to simply call the office to find out whether I was entitled to travel on that train? Seems a little petty to me....

How much trouble would it have been for you to find out which documents you needed to keep and which you didn't?

How much trouble would it have been for you to keep hold of the documents which, in most cases, are given to you for a reason?

How much trouble would it have been for you to take a few moments to actually look at and read what you had been given?

You admitted you had them delivered which means, unless they arrived that morning, you had ample chance to check them out before approaching the barrier. Perhaps it is easier to blame someone else for your mistake?

 

[DarloRich]

Please explain what his mistake was?
This what is wrong with when Customer Relations get involved by backing down & giving you the refund it as given you the opinion that you were wronly charged.
If they had just explained that it was your error in disgarding reservation that left you being charged £43.70, you might now be of the opinion that I wont do that again in a hurry.
what is the point of rules if company's are not prepared to take a hardline & enforce them

becuase it costs them nothing just to give in and get a bit of free positive pr rather than fight it out. Good experiance = more EC bookings

 

[yorkie]

However, there's a whole set of TV series devoted to passengers who do get it wrong...... Maybe a similar series is needed for railways!

Watchdog have done this. They will side with the customer even if the TOC is technically in the right if the charge is deemed excessive, thus causing bad publicity for the TOC. EMT and Virgin got some bad publicity over this several months ago (there is a thread about it which may be found by doing a Search).

 

[blacknight]

At least someone acknowledges there's a problem to be solved! That is, printing a reservation separately from the ticket, and then insisting that the said 2 pieces of card have to be kept together. You can't even staple the things together as that's defacing the ticket!.

Stapling Ticket & Reservation back to back is not defacing ticket providing you dont staple through printed information destroying date time of service.
Just remember that if stapled together it will not go through an automated ticket gate.

 

[jon0844]

But it says in great big letters at the top of the ticket "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATION(S)".

I know what it means, you know what it means... but you could read that and think it means the ticket is only valid with a reservation - which you would have made. It doesn't tell you literally that you must have the reservation ticket with you (or to hand).

I do think it's mad to have so many tickets and wonder if there isn't a way to either print on the reverse or somewhere else on the same ticket. At some point, we should be updating all ticketing facilities to allow for totally blank cards to be used as ticket stock and for the printer to print out everything - whether that's in the traditional layout or a more advanced layout.

You could even consider putting a QR code on the corner somewhere to speed up the reading/verification of a booking if necessary.

Not that it would happen overnight, but the industry should consider doing this and then set a deadline at some point in the future. It can't be that hard (maybe the barcode bit) given most mechanical printers will need to be replaced soon anyway, and the thermal ones already can print anything you like.

Until that happens, take the advice; carry everything you have with you until you've finished your journey and are now safely back in your home!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have to agree. The only reason for having a separate ticket must be to trap the unwary.

To be fair, it's more likely down to the fact that the technology in ticketing is VERY old and VERY out of date. It works, but is in need of a radical overhaul to catch up.

I guess we were quite ahead of the game when we got the new ticketing, so it stands to reason it would go out of date quicker. The system works, even if it is fiddly (I also hate having so many tickets squashed into my ticket wallet) but that doesn't mean we can't express the opinion that it would be nice to update it.

Smart ticketing with NFC is probably the way ahead for a lot of things, but I can see paper tickets always existing. In London, it's easy to ditch paper as many people (including tourists) can happily use an Oyster on prepay or get a Travelcard, but I think paper will still have to stick around for a long time yet eslewhere.

It would help staff a great deal if the tickets had more information and they don't need to sort them all out when handed a clump of tickets from a confused family!

 

[AlterEgo]

It really is very difficult balancing act when someone falls foul of ticketing regulations, especially when it's their own fault (I'm talking lost or destroyed tickets, or missed services).

There is always the wish to keep the customer happy, in the hope of fostering goodwill and repeat journeys, and given that a franchise commitment of nearly every TOC is to encourage modal shift. However, this has to be balanced with the right of staff on the ground not to be undermined. I would be very interested to see where in their reply East Coast "admitted" it was the guard's fault. I am sure they are professional enough to know were fault lay in this instance! (I am still glad the OP got his money back though)

A good complaint handler will, in these cases, always look at the tone of the original complaint. Complaints which either slate staff, are hateful, attempt to shift responsibility, are militant, accuse TOCs of deliberate fraud or other crimes, or are otherwise totally unreasonable or dishonest are unlikely to be looked upon favourably in cases where the TOC is technically (which means actually) correct. It's important not to get to a stage where staff on the ground feel any decision they make in good faith can be overturned by someone in an office a hundred miles away at a later date.

The best kinds of complaints are those which are respectful but firm - even better if the complaint has identified areas which could be improved or altered to aid the public and makes intelligent suggestions. Good TOCs will respond favourably to those who feel aggrieved but who welcome productive dialogue.

I'm always available by PM and will gladly help if you are writing to a TOC (except my own) about poor service, by proofreading a letter.

 

[blacknight]

I know what it means, you know what it means... but you could read that and think it means the ticket is only valid with a reservation - which you would have made. It doesn't tell you literally that you must have the reservation ticket with you (or to hand).

I do think it's mad to have so many tickets and wonder if there isn't a way to either print on the reverse or somewhere else on the same ticket. At some point, we should be updating all ticketing facilities to allow for totally blank cards to be used as ticket stock and for the printer to print out everything - whether that's in the traditional layout or a more advanced layout.

To be fair, it's more likely down to the fact that the technology in ticketing is VERY old and VERY out of date. It works, but is in need of a radical overhaul to catch up.

I guess we were quite ahead of the game when we got the new ticketing, so it stands to reason it would go out of date quicker. The system works, even if it is fiddly (I also hate having so many tickets squashed into my ticket wallet) but that doesn't mean we can't express the opinion that it would be nice to update it.


It would help staff a great deal if the tickets had more information and they don't need to sort them all out when handed a clump of tickets from a confused family!

East Coast now offer a print at home version for their AP Tickets produces A4size ticket complete with bar code for operating automated ticket gates.
Few years back rail industry tried "Airline Style" ticket that had all information on one large ticket but some passengers complained it was to big for the wallet, given popularity of AP tickets maybe it should be brought back as an option.

 

[Greenback]

A good post AlterEgo. I would be surprised if the reply stated that the guard was in the wrong. This is a classic example of a gesture of goodwill, where the company has not made an error but wishes to encourage the complainant to use their services in the future.

 

[Butts]

At least they have cut the tickets down a little bit.

Last time I got tickets for two people (advanced) from the TVM the reservations were both on one ticket with two seperate travel tickets.

Hang on a sec.....why don't they just issue one travel ticket instead of two as it has space for number of people ?

 

[Greenback]

As stated earlier, by Flamingo I think, it's not then possible for the people to split up. Mrs G and I normally travel together, but soemtimes she might want to go back home while I stay in the pub!