Theresa Villiers says Northern Hub to only go ahead in part

[sittingnev]

http://www.rail.co/2011/10/26/rail-minister-casts-doubt-on-northern-hub/

Its not often I feel oblidged to post on foums in general, as most of the time my comments have already been made.

But this one makes me think WTF! If this is cancelled/ or cut short of what is needed, there will be uproar!!!

And people say there is no north/south divide

 

[pemma]

Metro Chairman Cllr James Lewis says ‘alarm bells are ringing across the north of England after Rail Minster Theresa Villiers cast doubt on the future of a major rail improvement scheme’ during a recent visit to Leeds.

“During her speech to last week’s Northern Rail Summit at Leeds’ Malmaison Hotel, Mrs Villiers indicated that the Northern Hub, the rail industry’s key scheme for improving train services across northern England, unlikely to be implemented as a whole because of its high cost,” said Cllr Lewis.

“With the Government claiming it wants to close the north south divide you would think ministers would find a way of supporting a rail scheme that will underpin growth right across the north of England, helping to create thousands of jobs by bring key economic centres closer together,” he continued.

“Particularly as the scheme would deliver over £4bn of benefits for a capital cost of £530 million.

“However with completion nearing on the £1/2bn upgrade of London’s Kings Cross rail station, which will complement the £1/2bn revamp of London’s Kings Cross Underground station booking hall, the £1/2bn refurbishment of London’s Victoria Station starting this year and the £16bn London Crossrail project underway, you can understand why money for schemes in the north must be tight.

“Rather than the Crossrail Two route already being mooted for the overheated, overcrowded capital, what’s needed is a Crossrail One for the north which the Northern Hub plan would deliver in spades.

“And at £4 of benefit for every £1 spent, how can the country not afford it?” Cllr Lewis said.

http://www.rail.co/2011/10/26/rail-minister-casts-doubt-on-northern-hub/

 

[All Line Rover]

What has she actually said? I can't find anything on it - it certainly seems odd.

 

[pemma]

What has she actually said? I can't find anything on it - it certainly seems odd.

They've quoted what the Metro chairman has quoted her as saying which is "that the Northern Hub is unlikely to be implemented as a whole because of its high cost."

 

[LexyBoy]

“However with completion nearing on the £1/2bn upgrade of London’s Kings Cross rail station, which will complement the £1/2bn revamp of London’s Kings Cross Underground station booking hall, the £1/2bn refurbishment of London’s Victoria Station starting this year and the £16bn London Crossrail project underway, you can understand why money for schemes in the north must be tight.

Translation: "We've spent all the money on London and shall fart in your general direction"

 

[Oswyntail]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/speeches/villiers-20111020b
What she says is that phase 2 will be examined, and it is unlikely to be an "all or nothing" decision. Just what you would expect, really. In any major, multi-phase project, later phases are redeveloped in the light of lessons learnt in - or requirements changed by - earlier ones.

 

[deltic]

The relevant extract of her speech is

"Thirty years after it was first proposed, the Ordsall Chord has finally got the go ahead.

Phase one of the Northern Hub programme, the Ordsall Chord project will tackle a major bottleneck in the network, and enable faster and much more frequent services to run across the North of England - including between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, and Hull.

Real investment in rail in the north.

And real support for the Northern economy.

We also recognise the benefits that the remainder of the Northern Hub programme could offer.

We’ll be looking very seriously at the whole proposal in the run up to next July’s HLOS 2 statement.

But there’s no doubt that the package as a whole is an expensive one.

Affordability issues will need careful consideration, and it will be necessary to make a judgment on the different components individually.

This is unlikely to be an ‘all-or-nothing’ decision"

it can be read in full here http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/speeches/villiers-20111020b

 

[DarloRich]

Same old Tory boys - support the south while thowing a few crumbs to the north ( not that Manchester is the North )

 

[tbtc]

So the Manchester part goes ahead, but the plans for the rest of "the north" are potentially shelved?

 

[pemma]

So the Manchester part goes ahead, but the plans for the rest of "the north" are potentially shelved?

More and faster services on North TPE seems to be part of phase 1 based on what deltic posted above. That benefits Huddersfield and Leeds, in particular, as well as Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Metro Chairman Cllr James Lewis says ‘alarm bells are ringing across the north of England after Rail Minster Theresa Villiers cast doubt on the future of a major rail improvement scheme’ during a recent visit to Leeds]

Rather strange, that TfGM who normally flag up any dramatic news on their media centre page on their website, have not felt the need to make any mention of the implications to the Northern Hub proposals, that were reported as being said in this speech.

 

[PR1Berske]

So the Manchester part goes ahead, but the plans for the rest of "the north" are potentially shelved?

Typical.

It's always the same. Manchester gets the gold, the rest of us crumbs. Sometimes not even crumbs, just the empty packet and told to make do.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Translation: "We've spent all the money on London and shall fart in your general direction"

Now that is my quote of the day. You've made my day!

It is disgraceful to be honest, its not alike 530 million is a lot of money for the whole thing.... they spent that much upgrading one underground station in london so how come we cant have it for a regional benefit!

 

[ainsworth74]

It's always the same. Manchester gets the gold, the rest of us crumbs. Sometimes not even crumbs, just the empty packet and told to make do.

*Cue all the NW members to start ranting on about WYPTE and Leeds rail services*

 

[PR1Berske]

*Cue all the NW members to start ranting on about WYPTE and Leeds rail services*

Well there is reason to gripe. Lancashire gets shafted at every opportunity - usually because of Yorkshire and always because of Manchester.

 

[pemma]

Typical.

It's always the same. Manchester gets the gold, the rest of us crumbs. Sometimes not even crumbs, just the empty packet and told to make do.

Rolling stock on local services going in to Manchester is far inferior to that going in to Leeds and Hull. I'd say Leeds gets the gold, Hull gets the silver and Manchester gets the coal.

 

[Lampshade]

Rolling stock on local services going in to Manchester is far inferior to that going in to Leeds and Hull. I'd say Leeds gets the gold, Hull gets the silver and Manchester gets the coal.

Which is why the FNW and ATN franchises should never have been merged, the incumbent operator is always going to favour their own back yard over anywhere else.

 

[cle]

And then those from North Manchester will moan and complain that South Manchester gets preferential treatment etc.... when does the victim complex end?

Be glad you're getting something. Other regions such as the North East and South West - and the East Midlands and Wales for that matter, get much less.

The fact remains that when Northerners moan about money not being evenly distributed, they mean to their city - usually Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool/Sheffield.

There's a lot more to what comprises 'not-London' than those four cities.

 

[Schnellzug]

Rail Minister Theresa Villiers? So there's a Rail Minister as well, is there? I never knew that.
And people say the Political industry isn't just a job creation scheme for people who just want to have power over others.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It is disgraceful to be honest, its not alike 530 million is a lot of money for the whole thing.... they spent that much upgrading one underground station in london so how come we cant have it for a regional benefit!

The answer is that a lot more people live in the SE than in the north. And in my experience you would be hard pressed to convince young professionals to relocate from London to the north.

 

[DarloRich]

The answer is that a lot more people live in the SE than in the north. And in my experience you would be hard pressed to convince young professionals to relocate from London to the north.

having moved the other way i must think that they must be fools NOT to want to go north!!

 

[WestCoast]

The answer is that a lot more people live in the SE than in the north. And in my experience you would be hard pressed to convince young professionals to relocate from London to the north.

According to the EU parliamentary constituencies:

North West = 6,853,200 (2006)
Yorkshire and the Humber = 5,142,400 (2006)
North East = 2,515,442 (2001)
_______________________________________________

Greater London = 7,753,600 (mid-2009)
South East England = 8,000,550 (2001)

 

[pemma]

The answer is that a lot more people live in the SE than in the north.

Very exaggerated statement.

The South East and London have a population of 15.1 million combined. The North has a combined population of 14.2 million so there is 6% more people living in London and the South East than the North. Therefore, if the rail budget for London and the South East is £x billion there is no reason why a rail budget for the North should be £y million.

 

[sprinterguy]

Can anyone tell me (preferably in some nice, succinct bullet points) exactly what Phase 2 of the Northern Hub projects is intended to entail?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Very exaggerated statement.

The South East and London have a population of 15.1 million combined. The North has a combined population of 14.2 million so there is 6% more people living in London and the South East than the North. Therefore, if the rail budget for London and the South East is £x billion there is no reason why a rail budget for the North should be £y million.

Not at all. 15.1 million people are concentrated into a much smaller area in the South East than the whole of the North and so the need for public transport is greater.

 

[tbtc]

More and faster services on North TPE seems to be part of phase 1 based on what deltic posted above. That benefits Huddersfield and Leeds, in particular, as well as Manchester.

Apart from the new chord at Ordsall (Manchester), what other improvements will there be? I'm not aware of any improvements in Yorkshire.

Presumably this means we can forget all ideas of TPE electrification now...

Rolling stock on local services going in to Manchester is far inferior to that going in to Leeds and Hull. I'd say Leeds gets the gold, Hull gets the silver and Manchester gets the coal.

In a thread about "fantasy EMU cascades" recently I said that a four coach EMU (on newly electrified lines into Manchester) would be a capacity increase compared to a Sprinter/Pacer - you retorted that peak services into Manchester were either doubled up 150/156s or (five coach) 180s.

Apart from sticking random 153s onto Calderdale/Caldervale services (plus some doubled Harrogate line services), there's really not a lot of long Northern DMU services in Yorkshire (I can't think of any doubled up Northern services in Sheffield, but plenty single 153 diagrams).

 

[PR1Berske]

Rolling stock on local services going in to Manchester is far inferior to that going in to Leeds and Hull. I'd say Leeds gets the gold, Hull gets the silver and Manchester gets the coal.

My attitude comes from being Lancastrian

 

[pemma]

Apart from the new chord at Ordsall (Manchester), what other improvements will there be? I'm not aware of any improvements in Yorkshire.

As I stated in the post you quoted from the North TPE frequency and speed improvements are set to go ahead. This will mean 6 fast trains per hour between Huddersfield and Leeds - 4 running non-stop and 2 calling at only Dewsbury. How is that not an improvement for Yorkshire?

In a thread about "fantasy EMU cascades" recently I said that a four coach EMU (on newly electrified lines into Manchester) would be a capacity increase compared to a Sprinter/Pacer - you retorted that peak services into Manchester were either doubled up 150/156s or (five coach) 180s.

I was referring mainly to your suggestion that the 6 car TPE operations arriving in Manchester in the morning peak would become 4 car EMU operations. Leeds also sees 6 car TPE operation.

I also remember mentioning that 5 car 180s have the same sort of capacity as a pair of Sprinters.

Apart from sticking random 153s onto Calderdale/Caldervale services (plus some doubled Harrogate line services), there's really not a lot of long Northern DMU services in Yorkshire (I can't think of any doubled up Northern services in Sheffield, but plenty single 153 diagrams).

West Yorkshire has a lot less 2 carriage trains though with it's 3 car 144s and 158s and it's 4 car EMUs (with more being introduced this year.) Isn't the Calder Vale line the line which Northern strengthen the most services on and are strengthening even more from December?

My attitude comes from being Lancastrian

In that case if you ignore the 323s it's exactly the same.

Not at all. 15.1 million people are concentrated into a much smaller area in the South East than the whole of the North and so the need for public transport is greater.

If they are concentrated in a smaller area they can more easily walk or cycle to a station that isn't their closest so we can close half the stations in the South East and save money :grin:

 

[tbtc]

Leeds also sees 6 car TPE operation

Nothing like as many as the doubled up Manchester Airport - Preston/Lancaster services

West Yorkshire has a lot less 2 carriage trains though with it's 3 car 144s

A three coach 144 (like under half of the 144s are) only has (roughly) the same capacity as a two coach Sprinter, due to the short Pacer coaches.

There are plenty doubled up Pacers "west" side, but very few on the "east" side.

 

[Nym]

Nothing like as many as the doubled up Manchester Airport - Preston/Lancaster services

That run at half the frequency of Manchester - Huddersfeild - Leeds services....