Eureka moment - 319 cascades.

[pemma]

For a while now we've know the first batch of 319s won't be fully refurbished and ready to enter passenger service in the North West in May 2014, as per the original plan.

People have suggested a new EMU order is the solution but then the question is where do the rest of the 319s go with people not liking the idea of them being used on Valley Lines and North TPE is a non-starter.

However, what about:

* New EMUs ordered for both North West and Thames Valley newly electrified lines.
* When Thameslink units enter service, 319s sent for a full refurb.
* All 86 x 319s go to LM fully refurbished. The 75x 350s that LM will have then are released to be fully refurbished to be suitable for long journeys.
* The fully refurbished 75 x 350s join the 10 x 350s running Manchester-Scotland to take over the North TPE, including the two additional proposed semi-fasts between Manchester and Leeds and the proposed Liverpool-Scotland services.

?

 

[Nym]

I like, I like...

350s would only need the seating changing and a mini buffet fitting then the're quite suited for TPE...

 

[pemma]

The 350/2s would need tables fitting as well.

 

[Nym]

OK, seating and tables changing...

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Can see the people who use LM's 350's currently potentially having a problem with that lol, though I am quite partial to the 319's myself obviously! Be interesting as part of the overhaul process whether a new traction package would be a good idea especially if they are going to go over to AC only lines, more energy efficiency and all that?

Still, long live the 319 wherever they end up!!!

 

[anthony263]

The idea of the thames valley getting brand new emu's instead of the class 319's is being considered now.

This would allow Northern to get more class 319's with some which will being going to FGW will work services around Bristol & Cardiff (Swansea perhaps if the wires are extended there and a Swansea - Bristol TM service is run.)

There is even a suggetsion of the class 315's being cascaded to work the Cardiff valley lines if the WG decide not to order new stock (Personally I hope they will, I dont like the class 315's and they will be quite old by the time they are released by Crossrail.)

Also it seems once the Glasgow - Edinburgh routes are electrified by 2015/2016 this will enable scorail to release a lot of the 59 class 170's they have. This could be good for operators such as ATW,FGW & Northern.

All of this is listed on page 8 in the latest issue of RAIL.

 

[DarloRich]

Can see the people who use LM's 350's currently potentially having a problem with that lol, though I am quite partial to the 319's myself obviously! Be interesting as part of the overhaul process whether a new traction package would be a good idea especially if they are going to go over to AC only lines, more energy efficiency and all that?

Still, long live the 319 wherever they end up!!!

yes because LM will be very pleased to be rid of thier 350's and have them replaced with a much older and inferior product - us passengers might be a tad cheesed off to!

 

[150222]

yes because LM will be very pleased to be rid of thier 350's and have them replaced with a much older and inferior product - us passengers might be a tad cheesed off to!

Not forgetting about gangway connectors.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

@DarloRich To be fair didn't I suggest that LM's passengers would not appreciate it... biased to the 319's since I work them most days, but will be looking forward to appreciating some Siemens stock in the next few years!

 

[HH]

Depends what you want, but Siemens stock is built like a tank and as reliable as a volkswagen.

 

[Aictos]

On one hand it would be nice to give Northern the majority of the 319s with a smaller fleet going to Great Western however it might be more benefical if Northern placed a order for 350/1s, 350/2s or 380s on top of the discussed London Midland Desiro order as it would be more value for money, the 319s could then be used on the Thames Valley services and the North Downs services keeping them as dual voltage EMUs providing the North Downs infill electrification and the Thames Valley is wired up/3rd rail extended which would then see a number of Networkers move to Bristol.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By value for money I am referring to the fact that if both Northern and TPE had Desiro EMUs then not only would the larger order be cheaper in the long run rather then multiple small orders, the EMUs could also be serviced and maintained at a joint depot further decreasing running costs.

 

[anthony263]

Or perhaps more class 377's could be ordered for Northern on top of the order Southern are planning to Place.

I also think if they do re-open and electrify the route between Oxford & Bletchely then perhaps FGW could use the 319's to work a stopping service between Reading & Milton Keynes and even perhaps a through electric service to/from Swindon & Bristol.

The additional 319's could allow for a peak hour through service between Bassingstoke & London Paddington, which has the benefit of providing some relief to the overcrowding between Bassingstoke & London Waterloo.

Some of thw class 319's can be cascaded to work electric services between Bristol & Cardiff/Swansea.

I do however think that perhaps some additional class 350's should be ordered on top of the 18 already ordered. These additional class 350's will be for the Manchester Airport - scotland route to help with future increases in passenger numbers.

 

[tbtc]

Are these the 350s that are being tested at 110mph so that London Midland can squeeze extra paths onto the WCML (since the 100mph 350s take up two paths on the "fast" lines, but two 110mph EMUs may fit okay)?

As has been said above, they'd be getting 100mph EMUs that are around fifteen years older, with no corridor connections... its a no from me, sorry.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are these the 350s that are being tested at 110mph so that London Midland can squeeze extra paths onto the WCML (since the 100mph 350s take up two paths on the "fast" lines, but two 110mph EMUs may fit okay)?

As has been said above, they'd be getting 100mph EMUs that are around fifteen years older, with no corridor connections... its a no from me, sorry.

Agreed. The 350s are being tested at 110mph to allow London Midland to attain additional WCML fast paths, so replacing them with 319s would be counter-productive. Also, LM has been very keen to rid itself of all its' older EMUs up to and including the 321s, so I don't think they'd be happy to be receiving trains older than the 321s in exchange for the loss of their Desiros!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also it seems once the Glasgow - Edinburgh routes are electrified by 2015/2016 this will enable scorail to release a lot of the 59 class 170's they have. This could be good for operators such as ATW,FGW & Northern.

Seriously? hock: I'm unlikely to get the chance to peruse the current edition of RAIL, so are you sure that specific mention is made to Scotrail losing some of its' 170s, or just to some of their DMUs in general? I would have thought it far more likely that the Scottish electrification programme would see either 156s or 158s sent to England.

 

[route:oxford]

Seriously? hock: I'm unlikely to get the chance to peruse the current edition of RAIL, so are you sure that specific mention is made to Scotrail losing some of its' 170s, or just to some of their DMUs in general? I would have thought it far more likely that the Scottish electrification programme would see either 156s or 158s sent to England.

Unless there is the possibility of a new build of stock with suitable doors, or every platform is altered on certain lines, then the 156s will stay where they are.

Perhaps one day Transport Scotland will make a special order from Staedler rail for units with panaromic windows specific for the tourist routes (but obviously also providing an essential transport option for locals).

 

[anthony263]

Agreed. The 350s are being tested at 110mph to allow London Midland to attain additional WCML fast paths, so replacing them with 319s would be counter-productive. Also, LM has been very keen to rid itself of all its' older EMUs up to and including the 321s, so I don't think they'd be happy to be receiving trains older than the 321s in exchange for the loss of their Desiros!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seriously? hock: I'm unlikely to get the chance to peruse the current edition of RAIL, so are you sure that specific mention is made to Scotrail losing some of its' 170s, or just to some of their DMUs in general? I would have thought it far more likely that the Scottish electrification programme would see either 156s or 158s sent to England.

The article said that there may be a possibility of some of the 59 class 170's being available to cascade to other opertors.

 

[tbtc]

Seriously? hock: I'm unlikely to get the chance to peruse the current edition of RAIL, so are you sure that specific mention is made to Scotrail losing some of its' 170s, or just to some of their DMUs in general? I would have thought it far more likely that the Scottish electrification programme would see either 156s or 158s sent to England.

It'll be 158s coming south.

156s are needed because of clearance (etc) on routes like the West Highland, 170s are three coaches, so makes sense to dump the 158s.

About the only line to get a worse deal would be the Far North.

 

[Robinson]

I sincerely hope ScotRail don't lose 170s.

 

[sprinterguy]

Unless there is the possibility of a new build of stock with suitable doors, or every platform is altered on certain lines, then the 156s will stay where they are.

There's still the opportunity for 158s to head south then.

Although I do not know the ins and outs of it, not by a long way, but the only route where I have heard that there would be difficulties with clearing stock other than 156s is the West Highland, and surely not all the platforms along that route would make 158s out of gauge? Though perhaps enough of them to make the cost of the remedial work prohibitive.

There are also other 156 operated routes that would seem much better suited to operation by other rolling stock, where I don't believe that clearances would be an issue: I think the G&SW services to Carlisle would be well suited to 170 operation, and the likes of the Paisley Canal and East Kilbride lines would sit better as part of the Glasgow suburban electric network.

Overall though, I suppose it would be simpler for Scotrail to lose some/all of its' 158s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Does anyone wish Bombardier would stop and let the thameslink under get underway so that it doesn't mess up the plans for EMU cascades?

Although i do enjoy that maybe the thames valley gets a new build with Northwest getting all the 319s.... maybe that would allow something to be done with the 323s? ie consolidation of fleets?

 

[BR Blue]

There`s nothing in RAIL magazine about rolling stock coming to England and Wales from Scotland. The article on page 8 is showing some points from the Scottish IIP:

A proportion of the 59 strong Class 170 fleet will become surplus when transport Scotland completes its Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification project.

This project will need 46 three-car EMUs - the Scottish IIP assumes these will be new, while admitting they could be cascaded from elsewhere in Britain.

Northern did well to get the 5 class 322`s from Scotrail. It`s unlikely that any stock will be released. Their services will run in 4/6 car formations to pick up the odd passenger in the Highlands.

 

[NXEA!]

Personally I'd like to see an order of 20 12-car Thameslink sets tagged onto the existing order for the next franchisee of the Great Northern lines from Kings Cross. IEP is taking over the Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts, which will release a few EMU's, and with Thameslink being extended onto the ECML to Cambridge (and Peterborough?), this will release a good number of EMU's. Say the released EMU's are the 12 317's, and the 13 321's (to NXEA anyone?), you still have the 40 365's at Hornsey, which can be released by the 20 12-car Desiro City's, with the 365's going to the Thames Valley. The 319's can all go to Northern to operate the newly electrified routes, displace the 323's to LM or another TOC, and also allow frequency improvements, and also possibly encourage electrification of other lines.

 

[tbtc]

The planned electrification in Lancashire will free up around thirty DMUs, roughly half TPE and half Northern.

Since the TPE service will be getting 350s (whether operated by TPE/ Northern/ Virgin when the boundaries change), even if you include the Blackpool service in Northern you are looking at no more than twenty EMUs needed to run the additional services (based on current service patterns).

At the moment Northern run seventeen 323s in Lancashire.

So, even if you want to replace all (three coach) 323s with (four coach) 319s, plus add in half a dozen additional EMUs to provide new services (or improve the "reserve") then you are still only talking around half of the eight six 319s.

Even if you give Neville Hill some 319s (to replace the 321/322s) thats only around fifty - I really can't see the need for Northern to get all of the 319s, sorry.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The planned electrification in Lancashire will free up around thirty DMUs, roughly half TPE and half Northern.

Since the TPE service will be getting 350s (whether operated by TPE/ Northern/ Virgin when the boundaries change), even if you include the Blackpool service in Northern you are looking at no more than twenty EMUs needed to run the additional services (based on current service patterns).

At the moment Northern run seventeen 323s in Lancashire.

So, even if you want to replace all (three coach) 323s with (four coach) 319s, plus add in half a dozen additional EMUs to provide new services (or improve the "reserve") then you are still only talking around half of the eight six 319s.

Even if you give Neville Hill some 319s (to replace the 321/322s) thats only around fifty - I really can't see the need for Northern to get all of the 319s, sorry.

Thanks for summing that up.
So in fairness then youd be better just not bothering with neville hill and sending them to lancashire and just leaving it there and giving rest to GW. However... i would after further electrification (valleys and in the north) say order a new build for great western and send the 319s to the bristol and cardiff area and the north. Not sure if sending northerns 323s to LM would achieve much?

 

[tbtc]

Thanks for summing that up.
So in fairness then youd be better just not bothering with neville hill and sending them to lancashire and just leaving it there and giving rest to GW. However... i would after further electrification (valleys and in the north) say order a new build for great western and send the 319s to the bristol and cardiff area and the north. Not sure if sending northerns 323s to LM would achieve much?

I don't think that the GWML will need *that* many 319s, since I've not seen it confirmed that they are doing the branches (and the fast Oxford services will got to IEP). I honestly think there'll be enough to go round (unless we get a lot more electrification agreed, rather than just suggested in RUSs and wish lists).

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't think that the GWML will need *that* many 319s, since I've not seen it confirmed that they are doing the branches (and the fast Oxford services will got to IEP). I honestly think there'll be enough to go round (unless we get a lot more electrification agreed, rather than just suggested in RUSs and wish lists).

well fair enough. Hard to work out when things are so uncertain and things are been shared out between so many different TOCs.

I hope we do electrify more but i dont want to have to need loads of teams electryfying then do nothing and them all be out of a job. But i think to do that and keep it sustainable we need a order of 172s. Shame really.

We shall see.

I can't see why the branches arn't being electrified, leaving islands that would be cheaper to electrfy surely than just leaving the odd DMU half way down the GWML.

 

[anthony263]

well fair enough. Hard to work out when things are so uncertain and things are been shared out between so many different TOCs.

I hope we do electrify more but i dont want to have to need loads of teams electryfying then do nothing and them all be out of a job. But i think to do that and keep it sustainable we need a order of 172s. Shame really.

We shall see.

I can't see why the branches arn't being electrified, leaving islands that would be cheaper to electrfy surely than just leaving the odd DMU half way down the GWML.

I am sure i read somwhere that the management at FGW have said they would pay for the thames valley branches to be wired if they won the next GW franchise.

 

[IanXC]

Even if you give Neville Hill some 319s (to replace the 321/322s) thats only around fifty - I really can't see the need for Northern to get all of the 319s, sorry.

I think you're right given the current electrification plans. However add in North TPE and/or MML electrification and I recon the entire 319 fleet would be perfect for Northern.

I am sure i read somwhere that the management at FGW have said they would pay for the thames valley branches to be wired if they won the next GW franchise.

I think its highly likely that all the bids for the next GW franchise will include this, given the length, DfT current policy and the operational inconvience of having IEP, HST, EMU and DMU fleets in the London area.

 

[Nym]

The planned electrification in Lancashire will free up around thirty DMUs, roughly half TPE and half Northern.

Since the TPE service will be getting 350s (whether operated by TPE/ Northern/ Virgin when the boundaries change), even if you include the Blackpool service in Northern you are looking at no more than twenty EMUs needed to run the additional services (based on current service patterns).

At the moment Northern run seventeen 323s in Lancashire.

So, even if you want to replace all (three coach) 323s with (four coach) 319s, plus add in half a dozen additional EMUs to provide new services (or improve the "reserve") then you are still only talking around half of the eight six 319s.

Even if you give Neville Hill some 319s (to replace the 321/322s) thats only around fifty - I really can't see the need for Northern to get all of the 319s, sorry.

Thats working at current service levels though...

If you increase service levels drastically on the electrified routes I got it up to 45 units required with current electrification.

ie.
Bolton slows over to EMU, extended to Chorley or Horwich.
Wigan via Paitcroft 2tph slow
etc etc. Got me up to 45 units

Add in Lostock electrification, Chinley Electrification and possibly Rochdale / Stalybridge and then you can easilly use all 86 units.

 

[pemma]

OK. A few points:

1. The current London Midland franchise ends in 2015, so any 319/350 cascade is something that'll be written in to the next franchise not the current one.
2. While it's replacing newer stock with older it'll be similar to what happened with the EMT franchise. EMT have done a very good job at refurbishing the 158s and I don't think most passengers would think that the 158s are over 20 years old.
3. Some of the longer LM 350 operated services are effectively open access. ORR have said before that a through Crewe-Euston service is not part of the franchise commitment and may need to be split up in the future if the paths are needed more for other services.
4. At present there is no guarantee that the existing 350s will be allowed to run at 110mph. It's subject to the outcome of tests.