Alliance Rail wish to revive the 'GNER' brand name on the East Coast main line

[The Sleeper]

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=adc4e31e12924420d97adc4bc&id=9a28f4f8bf&e=7f866174fe

APPLICATION BY GNER TO INTRODUCE NEW DIRECT RAIL SERVICES BETWEEN LONDON KING’S CROSS AND SKIPTON, ILKLEY and BRADFORD

Alliance Rail Holdings (Alliance) has recently submitted an application to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) seeking rights to allow GNER to operate a number of new train services between:
​

• London King’s Cross and Skipton – 4 trains per day in each direction
• London King’s Cross and Bradford – 2 trains per day in each direction
• London King’s Cross and Ilkley – 1 train per day in each direction

All services would be routed via the East Coast Main Line and call at Leeds, approaching Leeds from the East. This would also provide Garforth with a frequent daily direct service to London King’s Cross.

Services are planned to operate at two-hourly intervals between London Kings Cross and Leeds, with one service each day in each direction then serving Ilkley, two serving Bradford Forster Square and the other services going on to Skipton.

The ORR is currently undertaking industry consultation on the proposals, which seek to provide these important parts of West Yorkshire with the improved service it needs whilst also providing a limited amount of welcome competition for Leeds passengers.

 

[Oswyntail]

Old news, i think. But, given the number of passengers on the early Ilkley trains who trot dutifully across to the London ones in the morning, and quietly fume in the evening as their arrival from London is held up to see the hourly Ilkley train depart from Leeds, it might be sensible. And missing out the Wakefield-Leeds stretch, and the inevitable getting stuck behind a stopper would improve punctuality.

 

[Schnellzug]

GNER? I presume this is some new Open Access idea, is it? So are they allowed to use the GNER name? Doesn't that remain the property of- well, whoever? The DfT, the executors of Sea Containers?

 

[ainsworth74]

The name was bought by Ian Yeowart fairly soon after GNER the franchise ceased trading.

 

[theblackwatch]

GNER? I presume this is some new Open Access idea, is it? So are they allowed to use the GNER name? Doesn't that remain the property of- well, whoever? The DfT, the executors of Sea Containers?

The name been covered in the thread at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51445 . GNER is part of Alliance Rail, full details of their proposals can be found at http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gner/ - whether any of these plans ever come to fruition or not remains to be seen. Personally I have my doubts, but am happy to be proved incorrect.

 

[Lampshade]

That'll never get off the ground, Bradford's existing London services aren't exactly full and standing.

The only way I can see this working is if they use portion working on all three services as far as Leeds so they can use a single path down the ECML, but then they'll need 3 or 4 car 125mph units, which don't exist hock:

This is just proposing a service for the sake of it, hardly surprising of Alliance.

 

[pemma]

That'll never get off the ground, Bradford's existing London services aren't exactly full and standing.

The only way I can see this working is if they use portion working as far as Leeds so they can use a single path down the ECML, but then they'll need 3 or 4 car 125mph units, which don't exist hock:

This is just proposing a service for the sake of it, hardly surprising of Alliance.

They have close relations with CRSE who they would order Polaris' trains off if they get the go ahead.

 

[fgwrich]

The name been covered in the thread at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51445 . GNER is part of Alliance Rail, full details of their proposals can be found at http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gner/ - whether any of these plans ever come to fruition or not remains to be seen. Personally I have my doubts, but am happy to be proved incorrect.

So do i - The GNER route seems to be a way of trying to get back at Yeowarts former company GC & their Bradford service, whilst also trying to take on East Coast at the same time, on an already rather stretched East Coast Mainline (Orcats Raid?) Whilst the GNWR Idea seems to have services all over the place - Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast, Bradford Interchange (As served by GC) but via the Calder Valley, Leeds via Dewsbury & Huddersfield & Blackpool North - Isn't Blackpool North included in the next West Coast franchise anyway?...Again, all down the already rather congested West Coast Mainline...

Even with their hands in the DB Arriva Pocket, i think even to get themselves close to being approved, they've got alot to prove first, without trying to show how much they could gain from ORCATS raiding!

(And personally, am i one of the few who thinks Grand Central has improved since Mr Yeowart left / was asked to leave GC?!)

 

[Schnellzug]

That'll never get off the ground, Bradford's existing London services aren't exactly full and standing.

The only way I can see this working is if they use portion working on all three services as far as Leeds so they can use a single path down the ECML, but then they'll need 3 or 4 car 125mph units, which don't exist hock:

They do; they're called class 220...

 

[Lampshade]

They do; they're called class 220...

Oh yeah

 

[WillPS]

They do; they're called class 220...

There's also a handful of 4-car 222s - ordered specifically for the ECML!!

 

[Deerfold]

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=adc4e31e12924420d97adc4bc&id=9a28f4f8bf&e=7f866174fe

I'm sure all these places would like more direct services to London (and Ilkley the resumption of a direct service) - but if the service between Leeds and London is only two-hourly how late is the first direct train from some of these going to be?

I commute from Keighley to London and the current EC southbound train is useless for this (Arr KGX 1003) - the 1803 return is a lot more useful.

I suspect Alliance will struggle to get any paths to arrive in London before 1000 unless they can prove theirs is a more useful service than something that currently exists - and I think they'll struggle with that.

They seem to be stopping at an awful lot of ORCATS stops on the way down.

PS - You might want to post a link that doesn't include your e-mail address!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm sure all these places would like more direct services to London (and Ilkley the resumption of a direct service) - but if the service between Leeds and London is only two-hourly how late is the first direct train from some of these going to be?

I commute from Keighley to London and the current EC southbound train is useless for this (Arr KGX 1003) - the 1803 return is a lot more useful.

I suspect Alliance will struggle to get any paths to arrive in London before 1000 unless they can prove theirs is a more useful service than something that currently exists - and I think they'll struggle with that.

They seem to be stopping at an awful lot of ORCATS stops on the way down.

PS - You might want to post a link that doesn't include your e-mail address!

With half hourly services to London and half hourley services from skipton/keighley/leeds/bradford on nice electric multiple units it hardly seems like there is a market that they are trying to tap into.

Stopping at various stations along the ECML will not help there chances in my opinion.

THe other GNER routes to huddersfield and cleethorpes are not the same they just stop at the station they join the ECML at and run straight to London.

 

[Yew]

Could the cleethorpes train stop at lincoln? we want more london services


what about the 180's that EC have spare?

 

[Deerfold]

With half hourly services to London and half hourley services from skipton/keighley/leeds/bradford on nice electric multiple units it hardly seems like there is a market that they are trying to tap into.

Stopping at various stations along the ECML will not help there chances in my opinion.

THe other GNER routes to huddersfield and cleethorpes are not the same they just stop at the station they join the ECML at and run straight to London.

And their GNWR service with another 2-hourly service to Bradford and 2-hourly to Leeds from Euston.

I'm sure some people would appreciate them but I'm not sure they fit in well with the current services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could the cleethorpes train stop at lincoln?

I don't think so, the service is planned to run to Doncaster then run along through Scunthorp so to hit Lincoln it would then have to reverse at somewhere like Barnetby and then reverse again at Lincoln going through Barnetby again to get to Cleethorpes.

Now a service that went to Cleethorpes via Lincoln from the off might make a lot of sense (more London trains for Lincoln and Cleethorpes gets a direct service again), but of course you miss out of the juicy ORCATS potential of Doncaster :roll:

we want more london servicesp

As the song says "you can't always get what you want"

what about the 180's that EC have spare?

Last that I heard at Alliance Rail were working closely with CSRE to acquire some of their Polaris trains. This could also tie in with the rumour that was going around not so long ago that CSRE would have rolling stock in the UK for demonstration/trail purposes in the next few years. Though if that fails through I don't think there would be enough 180s spare to run all the services that Alliance want to as there are only 5 180s available.

 

[Yew]

As the song says "you can't always get what you want"

As my grandad said, If you dont ask, you dont get. And if you ask, they will either give it you, sell it you, or tell you the cheapest place to get your own.

 

[fgwrich]

I don't think so, the service is planned to run to Doncaster then run along through Scunthorp so to hit Lincoln it would then have to reverse at somewhere like Barnetby and then reverse again at Lincoln going through Barnetby again to get to Cleethorpes.

Now a service that went to Cleethorpes via Lincoln from the off might make a lot of sense (more London trains for Lincoln and Cleethorpes gets a direct service again), but of course you miss out of the juicy ORCATS potential of Doncaster :roll:



As the song says "you can't always get what you want"



Last that I heard at Alliance Rail were working closely with CSRE to acquire some of their Polaris trains. This could also tie in with the rumour that was going around not so long ago that CSRE would have rolling stock in the UK for demonstration/trail purposes in the next few years. Though if that fails through I don't think there would be enough 180s spare to run all the services that Alliance want to as there are only 5 180s available.

Could the cleethorpes train stop at lincoln? we want more london services


what about the 180's that EC have spare?

As for the 180s - Out of the 5 originally leased by East Coast, 3 were subleased up to Northern, whilst East Coast's two remained in Bounds Green depot - These two are apparently undergoing repainting / refurbishment and reliability modifications up in Wabtec Rail Scotlands Kilmarnock plant for use with First Group (And will be followed by the 3 currently with Northern come December!)

 

[caliwag]

Sorry I don't know what CRSE is...but this must assume new trains...not 180s or borrowed 125s...it assumes wires from Hambleton South to Garforth (little used) and Nev Hill to Holgate by 2014/5 when all this will start. So Brand new electric stock from wherever.(who cares...the Germans+overseas guys will rattle out the trains as required...nae problem) So it seems a bold venture. of course given that Alliance is owned by DB, it's not a two-bit outfit trying to break into the big railway. Big shake up...good luck to them...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry I don't know what CRSE is...but this must assume new trains...not 180s or borrowed 125s...it assumes wires from Hambleton South to Garforth (little used) and Nev Hill to Holgate by 2014/5 when all this will start. So Brand new electric stock from wherever.(who cares...the Germans+overseas guys will rattle out the trains as required...nae problem) So it seems a bold venture. of course given that Alliance is owned by DB, it's not a two-bit outfit trying to break into the big railway. Big shake up...good luck to them...

CRSE are a chinese train manufacturer (correct me if i am wrong) They have designed a brand called 'Polaris' and hope to sell them in the U.K

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry I don't know what CRSE is...

Chinese Sourced Railway Equipment. You can find their website here and the Wiki entry on the Polaris train here. Polaris can be delivered in a Bi-mode version so no new wiring is actually needed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Chinese Sourced Railway Equipment. You can find their website here and the Wiki entry on the Polaris train here. Polaris can be delivered in a Bi-mode version so no new wiring is actually needed.

You did a much better job of it than i did ta i was just looking for a link

 

[caliwag]

OK thanks. However it's interesting to note that apart from the little issue of Hambleton to Neville Hill, all the other routes are under wires (am I right?) so by 2014/5 it's all wires (unless a plug is pulled!). So GNER (sic) will not need bi-mode unless they have odd plans for London to Settle or Harrogate, which bizarrely may be third rail by then...hahaaaaaaa!

 

[YorkshireRider]

Nice idea but as the previous poster from Keighley pointed out will the timings be of good use to commuters? Is it in the dft's intrest with bids for the EC franchise coming up next year to give this the go ahead, surely this would de-value the franchise? Also the map on the link shows Micklefield Parkway, ive heard nothing of this proposed development, anyone have any info on it?

 

[caliwag]

Indeed Micklefield parkway has been bumbling around for a while, probably to justify electrifaction of Neville H to Holgate (as if that were needed) so that the Northern electrics could go through Leeds (rather than taking up platforms) and turn round there...so it's been on the books for a while. I bet you there's a fully costed project (down to CCTV locations) on someone's computer as we speak!

 

[Deerfold]

Nice idea but as the previous poster from Keighley pointed out will the timings be of good use to commuters? Is it in the dft's intrest with bids for the EC franchise coming up next year to give this the go ahead, surely this would de-value the franchise? Also the map on the link shows Micklefield Parkway, ive heard nothing of this proposed development, anyone have any info on it?

And just to confuse things there's a different map on the website showing Garforth instead.

 

[caliwag]

OK only just revisitd maps so the stock will be hybrid for Cleethorpes, Sheffield and does give flexibility for say Harrogate, Scarborough etc.

 

[The Sleeper]

Strange about CSRE - as Abellio has been speaking to them as well...do the Germans and the Dutch know something we don't??? Maybe they're offering to pay for them in Euro's)

 

[Yew]

That polaris is a good looking train, both in appearance and design ) LHCS with power cars, hopefully if the build quality is up to scratch, and the engines/suspension good and reliable, then I wouldnf complain at an order of them

 

[Schnellzug]

"According to the Managing Director of CSRE, David Shipley, there has been interest from a number of train operating companies, and the Polaris will be operating in the UK by 2012"

Seems a little optimistic, perhaps, but I am pleased to see someone considering something other than the Multiple-Units-for-Everything mantra.