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Revised NRCoC
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bb21
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There was an example where the Penzance - Wick SOS had to be valid on the third day if you start out late from Penzance on Day 1, as it might not be possible to complete the journey by the end of Day 2.
This might be where the three-day confusion comes from?
The most worring aspect is that there are apparently 3 new companies - that are not actually companies!
Anyone fancy an FOI request to the DfT, or know an MP who is sympathetic to rail passengers, or fancy a letter to the ORR?
The NRCoC defines “Train Company” as "a company operating passenger railway services which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C"
Yet Appendix C is now going to contain phantom companies, that are not actually companies, and do NOT hold a Passenger License granted by the ORR.
* Has DfT approved these changes? if so, why?
* Does ORR believe these changes are legal? If so, why does Appendix A state that they should have a license, when Appendix C is going to list so-called companies that do not have a license?
We can't just do nothing about this. This requires a robust response.
Anyone fancy an FOI request to the DfT, or know an MP who is sympathetic to rail passengers, or fancy a letter to the ORR?
The NRCoC defines “Train Company” as "a company operating passenger railway services which is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these companies can be found in Appendix C"
Yet Appendix C is now going to contain phantom companies, that are not actually companies, and do NOT hold a Passenger License granted by the ORR.
* Has DfT approved these changes? if so, why?
* Does ORR believe these changes are legal? If so, why does Appendix A state that they should have a license, when Appendix C is going to list so-called companies that do not have a license?
We can't just do nothing about this. This requires a robust response.
First class
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FYI in relation to Yorkie:
Guess the Gatwick Express got a bit more confusing!!
Guess the Gatwick Express got a bit more confusing!!
Indeed. Perhaps people can ask if Southern Railway is a company, if so then Southern tickets are valid, or if Gatwick Express and Southern are separate companies, in which case Gatwick Express are operating without a passenger license (see Appendix A)!
Either way, they've messed up - which is hardly surprising.
Anyone got a good MP?
Seems perfectly clear to me...Gatwick Express, like East Coast, First Great Western, Heathrow Connect, etc is a trading name. The passenger licence, on the other hand, is held by the franchisee in their registered name.
A similar situation occurred when Virgin ran CrossCountry, with Advance tickets routed West Coast Only or CrossCountry Only, and not valid on the other franchise.
Cheers,
Barry
Are you saying Gatwick Express is a Train Operating Company?
But they were 2 franchises, that's 2 separate companies, using a common brand name. Surely that's the opposite of 1 franchise, that's 1 company, using 2 brand names?!
Anyway they can use as many brand names as they want; it's not relevant. Condition 10 is quite clear that restrictions apply to the company, and Appendix A is quite clear that a company has to have a passenger license with the ORR. Southern and NXEA do have such licenses, as they are companies. Gatwick Express and Stansted Express do not have licenses as they are merely brand names and not companies.
So it is quite clear; Southern Only tickets are valid on Gatwick Express, and NXEA Only tickets are valid on Stansted Express. (And a Brighton to Cambridge +Southern & NXEA is valid on Gatwick Express, Stansted Express and even on FCC for the cross-London section!)
Solent&Wessex
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Looking at the new document I cannot see where it says that ticket validity (re when you can use it up until) has changed at all. I am reading it on a mobile though.
First class
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You should have the staff briefing document from Katie if she's still in the same role.
If not, see this attachment.
So if I read that staff brief correctly we've gone back to the old overnight break of journey rules. Currently on non-anytime or day tickets you can break your journey overnight as long as you recommence before 1200 the next day. That means I could travel one station at 9am then break my journey and continue the next day despite the fact I could have got there that same first day. Now we are back to the old rule whereby you can only break overnight if you cannot complete your journey in time and it doesn't specifically state if you have to get as far as you can that first day but I guess that's implicit. Thats a massive retrograde step. Also how do the sleepers and connections following sleeper journeys work now then as they travel after 0429 and journeys must now be complete by 0429?
Also I wonder if the change to overnight validities they talk of will ban the use of the Night Riviera from Exeter to London with off peak tickets? Also when using that train on a Tuesday for example an off peak ticket bought with Tuesday's date is invalid but the ticket for the previous day is now also invalid as I wouldn't have technically started the journey the previous day and also its beyond 0429 when it arrives? Any experts able to help?
Also I wonder if the change to overnight validities they talk of will ban the use of the Night Riviera from Exeter to London with off peak tickets? Also when using that train on a Tuesday for example an off peak ticket bought with Tuesday's date is invalid but the ticket for the previous day is now also invalid as I wouldn't have technically started the journey the previous day and also its beyond 0429 when it arrives? Any experts able to help?
First class
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I suspect the Routeing Guide will just be filled with a load of "easements" for the sleeper. The only other way is to make everyone buy SOS/SOR where you have at least 2 days to complete a journey.
No. I'm saying they're a brand, in the same way that Stansted Express is a brand, but part of the NXEA franchise.
The key difference between the two being that GatEx previously came under the auspices of InterCity®, and was ticketed separately from the Network Southeast services, whereas StanEx was always part of NSE.
The other recent(ish) similar scenario being the merging of the West Anglia side of WAGN with Anglia and Great Eastern to form...NXEA. Prior to that, if memory serves, there were separate fares for London - Ipswich (amongst others) depending on whether you used Anglia or Great Eastern, and ISTR Network Cards being valid to Ipswich on GE.
Being pedantic, NXEA don't have a licence...that's held by London Eastern Railway Ltd, trading as NXEA.
Looking at the Franchise Agreement on the DfT website, it certainly appears that they want GatEx to be treated separately from the rest of Southern, and incidentally defines any train running non-stop from Victoria to Gatwick as a Gatwick Express service...But what the NRCoC say and what the DfT want them to mean aren't necessarily the same thing, which isn't exactly unusual in the industry.
Cheers,
Barry
I too am disappointed to note that the overnight BoJ rules for Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles or the outward portion of Off Peak/Super Off Peak Returns appear to have removed the option for a passenger to break their journey if they wish.
These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.
These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.
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Paul Kelly
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That is a really huge backward step about overnight Break of Journey if true. I wonder what Barry Doe has to say about it. When we heard the first rumours about these changes it sounded mildly positive, but now having seen the details it sounds to me like a huge big badly thought-through mess.
hairyhandedfool
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By that Logic Virgin Trains do not have a licence and so 'rte Virgin Trains Only' tickets are useless because the company is West Coast Trains Limited!
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
The routeing restriction needs to be shown on the ticket; that is all. "SOUTHERN ONLY" also includes Gatwick Express as it is part of Southern. They could change the route to something STHN NOT GTW EXP (or NXEA NOT SSD EXP) but that gets very hard to read. I suspect they are trying the usual thing of doing everything possible to avoid dealing with the fares database and its limitations and instead working around it using other means, such as listing these fake TOCs.
Actually that's what I'm afriad of as without a routeing guide easement update(which there is no evidence is coming) that means the only tickets apart from advances valid on sleepers will be SOS and SOR which is a MASSIVE cost increase. I am guessing this is what they mean by small changes to overnight restrictions! This will also affect the first train in the morning from Swansea (and its connection from Fishguard). Also early morning Three Bridges trains would now become peak.
So it would appear that not only can you not have voluntary overnight break of journey but also you sleepers become peak services! That is not a small change and is definitely retrograde. The change from 0229 to 0429 definitely seems to hurt rather than help (theres a surprise!). This change seems a great way for TOC's to reduce validity and raise fares by stealth both at the same time and at a time of year when fare rises/restriction changes are not usually allowed.
Add to that NXEA's little Stansted trick and all in all these changes don't seem to benefit passengers at all as the extra day validity on open singles is still less than it was before the last change.
Intermodal
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I have sent a FoI request to the DfT requesting to know if these new TOCs listed are infact seperate train operating companies to their "counterparts" and also asking for details of any correspondence or consultation that was carried out regarding this change to the NRCoC.
By what logic? Virgin Trains = West Coast Trains Limited. They are a company. Southern = Southern Railway Limited and are also a company.
But Gatwick Express isn't a company, any more than Caledonian Sleeper is. They're just names given to particular services, nothing more than that.
Do you think Gatwick Express is a TOC? (If not, we're not in disagreement!)
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It looks pretty clear to me that they have separated Gatwick Express and Southern in that appendix purely to solve this crisis for you. The intention must be to separate them out for fares purposes. No more travelling on Southern tickets for fun, I fear!! 
It looks pretty clear to me that they have separated Gatwick Express and Southern in that appendix purely to solve this crisis for you. No more travelling on Southern tickets for fun, I fear!!
How can they do that arbitrarily? Either it is a franchise, and a TOC, or it isn't!
They have not been separated. They are still one company. Check with companies house if you do not believe me. Check the franchise agreement.It looks pretty clear to me that they have separated Gatwick Express and Southern in that appendix purely to solve this crisis for you. The intention must be to separate them out for fares purposes. No more travelling on Southern tickets for fun, I fear!!
All that they've done is list the same company twice, a Southern Railway Ltd is the company. It's one company, not two.
Do you think that the trains that depart Victoria at peak times change company at Gatwick Airport?
In 2008 the Gatwick Express was abolished as a TOC and handed over to Southern, proof of this is here, and this is still the case. It would cost the DfT £millions to split them back into 2 companies.
hairyhandedfool
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In order for 'rte Virgin Trains Only' tickets to be valid on any services, the routeing must refer to the trading name because the operating license belongs to West Coast trains Limited. If Gatwick Express services are run under the trading name of Gatwick Express, they are not Southern services. The operating license would still belong to Southern Railway Limited though.
Do you think a 'rte FGW Only' ticket is valid on Heathrow Connect?
Possibly.
Clearly the company holding the licence in each case is "West Coast Trains Limited", "Southern Railway Limited", "First Greater Western Limited" etc. These are not the names printed on the tickets though. Therefore there is ambiguity as to what is intended. In cases where there is only one brand to each company then it is clear, but in an increasing number of instances it is unclear.
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Hey, fair enough. I just think that the whole Gatwick thing is a bit of a lost cause without some philanthropist decides to fight it in court. In the mean time I will continue, like thousands of others, to not use Gatwick Express - and not worry too much about it. Alas.
Solent&Wessex
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I'm not entirely sure this is the case. The wording in the briefing document is ambiguous.
It says "Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single;
(also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns) One day. Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days."
Which, as you say indicates that an off-peak single ticket cannot be used on the sleeper.
But then, in the examples, it says: "A customer is travelling midweek from Matlock to London using a Super Off-Peak Return, They leave Matlock at 2137, arriving in Derby at 2211.
- The last train to London has already left, so the customer may break the journey overnight and continue the following day. The first train they may use to London St Pancras the following day leaves at 1001, in line with the usual restriction from Matlock.".
It does not indicates whether it is the outward or return journey, but if it is the outward journey, then this does not comply with the restriction they have introduced earlier - it is based on the current restriction about restarting before 1200 and complying with any relevant time restriction.
The FGW website still allows you to buy Off-Peak / Super Off Peak singles for overnight travel on the sleeper well into October and November.
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As an aside, is there no requirement for the NRCoC to be available in Welsh?
I am more than disappointed. This is a huge detriment to passengers who wish to break their journey.
Yes, most journeys can be completed in a day, but many people may not wish to complete (or, or some cases, not be physically capable of completing) a journey of many hours in one day. It seems under the new rules they will need two tickets.
It surprises me that we are being encouraged to contact MPs about the minutiae of company trading names, whilst an apparently major reduction in ticket validity is being ignored.
You are welcome - and encouraged - to contact your MP about all of these issues and anything you wish! I didn't realise the scale of the problem regarding the loss of BOJ if customers "wish" to break their journey when I posted earlier. I am quite outraged. I would suggest as many people as possible raise the general matter of the NRCoC changing, including both issues, with their MPs, to the DfT as an FOI request, Passenger Focus, and any other avenue you see fit!
Is overnight break of journey really that common? It's not something I have ever considered, even though I know I could do it.
The reaction to this is symptomatic of the issues surrounding rail ticketing in general. Many complain that it's too complex yet if anything is done to try to simplify or restrict it others protest loudly that their rights are being infringed.
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