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M5 closed after major accident

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richw

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But, we have one eye-witness who was involved saying it wasn't smoke, but a thick patch of fog.

Conclusions on the cause ain't really helpful. That is down to the investigating authorities.

My brother works in the sainsburys that backs onto the motorway at J25, he has said that when he left work at 8, the fog was so thick he couldnt see the front of his car in places. He also commented that people were still driving at 70, and he wasnt surprised there was an accident, but was surprised on the size of the accident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
whats peoples thoughts on the following:

In france the speed limit is reduced considerably in poor weather,
In Greece the speed limit reduces by 30kmh from 300 yards before until 300 yards after motorway junctions!

Do people thinks either of these would improve safety in the UK?
 
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Minilad

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My brother works in the sainsburys that backs onto the motorway at J25, he has said that when he left work at 8, the fog was so thick he couldnt see the front of his car in places. He also commented that people were still driving at 70, and he wasnt surprised there was an accident, but was surprised on the size of the accident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
whats peoples thoughts on the following:

In france the speed limit is reduced considerably in poor weather,
In Greece the speed limit reduces by 30kmh from 300 yards before until 300 yards after motorway junctions!

Do people thinks either of these would improve safety in the UK?

Probably not as the average BMW driving numpty on Britains motorways would still disregard them as they know they are a perfectly good driver at that speed
 

devon_metro

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In Greece the speed limit reduces by 30kmh from 300 yards before until 300 yards after motorway junctions!

Do people thinks either of these would improve safety in the UK?

No, motorway junctions are fine really, so long as everybody on the motorway is aware of joining traffic. LOwering speeds approaching junctions would likely cause unneccessary congestions and inevitably the numpty not paying any attention will end up rear ending a car!
 

bnm

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Probably not as the average BMW driving numpty on Britains motorways would still disregard them as they know they are a perfectly good driver at that speed

Bit unfair to judge based on the type of car someone drives. :roll:
 

Temple Meads

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Probably not as the average BMW driving numpty on Britains motorways would still disregard them as they know they are a perfectly good driver at that speed

Sorry but as someone who knows a lot of BMW drivers, and also spends a fair amount of time on the motorway, I can tell you that stigma is (at least nowadays) not true, more numpty's drive Audi's now, but that sort of generalisation doesn't help anyone, your average rep in a Mondeo is just as likely to speed.

With regards to this terrible crash, I live within 7 miles of where the motorway closure was put into force, and at the time this happened was on the A38 (the other Devon-Somerset road, which more or less runs parallel to the M5), probably about 5 miles away when it happened, so it was lucky we chose to go the country route..
My sympathy goes out to those who got caught up in this, and their loved ones :(
 

GearJammer

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My point is that most road accidents are not worthy of news, but anything else is.

No of corse there not, because it happens so often, Trains, planes, boats, they rarely suffer any major accidents, so when they do its news and people are just curious as to what has happened, then you move onto roads, if you get a real big smash with some trucks and fatalities people look up and notice, it does'nt happen that often, so again its news but due to these accidents happening more often then train,plane and boat incidents the interest does'nt last that long, accidents that just involve cars crashing (fatalities or not) just don't make the news as no one is interested because its not news worthy, it happens to often, if the news channel reported every car crash incident there would be no time to report on anything else!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The smoke WONT have caused the accident, people driving too fast for the conditions would have.

You are correct with regards to the speed of the drivers during these conditions, but with regards to the smoke, I think you have to look at the existing weather conditions in the area of the crash at that time, as there was fog present. It was said that Taunton Rugby Club held their firework display from 2000 to 2015 and the prevailing weather conditions would not have been conducive to any smoke dispersal that had ensued as a result of this event. The crash occurred only 15 minutes later at 2030. The smoke may have some effect of making the existing conditions worse than they would have been if this event had not been held.
 

Minilad

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Bit unfair to judge based on the type of car someone drives. :roll:

But as you are probably aware it has been a common stereotype in Britain now of quite awhile (Now being superseded by Audi admittedly !) And stereotypes are there as they usually have a basis in fact. In fact only yesterday on the way to football I got within about 10 feet of being sideswiped by a BMW coming straight across from lane three at the very last minute to use a motorway exit. But I digress.
There was a thread on these very forums not so long ago where people happily admitted to breaking the motorway speed limit by quite considerable margins on the basis that they were comfortable at that speed and the vehicle they drive / rode was capable. Unfortunately this sort of selfish attitude often leads to incidents. Motorways in this country are littered with poor lane discipline, too high a speed for the conditions, tailgating, road rage, poor indication, poor overtaking manoeuvres.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry but as someone who knows a lot of BMW drivers, and also spends a fair amount of time on the motorway, I can tell you that stigma is (at least nowadays) not true, more numpty's drive Audi's now, but that sort of generalisation doesn't help anyone, your average rep in a Mondeo is just as likely to speed.


(

I also spend a lot of the time on the Motorway. M40 M42 M6 and M5 and I can say yes its true any car can be involved but in my experience it is usually large rep mobiles or high end stuff that barrels past you at a rapid pace.
Oh and I only know 1 person directly who drives a BMW and she has just been banned for two months on the totting up procedure. 4 speeding offences in a shade over 2 years. And all of the on the motorway. You would think she would learn wouldn't you :roll:
Anyway as you also said. My thoughts go out to the victims and victims families caught up in this utterly horrendous situation. Some of the footage shown on the news last night was mind boggling
 
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I have had experience of driving from somewhere with good visibility to thick fog of less than 50m visibility in seconds on the M6 some years ago.

The motorway was downhill for a short stretch and on the high ground visibility was excellent, but the fog had formed at a lower level (probably close to a river) and without motorway lights on that stretch, and at 70mph it was like running into a white wall.

I wanted to jam my brakes on, but didnt like to do that too suddenly in case someone behind ran into the back of me. I was in the middle lane because I had just overtaken two articulated lorries, but although I felt the urge to move into the left lane, because I was slowing down I had no idea where the lorries were in relation to my car any more, and didnt want them ploughing into the back of me either.

Had I suddenly come upon a jack-knifed lorry, I would have just hit it at about 60-65 mph with about 0.5 second warning, and as it was my brain was trying to believe all sorts of strange shapes were looming out of the fog.

Fortunately for me, and everyone else, the fog patch only lasted about half a mile and I was back out into good visibility before I had a chance to really panic, but I can assure you that sometimes driving too fast for the visibility on a particular stretch of motorway is not purely down to the fault of the driver, or the make of car they drive.
 

bnm

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But as you are probably aware it has been a common stereotype in Britain now of quite awhile (Now being superseded by Audi admittedly !) And stereotypes are there as they usually have a basis in fact. In fact only yesterday on the way to football I got within about 10 feet of being sideswiped by a BMW coming straight across from lane three at the very last minute to use a motorway exit.

Are there any meaningful statistics (not anecdotes) that show BMW or Audi drivers are any worse or better than other drivers? Does someone who, say, owns a BMW and VW change their driving style depending on which vehicle they are in?

People stereotype others because it is easier to comparmentalise than to take in all the complexities of other people as individuals. Once you've compartmentalised a certain group of people (such as, all BMW drivers are bad drivers) it's human nature to avoid processing new or unexpected information about an individual you perceive to be in a certain stereotypical group. Will you remember that BMW driver who let you out of a side street, or the one you once drove into the back of, next time another BMW driver cuts you up?

Dangerous things, stereotypes.
 

YorkshireBear

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The bonfire smoke is now the major line of inquiry.... so i think it may have contributed significantly. And the post from madge wildfire explains why i think people may have been driving appropriately for conditions not expecting a wall of smoke to appear.
 

ralphchadkirk

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http://www.uk-insurance-index.co.uk/articles/bmw-owners-believed-to-be-britains-worst-drivers.html

Whilst BMW drivers are being seen as the worst on our roads, those actually making the most motor insurance claims are Ford owners. Data from Swiftcover reviewed claims made between April 2008 and April 2009 and showed that Ford owners top the table with 23% of claims, followed by Vauxhall owners (15%), VW (12%), Renault (11%) and Peugeot (10%).

Whilst some UK motorists are happy to find fault in other road users, it appears they are less critical of their own abilities as the survey results also show that 22% of motorists rate their driving as 'excellent' and 63% as 'good'.
 

Schnellzug

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The bonfire smoke is now the major line of inquiry.... so i think it may have contributed significantly. And the post from madge wildfire explains why i think people may have been driving appropriately for conditions not expecting a wall of smoke to appear.

I bet they'll sieze on that as an excuse as usual, so that the Government doesn't have to consider the politically unpopular idea of having to do something about driving standards, if they can find some scapegoat as usual.
 

michael769

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That ranking pretty much follows the relative proportions of those models on the road.

The simple truth is that we tend to notice "flash" cars, and thus we tend to notice bad driving from such vehicles more than we notice the bad driving from less "visible" vehicles.

And, of course, if a person thinks drivers of a particular car are worse drivers they will notice bad driving from such drivers much more than they will from drivers who do not conform to their personal prejudices.
 

Temple Meads

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Ford owners making the most insurance claims, followed by Vauxhall, VW, Renault, and Peugeot, wow such a shock, not like their the most popular vehicles on our roads is it:roll:
 

DavidBrown

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Just as an aside, what are the rules on bonfires/firework displays near railways? The mainline actually seperates the rugby club and the crash site on the motorway, so presumably and train drivers passing through the area at the time will be able to testify on whether it was fog or smoke, how bad it was and if it was smoke, whether it was lingering or drifting towards the motorway. I also mentioned on another forum about how bad the fog was before the fireworks - wouldn't it be utterly pointless holding a display in thick fog when you can't see them?
 

jon0844

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I've read that there was fog (but not exceptionally thick), but then a big wall of smoke - and anyone who has been to a fireworks display will know how thick it can get. It's often foggy when there are loads of fireworks being set off, and the weather conditions are 'right'.

You have a point about there being little point in launching fireworks in fog, but it's not usually that bad and you still get to enjoy the bright and colourful lights within fog - possibly in a more amplified form. Thick smoke, from the fireworks, is a different story but any display should include breaks to allow that to disperse.

Perhaps the smoke went as quickly as it arrived, which would have confused some witnesses and the emergency services?

While there may have been motorists driving too close, I can imagine the panic of suddenly being unable to see anything at all may have had people brake sharpish or do something else that caused a situation that nobody had any time to react to.

I'm somewhat sickened that anyone would seek to use this accident to argue for lower speed limits.

I believe the Daily Mail has spoken to a company that already expressed concerns about doing a display there, due to the locality to the motorway, which - if true - could be quite bad for the rugby club.
 

phil8715

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From what i'm led to believe, Avon and Somerset Police force are treating Taunton Rugby Club as a crime scene.

It was first thought that thick fog and the wet conditions caused the crash. Now they the think that smoke from a bonfire drifted over the carriageway.


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jon0844

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If it is proven that the rugby club knew of the danger, having been warned by another company asked to put on a display, I do wonder what will happen given the severity of the accident.
 

313103

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If it is proven that the rugby club knew of the danger, having been warned by another company asked to put on a display, I do wonder what will happen given the severity of the accident.

Why should they receive anything? At the end of the day they didnt tell drivers to take their eyes of the road and not to drive according to road and weather conditions. All those that drive are regarded as being reponsible and are adults, they wouldnt be driving otherwise. Why should the severity of the accident have anything to do with this? If nothing had taken place nothing would be said, if only one person had lost their live it would have been regraded as one of those of things that happens everyday on our roads.
 

Schnellzug

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From what i'm led to believe, Avon and Somerset Police force are treating Taunton Rugby Club as a crime scene.

And how absurd is that? Like it was done with deliberate intent? I'm sorry if it sounds brutal or harsh, but road crashes are caused by drivers. It's as simple as that. There may be contributory factors, but Just like with the captain of a ship or aeroplane [or train drivers], surely ultimate responsibility must lie with the one behind the wheel.
 
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From what I heard on our local news yesterday (not the most reliable source - I agree) the rugby club had cleared the fireworks display with all the relevant authorities.

(Edited to remove the word bonfire, as apparently there was no bonfire at this event - just a firework display).



I am afraid that in these situations, the complexity of the accident does not always mean a great deal when investigating a cause. It only takes one driver to be distracted for a few seconds and collide with the vehicle in front in poor weather conditions and before you know it, all manner of following vehicles can plough into the original relatively minor accident, turning it into an horrific event such as happened on Friday evening.

I am not attempting to apportion blame here, just making an observation, but you dont have to drive very far on any UK motorway at any time of day or night before you see instances of vehicles driving too close to the one in front. If you drive through one of those areas where chevrons are marked on the carriageway, it is easy to see how big a gap (at least two sets of chevrons) you should leave between yourself and the next vehicle. It works out to be about 100 yards at 70mph, and that is for dry, clear conditions.

How many of us can honestly say we regularly approach no closer than 100 yards to the vehicle in front at 70 mph?
 
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Zoe

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I'm sorry if it sounds brutal or harsh, but road crashes are caused by drivers. It's as simple as that.
This is why all efforts should be made to introduce driverless cars as soon as possible.
 

jon0844

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But, rather than do those who tailgated, I am sure we'll see an argument for lower speed limits instead.

Roads claim far more lives than the railway (or aviation) but given the last accident of this severity was around 20 years ago, there's no need for knee-jerk reactions.

But, better enforcement on the road - including tailgaters and middle lane hoggers - all year round might help prevent such incidents as people get to realise that if they drive badly, they might be punished.
 

Zoe

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But, rather than do those who tailgated, I am sure we'll see an argument for lower speed limits instead.
It has been suggested that the speed limit on motorways be reduced to 60 mph to help the UK meet its CO2 targets. If there are safety benefits also then I would have though this could at least be seriously considered.
 

jon0844

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Would 60 have prevented this accident - namely driving through a wall of smoke (as is being stated by witnesses)?

If not, these road safety campaigners with their agendas can shut up! They're just like politicians latching on to things to score points.

There will probably not be a single cause of this accident, but a chain of events that combined. Putting all the blame on one motorist, or the rugby club, would be too simple. Blaming it on speed would be ridiculous.
 
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