Driver overshoots. Not allowed to set back?

[EM2]

A friend has tweeted that the driver of his train had overshot the platform by about ten feet but wasn't allowed to set back, so they've been taken on the next station.
This would have been an 8-car DOO EMU. The platform in question has a signal right at the platform end, but I would be surprised if it'd gone past the overlap.
If it was a SPAD, then would the driver be allowed to continue, and if it's NOT a SPAD, why can't he set back?

 

[A-driver]

Setting back takes a lot of time and can affect other services delaying them. To be honest it's nothing more than a slight inconvinience to the pax-if it's a high frequency service then the next train can pick them up and those on the train can get back from the next stop. By the time permission is cleared, driver has changed ends and back again etc could be 20mins or so.

Depends regarding the SPAD on how bad, and if the driver feels ok to continue to next point where he can be relieved.

 

[ChampsRacing]

It depends on the circumstance, situation and signallers discretion. If there is a level crossing they have gone fully over chances is that the driver will be told to go to the next signal. Most signallers will give permission to set back or if it was a train operated with a guard/conductor they can do local door to detrain the passengers that way.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because on a line with an intensive service, like say, the GE Metro, the time taken to authorise the move, make it happen and be on its way would delay everything behind it for a while and annoy several thousand passengers rather than just this who wanted to make use of the missed stop on the one train concerned.

Also, with an intensive service, there is a good chance that there would already be a train at the signal in rear, and the set back move has a small degree of operational risk.

 

[GB]

A friend has tweeted that the driver of his train had overshot the platform by about ten feet but wasn't allowed to set back, so they've been taken on the next station.
This would have been an 8-car DOO EMU. The platform in question has a signal right at the platform end, but I would be surprised if it'd gone past the overlap.
If it was a SPAD, then would the driver be allowed to continue, and if it's NOT a SPAD, why can't he set back?

Did the train go over any trailing points?

 

[EM2]

Did the train go over any trailing points?

Not that I can think of, there's a junction a hundred yards or so further down.
Thinking about it, I think the first door would have been off the platform, and with no guard and no SDO, I suppose the doors can't be opened, so going forward probably is the quickest solution.

 

[driver9000]

Depends regarding the SPAD on how bad, and if the driver feels ok to continue to next point where he can be relieved.

If a SPAD had occured and the train was to be moved by the original Driver then that decision would be made by control depending on a few factors. The train would still be stood for quite a while for the forms to be filled in and the decision to be made.

 

[GB]

Not that I can think of, there's a junction a hundred yards or so further down.
Thinking about it, I think the first door would have been off the platform, and with no guard and no SDO, I suppose the doors can't be opened, so going forward probably is the quickest solution.

Cheers, what route/area was it?

Edit: Think I have found it. Was caused by poor rail head conditions and the set back move was declined by the TOC

 

[185]

Probably not allowed to set back through either points or signals.

I know one sausage who did it anyway, without asking or reporting it. Lucky to keep his job. Far worse to get caught for that than to simply admit to being a berk and you forgot the stops on the docket.

 

[A-driver]

Going back many years to BR there was a driver on one of the south London suburban routes who overshot a station. He changed ends and drive back in only to overshoot it again in the wrong direction! Got it 3rd time lucky!

One good thing with SDO is that if you slide through and some of the doors are still on you can just select those to open and don't need to worry about all this.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Going back many years to BR there was a driver on one of the south London suburban routes who overshot a station. He changed ends and drive back in only to overshoot it again in the wrong direction! Got it 3rd time lucky!

The mind boggles. How much did he overshoot by in the first place, and how quickly did he go when he was setting back? hock:

 

[ChrisCooper]

I've seen the effects of someone overshooting and then setting back through sprung points before. Messy, although could have been a lot worse. Not a good idea anyway. Not that many places you could do that on the mainline, or even standard gauge preserved railways though (was a narrow gauge).

 

[marks87]

I was on a Pendolino 4 years ago that overshot at Lockerbie, by quite a distance. After waiting for around 20 minutes or so, we finally started creeping back.

 

[Crossover]

I've seen the effects of someone overshooting and then setting back through sprung points before. Messy, although could have been a lot worse. Not a good idea anyway. Not that many places you could do that on the mainline, or even standard gauge preserved railways though (was a narrow gauge).

I seem to recall reading about that happening at Welshpool not so long back...result, half the 158 went one way and the other part, the other!

 

[RPM]

It is the changing ends that makes setting back so slow. LUL have just introduced a rule change allowing trains to be propelled back if they overshoot by no more that one car. Seems like a good idea to me.

 

[Schnellzug]

I really would say i'd say that was more than a slight inconvenience if you have to go on to the next station and have to get the next one back, just because the train may be one yard or two off the platform. Sounds rather like the railways being run with their own convenience in mind more than that of the people who pay to use them, once again. Couldn't he just shunt back a few yards without having to go through all that rigmarole?

 

[Mike395]

I really would say i'd say that was more than a slight inconvenience if you have to go on to the next station and have to get the next one back, just because the train may be one yard or two off the platform. Sounds rather like the railways being run with their own convenience in mind more than that of the people who pay to use them, once again. Couldn't he just shunt back a few yards without having to go through all that rigmarole?

If a signal has been passed in the process of overshooting then no - you can't just go through a signal than turn back, as theres the danger of having another train directly behind it!

 

[A-driver]

As far as I'm concerned propelling to set back can only ever be safe with a second staff member controlling it. How can it be deemed remotely safe in its own? Moving a 200+tonne train without looking where u are going?!

 

[Anvil1984]

If a train sets back the driver has to drive it from the correct end, you arent allowed to just reverse except in special circumstances, which means if the driver does make a boo boo he has to do the walk of shame down the train most the time (unless he goes down the outside)

 

[AlterEgo]

If a train sets back the driver has to drive it from the correct end

I don't believe that is correct. I'm sure when I was a passenger on a train which suffered an overshoot the driver set it back from the original cab.

 

[Anvil1984]

It is correct definately on the TOC I work for and we have two man operation
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Rulle book TW7 Wrong Direction Movements states

"If you are authorised to make a wrong-direction movement, you
must drive the train from the cab at the leading end of the
movement, if there is one."

 

[GB]

TW7 1.2 states if it is a wrong direction movement then the move must be controlled by the leading cab of the direction the train will travel. If not possible then you can drive from the rear cab providing there is someone to control the movement.

However TW8 13.3 (b) says you can propel a train with the signallers permission (and that will depend on circumstances) if you overshoot a platform. But an EMU or DMU train does not fall into the category of a train that can be propelled.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If a signal has been passed in the process of overshooting then no - you can't just go through a signal than turn back, as theres the danger of having another train directly behind it!

Surely if only part of the train has gone past the signal the next signal back ( to the rear of the train ) would still be red as part of the train is still occupying the section?

This may be a good point to ask how far past a signal qualifies as a SPAD? If you have a case where the front of a train has gone just past the signal post but the leading axle is still ( just! ) on the right side of the signal post by an inch or two, would that be regarded as a SPAD or not? I suspect not, but I would like that confirmed.

 

[GB]

If any part of the train is passed a red signal by any amount then it is classed as a SPAD. However if its only a few inches then there is a higher chance of nobody noticing.

 

[Statto]

Why couldn't the train let passengers off/on without having to go to the next station, with the doors at the front remaining locked?

 

[GB]

You would need to direct that to the TOC as it was their decision to allow the train to continue.

 

[A-driver]

The term 'set back' is being used incorrectly on here which is why there is confusion.

During a station overshoot you would make a wrong direction movement. For this the train must be driven from the leading cab so will involve driver changing ends for this. Setting back is from other than the leading cab-the main time that we would set back is when detaching multiple unit trains and then we only set back by 2feet. Propelling is driving from other than the leading cab and the only real reason you would propel would be freight moves in certain yards where a shunter would control the move using radio/hand signals etc as it is not possible to drive fom the leading end.

 

[GB]

The term 'set back' is being used incorrectly on here which is why there is confusion.

During a station overshoot you would make a wrong direction movement. For this the train must be driven from the leading cab so will involve driver changing ends for this. Setting back is from other than the leading cab-the main time that we would set back is when detaching multiple unit trains and then we only set back by 2feet. Propelling is driving from other than the leading cab and the only real reason you would propel would be freight moves in certain yards where a shunter would control the move using radio/hand signals etc as it is not possible to drive fom the leading end.

"set back" is no longer and official term in the rule book though company instructions maybe different. I originally said it to keep things simple but it is now either a wrong direction move, propelling move or a move from other than the leading cab.

As for propelling, there are other circumstances a train maybe required to propel and that is not just with freight trains in yards.

 

[michael769]

If a train sets back the driver has to drive it from the correct end, you arent allowed to just reverse except in special circumstances, which means if the driver does make a boo boo he has to do the walk of shame down the train most the time (unless he goes down the outside)

I would imagine going outside is frowned upon if the train is beyond the platform.

Having been on an overshoot recently I can confirm it is a walk of shame - it was obvious from the smiles and giggles that everyone on the train knew he had forgotten to stop at the station.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If any part of the train is passed a red signal by any amount then it is classed as a SPAD. However if its only a few inches then there is a higher chance of nobody noticing.

Where's the IBJ?


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