Off Peak BVR

[mikeg]

Looking at London to York fares I notice this ticket type. The restriction (1J) seems to be quite liberal except break of journey is not allowed. Non-standard railcard discounts apply. What is it exactly? Avantix just says 'off peak BVR' as the ticket type without much explanation.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's essentially an Off-Peak Return ticket with that restriction - think the BVR probably means "Business Value Return".

 

[mikeg]

Grrr... I thought such tickets were meant to have been gotten rid of with 'simplification' and that we were meant to just have three walk up ticket types: Anytime, off peak, super off peak. Even if the names weren't right, it would be a lot simpler. It's also cheaper than the Off Peak Return (SVR) or the Weekender for that matter. Somehow it just doesn't seem right it existing. And how come Avantix doesn't list it as being priced by East Coast with the 'ECC' next to it? Why are the railcard discounts non standard I wonder? That's usually something reserved for tickets that include a non-travel or non-National Rail element. I'm presuming it's to compete with Grand Central.
Why didn't they just lower the off peak return price if they wanted to do that though?

 

[transportphoto]

[Slightly Off Topic]

This is another brilliant example of how

our fares system is!

[/Slightly Off Topic]

 

[mikeg]

Hmm.. and the fact it's only available to certain stations means people from intermediate stations get ripped off and it's cheaper to go further. And you need to split tickets to get cheap train travel from stations further North.

 

[wibble]

It's essentially an Off-Peak Return ticket with that restriction - think the BVR probably means "Business Value Return".

BVR was the old Business Saver Return and was priced between the Off Peak Return (SVR) and the Anytime Return (SOR). It was less restrictive than the SVR but not as flexible as the SOR.

 

[raildude]

Grrr... I thought such tickets were meant to have been gotten rid of with 'simplification' and that we were meant to just have three walk up ticket types: Anytime, off peak, super off peak. Even if the names weren't right, it would be a lot simpler. It's also cheaper than the Off Peak Return (SVR) or the Weekender for that matter. Somehow it just doesn't seem right it existing. And how come Avantix doesn't list it as being priced by East Coast with the 'ECC' next to it? Why are the railcard discounts non standard I wonder? That's usually something reserved for tickets that include a non-travel or non-National Rail element. I'm presuming it's to compete with Grand Central.
Why didn't they just lower the off peak return price if they wanted to do that though?

I think you have you wires crossed.

This ticket does not exist... my colleague reliably informs me whilst fiddling with his portable machine There is a "BFR" ticket but no BVR for London to York. Maybe your information is out of date?

 

[David]

IIRC, the York - London BVR was introduced just after Grand Central started running to/from Sunderland, as it was priced cheaper than the GC only peak time fare, so enabled you to get to London slightly earlier.

 

[mikeg]

I think you have you wires crossed.

The BVR London to York is a First Class return ticket. The restriction is 1V and is limited to East Coast trains.

Really? Avantix clearly says it's a Standard Class Return.

 

[raildude]

Really? Avantix clearly says it's a Standard Class Return.

See my revised post. There was a similar BFR ticket...

 

[mikeg]

Ah... I 'm using NFM 10, so this is curious... Maybe there has been a revision since or an error in the Avantix data?

The BVR appears in the 'any permitted' column and the BFR appears in the 'EC Only' column.

I do recall EC was running an EC only special offer on and off shortly after the launch of Grand Central by a similar name to those mentioned above...

 

[lemonic]

I think you have you wires crossed.

This ticket does not exist... my colleague reliably informs me whilst fiddling with his portable machine There is a "BFR" ticket but no BVR for London to York. Maybe your information is out of date?

But is there a BVR ticket from York to London?

 

[raildude]

But is there a BVR ticket from York to London?

No

 

[LexyBoy]

I think you have you wires crossed.

This ticket does not exist... my colleague reliably informs me whilst fiddling with his portable machine There is a "BFR" ticket but no BVR for London to York. Maybe your information is out of date?

Both NRE and EC's site show the BVR as available (priced £124.00) for London-York.

I would hope that this is what I'd be sold if went to King's Cross and asked for a return to York. If I were sold the SVR then I'd be having a stern word with someone...

(Quite how anyone is supposed to know what is what - as both SVR and BVR are shown as "Off Peak Return" - I'm not sure).

 

[AlterEgo]

But is there a BVR ticket from York to London?

I believe there is from an industry Journey Planner, which has the fare at £124.00. "Off Peak BVR".

 

[raildude]

Well it if does exist, it doesn't appear on the handheld machines our conductors use...

Is NRE National Rail enquiries?

 

[John @ home]

The £124 BVR fare appears in National Fares Manual NFM 10 CD and East Coast are happy to sell it. It appears to be valid on more trains than the £157 SVR.

London Terminals - York route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return BVR £124

Validity code 1J
Outward travel northbound by any train scheduled to depart London Terminals before 0645 & at or after 0759. Outward break of journey is not permitted.
Return travel southbound by any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals at or after 1008.

London Terminals - York route Any Permitted Off-Peak Return SVR £157

Validity code 1V
Outward travel northbound by any train scheduled to depart London Terminals before 0645, between 0759 0816 and 1558 inclusive & at or after 1746.
Return travel southbound by any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals at or after 1005 1008.

Outward break of journey is permitted with the £157 SVR.

For the £157 SVR, text in bold and strikethrough show what appear to be recent changes to Validity code 1V.

 

[yorkie]

This product, though the price has varied, has existed for many years, I do not know when it was introduced, but it would not surprise me if it was 10 years or longer ago. This ticket type was called "Business Saver Return" and the code was BVR.

I see "Simplification" has been mentioned, and what happened here was no different to what happened elsewhere and tickets were put into one of three categories, Off Peak, Anytime and Advance. Within the Off Peak category, there is a type called Off Peak Return, and that is what this ticket is.

The normal 3-letter code for the Off Peak Return ticket is 'SVR', and this applies to the Off Peak Return from York to London priced at £157.00.

Sometimes EC will sell these Off Peak Return tickets at a discounted price, in order to encourage people to switch from Grand Central, the discounted price is not much higher than the GC Only Anytime fare, and is valid on the Grand Central trains and gives much more flexibility, being also valid on East Coast (and EMT, etc...) services. When they do this, they do not actually reduce the price of the 'SVR' and sell a ticket using the previous code for this ticket, 'BVR'. The product is identical, but the fare is lower.

As for the restrictions, ATOC claim that the new names describe when you can use a ticket, so in theory you can simply look at the name (Off Peak) and then you know when it's valid. If you think that is misleading, I would encourage you to contact your MP, the DfT, Passenger Focus and any other person/organisation you feel is appropriate.

The 'BVR' appears to have the restrictions that used to apply to the 'SVR' under NFM08 (I didn't check NFM09), it is likely that this has not been updated to reflect the new timetable, as in theory the current 'SVR' and the 'BVR' are the same product, just with a different price.

 

[John @ home]

Sometimes EC will sell these Off Peak Return tickets at a discounted price, in order to encourage people to switch from Grand Central ... When they do this, they do not actually reduce the price of the 'SVR' and sell a ticket using the previous code for this ticket, 'BVR'. The product is identical, but the fare is lower.

If the validity codes quoted in post #17 are correct, then the products are not identical. But I now notice that East Coast allows reservations on the 0800 from Kings X with both the £124 BVR and the £157 SVR. If the codes are correct, only the £124 ticket should be allowed. I suspect the codes may be out of date.

The ticket type is shown as OFF PEAK BVR for the £124 fare and OFF-PEAK R for the £157 one.

 

[yorkie]

Yep, I looked into this as you were typing your reply, and the restriction code text did change for the new timetable (probably at the start of NFM09), but it looks like the 'BVR' has not been updated in Avantix Traveller.