Could class 87s be used in the North West?

[pemma]

My understanding is there are 4 Class 87s in store that haven't been scrapped. Could these be used on Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fasts if as expected there are no EMUs available to use when the line is electrified or are these going to be exported as well?

 

[tbtc]

My understanding is there are 4 Class 87s in store that haven't been scrapped. Could these be used on Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fasts if as expected there are no EMUs available to use when the line is electrified or are these going to be exported as well?

I thought that you'd said that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service was going back to Warrington (with the Liverpool - Scarborough service running over Chat Moss instead)?

 

[Hydro]

Haven't Europhoenix done up 2 or 3 for use in the UK? What stock would they be used with though? You'd need Mk3's and overhaul some DVT's to make them any real use.

 

[pemma]

I thought that you'd said that the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service was going back to Warrington (with the Liverpool - Scarborough service running over Chat Moss instead)?

That's after the Ordsall Chord which is due 3 years after electrification of the Chat Moss.

The plan pre-Ordsall Chord is to run the Liverpool to Manchester Airport service as it is and 2tph between Lime Street and Victoria doing all stops.

Post-Ordsall Chord the definite plans are to switch the lines which the Liverpool to Scarborough and Liverpool to Manchester Airport services run on and for an additional Liverpool-Manchester semi-fast, which would likely be a limited stop Liverpool to Manchester Victoria interworked with the TPE service.

There may be provision to extend the Liverpool to Victoria services to Stalybridge, if Stalybridge gets electrified. The CLC line may have improvements to give 5 trains per hour on that line.

What stock would they be used with though? You'd need Mk3's and overhaul some DVT's to make them any real use.

I was assuming they would be easier to source than electric locos.

 

[Hydro]

You could pick up DVT's for a song, but they need some pretty serious work to get them running again, I gather they're in pretty poor state.

 

[Nym]

The're up for sale at Porterbrook and in a reasonably sorry state, but they wouldn't need much of an overhaul to be honest, since the control systems would remain the same. (Unlike chiltern's overhaul that means AAR equipment being fitted)

If we're short of EMU Stock short term perhaps the use of some Cargo-D or EWS Mk2/3 stock on the route, working in conjunction with Class 87, or 90 locomotives with TDM onto the DVTs for a 4 - 5 car rake could work quite nicely, especially for the Manchester Airport / Victoria - Liverpool services. The major problem would be that the running costs for such a rake would be a lot more expensive than that of an EMU. Unless the leasing costs for such stock could be kept rock bottom.

This does further come back to the idea of having a 'universal' Mk3 + DVT rake that can be pulled by any locomotive (including TDM and AAR Stock, add duplicate wiring) and an ETH generator in the DVT for use with Non-ETH Locomotives (Not needed for the 87/90).

Would be a lot easyer to throw together for the 87 or 90 though, already being TDM compatable and ETH, therefore easy to run with Mk3 or Mk2 stock with a DVT or DBSO on t'other end.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My understanding is there are 4 Class 87s in store that haven't been scrapped. Could these be used on Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fasts if as expected there are no EMUs available to use when the line is electrified or are these going to be exported as well?

What number of carriages would you envisage to run these semi-fasts and would there be any problems with the platform lengths at all the stations that would be served by these trains? What stations do you envisage to be served by these semi-fasts?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What number of carriages would you envisage to run these semi-fasts and would there be any problems with the platform lengths at all the stations that would be served by these trains? What stations do you envisage to be served by these semi-fasts?

All stations Manchester Airport-Liverpool Lime St inclusive can take 5 x 20m coaches on the relevant platforms, so top and tail locos and 2 / 3 passenger coaches should be OK. Whether it would block junctions at Oxford Rd and Earlestown though remains to be seen.

 

[pemma]

What number of carriages would you envisage to run these semi-fasts and would there be any problems with the platform lengths at all the stations that would be served by these trains? What stations do you envisage to be served by these semi-fasts?

I'm proposing loco-hauled stock as an interim measure on the existing Lime Street-Airport service between when the wires go up and when the 319s are ready to come in to service. This would allow the 156s currently used on the service to be used to strengthen other services sooner.

I'd suggest 4 carriages per set as the 319s will be 4 carriages.

 

[Nym]

And 4 car + loco + dvt would be the limit for Manc Oxford Road...

 

[Phil6219]

Sounds like a very good idea, I really hope it would come to fruition.

As for the 87s currently? Someone had mentioned a few weeks back that they were returning to the mainline to haul the 325s during winter. Weather it happens remains to be seen, but we can only hope

Phil

 

[tbtc]

I really hope it would come to fruition

I'd be surprised.

Note that, despite suffering from a shortage of stock, Northern haven't introduced loco-hauled services for diesel services, despite Scotrail FGW/ ATW etc having brought loco-hauled services back.

They don't seem interested in the complications, I guess.

 

[pemma]

It may not be up to Northern Rail though. The franchise ends towards the end of 2013. Bidders for the new franchise may want to add interim measures in to their bids to make them look more attractive.

Northern, do have a small 180 fleet which is really the equivalent of having loco-hauled stock and the loco hauled Workington shuttle was actually a Northern service even though it was operated by a third party

 

[ukrob]

Pure fantasy. Having 180's is not 'equivalent to having loco hauled' at all. Besides which, they will be gone in a month.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

All stations Manchester Airport-Liverpool Lime St inclusive can take 5 x 20m coaches on the relevant platforms, so top and tail locos and 2 / 3 passenger coaches should be OK. Whether it would block junctions at Oxford Rd and Earlestown though remains to be seen.

There shouldn't be a problem with any of the junctions at Earlestown.

 

[pemma]

Having 180's is not 'equivalent to having loco hauled' at all. Besides which, they will be gone in a month.

They have similarities with loco hauled sets at Northern in that are non-standard, more expensive to run than Sprinters and more suited for services not stopping at all stations

And what would Northern have taken on if NXEC had not been willing to sublease 180s? Either Northern would have needed to take on loco-hauled sets or they would have needed the 142s from FGW back or the LO 150s, which would have meant more loco-hauled operation for FGW.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a matter of interest, besides the Manchester and Liverpool links to the WCML route, what other passenger services were ever run in the North West by the Class 87 fleet in past days, if any?
.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Apart from the WCML itself? possibly just the diversionary route via Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows, not much else is electrified. I think an 86 has been to Hadfield in recent times hauling a charter train.

 

[captainbigun]

Sounds like a very good idea, I really hope it would come to fruition.

As for the 87s currently? Someone had mentioned a few weeks back that they were returning to the mainline to haul the 325s during winter. Weather it happens remains to be seen, but we can only hope

Phil

That's news to me! There's no proposal from DBS to use ETL traction for Royal Mail standby this winter.

Also worth noting, that there are only three locos in store at LM. The forth is the property of Romic (Bulgarian exporter). It will be heading for scrap in due course.

 

[43167]

I though the Mail Trains were now operated by GBRF. Or have I missed something?.

 

[captainbigun]

Contract transferred to DBS May 2010 as a result of them winning the tender.

 

[Nym]

Or have I missed something?.

Yes...

The're back with DBS now.