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The Manual

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lyndhurst25

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Quite a few posts in this section of the forum seem to be answered by referring to "The Manual". AFAIK the National Fares Manual(s) were last published in paper book form back in 2008.

What is the current situation for (a) railway staff and (b) passengers who need to look up fares, routes, etc? I know that it is possible to buy the Avantix Traveller CD but that only contains basic fares information and not information on rovers, international journeys, complex ticket restrictions, etc.

I seem to remember that PDFs of parts of the NFM (e.g Section D - Shipping Links) were once available for download from ATOC / National Rail, but I can't seem to find them now.

Is the NFM kept up to date? How do railway staff view it? How can members of the public get access to the information?
 
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ralphchadkirk

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The Manual is the retail manual for staff. It has been known to contain information which is different to passenger material, but it should not be like that.
 

Paul Kelly

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Although I hear that ATOC are considering making "The Manual" public as a nod to the open data agenda promoted by the goverment. This would be a good thing.
 

wintonian

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Although I hear that ATOC are considering making "The Manual" public as a nod to the open data agenda promoted by the goverment. This would be a good thing.

I would be very supportive of this.

There is nothing to stop ticket office staff or customer contact centres from providing print outs relevant to the passengers querry although I am not sure if parts of the manual are restricted.

As an example I wrote sometime ago to SWT about Calais tickets and they responded by providing a print out from the manual which I did not request in my letter.
 

IainH

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Through the National Rail website.

Well, but surely not in its entirety, or as logically structured, judging by the number of times quotes from the manual pop up here to resolve issues? And also, again based on quotes here, sometimes the manual and national rail conflict, raising that interesting legal issue that if you don't disclose the T's & C's fully they can't apply.
 

mallard

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Frankly, the fact that rail staff enforce rules from "The Manual", that are either not publically published, published unclearly or even conflict with public information should be illegal. (In fact, it probably is, but it never comes to court.)

It's an absolute disgrace that it both exists and isn't public already.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . and they responded by providing a print out from the manual which I did not request in my letter.
And since then, have you ever been able to trace the relevant wording for yourself elsewhere?

(I'm trying to find out if there was a relevant distinction published in the Manual which was not available to you while you were taking all reasonable care and attention before buying a ticket)
 

hairyhandedfool

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....What is the current situation for (a) railway staff....

Ticket office staff have direct access, I'm not certain about RPIs and guards, but I think they have access through control and should have some form of access at signing on points.

....and (b) passengers who need to look up fares, routes, etc?....

There are plenty of websites and telesales numbers for fares information and basic routeing, Passengers can also ask at ticket offices.

....Is the NFM kept up to date? How do railway staff view it? How can members of the public get access to the information?

The Manual has fares data updated whenever the fares are changed (three times a year) and updates for anything else can be made once a week. Ticket office staff have direct access from their ticket machines. Passengers can ask for the information over the phone, by email or face to face at the ticket office. Some data is available to view online through NRES or similar websites.
 

wintonian

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And since then, have you ever been able to trace the relevant wording for yourself elsewhere?

(I'm trying to find out if there was a relevant distinction published in the Manual which was not available to you while you were taking all reasonable care and attention before buying a ticket)

I haven't been able ascertain its existence with out informing staff of its existence first. :roll:
 

Ferret

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Ticket office staff have direct access, I'm not certain about RPIs and guards, but I think they have access through control and should have some form of access at signing on points.



There are plenty of websites and telesales numbers for fares information and basic routeing, Passengers can also ask at ticket offices.



The Manual has fares data updated whenever the fares are changed (three times a year) and updates for anything else can be made once a week. Ticket office staff have direct access from their ticket machines. Passengers can ask for the information over the phone, by email or face to face at the ticket office. Some data is available to view online through NRES or similar websites.

If I could remember the login, I'd have access to the online Manual, and all Guards do have that login somewhere. Tbh, I think it should be made available to all - could it not be requested under the Freedom of Information Act????
 

wintonian

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If I could remember the login, I'd have access to the online Manual, and all Guards do have that login somewhere. Tbh, I think it should be made available to all - could it not be requested under the Freedom of Information Act????

I'd like to see them try the commercially sensitive line.

The request was included in a more wide ranging FOI and I think EC possibly missed the explicit request for "Fare and ticketing manuals provided by ATOC or East Coast".

To correct that statement I have just re-read the reply:

In addition to the above list of training documents, we also have is a section entitled ‘Useful Links’
within Retail Net that staff are trained to access. These are links to websites that ticket office staff
may find useful including links to websites hosting guides for some of the computer systems used
within our Ticket Offices. Although we are unable to disclose the contents of documents from these
third party sites we can confirm what these links are and their purpose:


• Booking horizon – this is a link to a National Rail Enquiries (NRE) site that details, by individual
train operator, how far in advance tickets can be purchased;
• Live Train Times – this is a link to the front page of our website www.eastcoast.co.uk where
there is a further link to obtain live train running information by individual station;
• NLC Finder – this is a link to the section of the ATOC ‘Manual’ used to access detailed fares and
ticketing information;
• NRE Live Departure Boards – this is a link to the section of the NRE website where real-time
train running information is displayed;
• Rail Information Online – this link will shortly be removed as it details the same information as
NRE Knowledgebase (detailed below);
The Manual – this is a link to the section of the ATOC website where the ATOC fares manual is
stored. We no longer obtain this document as a hard copy;

• Transport Direct – this is a link to the Transport Direct website. This website provides a
journey planning facility that can identify available routes, by transport type, between
destinations;
• Tribute Support – this is a link to the Tribute website containing useful information and user
guides. The Tribute computer system is used for selling tickets or making reservations and is
used on the terminals in ticket offices as well as the ticket machines used by Train Guards onboard
our trains;
• Walk it – this is a link to the ‘Walk-it’ website. Walk-it is an urban route planner used to
identify walking routes;
• West Yorkshire Metro – this is a link to the West Yorkshire Metro website;
• East Coast – this is a link to our website www.eastcoast.co.uk;
• Fast ticket status – this is a link to a password protected computer system used to identify the
current performance of fast ticket machines;
• National Rail – this is a link to the NRE website;
• NRE Knowledgebase – this is a link to the industry database providing station facilities
information. This database is displayed on the NRE website;
• NRS – this is a password protected computer system used to make train seat reservations;
• South Yorkshire PTE – this is a link to the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive
website;
• Traintaxi – this is a link to a national website that acts as a guide to which taxis serve each
train, tram, metro and underground stations;
• Transport for London – this is a link to the Transport for London website;
• Tyne and Wear Metro – this is a link to the Tyne and Wear Metro website; and
• ‘Just the ticket’ – this is a link to an area of the ATOC website where the training resource ‘Just
the Ticket’ is stored. This resource is available to all members of ATOC and can be used to
improve the knowledge and understanding of all staff who sell train tickets. Although this
resource is not within the ‘Useful Links’ section, it is accessed through Retail Net.

Anyway the full response is here in PDF format.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Tbh, I think it should be made available to all - could it not be requested under the Freedom of Information Act????
I agree that if it contains ANY information which assists a pasenger in choosing the correct ticket, most useful service, understanding their obligations and those of the Operators etc. etc. then not only do I agree with you, but believe that to withold the information is probably somewhere on a spectrum ranging from misrepresentation, through deceipt to (potentially) fraud.
But that's not really my concern - all I am worried about is that we are all, to some extent or another, working in the dark. And that doesn't help anyone. There's simply no need to keep rules and guidance hidden from staff and passengers alike - its just an anachronism which hinders us all and increases the risk of a mistake.

An FOI request if worded correctly might help, but really - it shouldn't take that much effort to display the full T&Cs and procedures of such an every-day and widespread activity as travelling by train.
 

mallard

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I've still yet to hear any compelling argument for the existence of "The Manual" anyway. Either it contains only information that is publicly published anyway and therefore useless (except maybe as a single collection of disparate information) or the information it contains should be publicly published as it relates to the products sold the public.

Saying that telesales or ticket office staff can answer any queries doesn't quite cut it. Without the document, passengers don't know what questions to even ask. I don't think "Can you read me the complete manual please?" will go down very well.

It's no different to the RG really. That's public, so why not the manual?
 

bnm

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I agree that if it contains ANY information which assists a pasenger in choosing the correct ticket, most useful service, understanding their obligations and those of the Operators etc. etc. then not only do I agree with you, but believe that to withold the information is probably somewhere on a spectrum ranging from misrepresentation, through deceipt to (potentially) fraud.
But that's not really my concern - all I am worried about is that we are all, to some extent or another, working in the dark. And that doesn't help anyone. There's simply no need to keep rules and guidance hidden from staff and passengers alike - its just an anachronism which hinders us all and increases the risk of a mistake.

An FOI request if worded correctly might help, but really - it shouldn't take that much effort to display the full T&Cs and procedures of such an every-day and widespread activity as travelling by train.

Are ATOC obliged to comply with a FoI request? I thought they weren't.

There are plenty of websites and telesales numbers for fares information and basic routeing, Passengers can also ask at ticket offices.

That's all well and good if the information tallies with that available to rail staff. It doesn't always.

Take the recent changes to the 'railway day' for example. NRE, both the website and by phone, are still staying that the railway day ends at 0230. A person wishing to travel in an early hours, say on a return portion of a CDR on the 0238 from Maidenhead - Paddington, may be wrongly informed that the ticket they hold is not valid, and be advised to buy a new one.
 

wintonian

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Are ATOC obliged to comply with a FoI request? I thought they weren't.

No but if enough people request the information from them then they might put it onto DVD and sell it through the TSO! ;)
 

sheff1

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Passengers can also ask at ticket offices.

As I have said previously, yes you can ask but would you get the correct answer.

Before the Routeing Guide appeared online, staff at Sheffield station told me point blank that no such Guide existed.
 

wintonian

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As I have said previously, yes you can ask but would you get the correct answer.

Before the Routeing Guide appeared online, staff at Sheffield station told me point blank that no such Guide existed.

I normally just get ignored when mentioning it, I'm obviously missing a trick if you actually get an answer!
 

barrykas

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No but if enough people request the information from them then they might put it onto DVD and sell it through the TSO! ;)

Given The Manual (excluding fares) is updated on a weekly basis, that's not exactly practical...

Cheers,

Barry
 

AlterEgo

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Sorry to drop a bomb here, but I don't understand why a staff training and reference resource needs to be public. I don't see BA's fares and revenue manual being made public, nor the manuals of any bus companies.

I'm sure most regular, Joe Public passengers would just prefer if National Rail Enquiries was updated properly - after all, NRES is accessible to the public, and is designed to be read by the uninitiated. The Manual isn't.
 

cuccir

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Sorry to drop a bomb here, but I don't understand why a staff training and reference resource needs to be public. I don't see BA's fares and revenue manual being made public, nor the manuals of any bus companies.

I'm sure most regular, Joe Public passengers would just prefer if National Rail Enquiries was updated properly - after all, NRES is accessible to the public, and is designed to be read by the uninitiated. The Manual isn't.

I think the issue is that - and we've seen cases of it on here- information in The Manual appears to have at times directly contradicted the T&Cs information on tickets available to the general public, and still does for example with regards to Off-Peak ticket T&Cs. It has contained information about validity that the public could not access, and has provided various other forms of clarification on ticket use.

Ideally, yes, NRES should just be updated, and The Manual should be a training document with further clarification, examples etc. But that's not the current situation.
 

AlterEgo

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NRES is definitive though - the Manual isn't. NRES (however inaccurate) always overrides the Manual by default, as it's the source of information available to the passenger.

Honestly, I think everyone's efforts would be better concentrated on ensuring NRES actually displays the correct information. How hard can that be? (OK, don't answer that!)
 

All Line Rover

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NRES is definitive though - the Manual isn't. NRES (however inaccurate) always overrides the Manual by default, as it's the source of information available to the passenger.

Honestly, I think everyone's efforts would be better concentrated on ensuring NRES actually displays the correct information. How hard can that be? (OK, don't answer that!)

Yes, you are quite correct. Since NRE is definitive, it doesn't matter what The Manual says! ATOC should be forced to change The Manual when it contradicts NRE, as, indeed, has happened once or twice. ;)

The problem comes when The Manual touches on issues NRE makes no mention of - e.g. Virgin's relaxation of Peak restrictions for tickets accompanied with a Railcard. I genuinely don't see what problems there are with making The Manual publicly available. Staff will do the same as now, but members of the public will be better informed.

And with regards to "how hard can it be" to ensure that NRE displays the correct information, actually it is very easy! When I had reason for complaint when NRE displayed incorrect information about the 7 Day All Line Rover, I gave ATOC a call and NRE was updated the next day!

 

AlterEgo

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Making the Manual public will benefit the 2% of customers who know how to navigate it and interpret it. It contains a lot of technical jargon and isn't written with the intention of having uninitiated member of the public read it. It will also then "trump" NRES to the detriment of the regular passenger, who will have taken their information from there...

NRES is written with the intention of being read by, say, Doris Jones of 55 Acacia Avenue. It explains things simply and all that needs to happen is to ensure it's up to date, and is comprehensive!
 

All Line Rover

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So the pressure should be on making sure the passenger oriented resource is correct and up to date. Not for a staff manual full of technical terms to be made available as an alternative.

I completely see your point - it is definitely neccessary for a clear, concise, factually correct and up to date information resource to be available which the average passenger can understand.

But, at the same time, I don't see what issues ATOC have with making The Manual publicly available, as it will only be referred to by the 2% of people who understand the jargon (i.e. us)! Is there some secret stuff in the manual that be must "classified" and would make the railways topple over if the public can access it?! :roll:

The Manual would not be an "alternative" if it was made publicly available. It would be a complement, and I don't see any problems with that. It would be just like the Routeing Guide and Avantix Traveller, which are complements to NRE and online journey planners. Does most of the public access these resources? No. But the minority who do find them to be very useful.
 

snail

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I don't see what issues ATOC have with making The Manual publicly available, as it will only be referred to by the 2% of people who understand the jargon (i.e. us)! Is there some secret stuff in the manual that be must "classified" and would make the railways topple over if the public can access it?
The closest equivalent to this discussion I can think of are the HMRC Manuals. These are freely available on the web with a very small number of redacted paragraphs where information should be restricted. I can see no reason why a similar approach shouldn't be taken by 'National Rail'. If individual TOCs want to withhold commercially sensitive info that's fine.
 

Smethwickian

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Lots of useful information which used to be in the printed editions of the National Fares Manual and Rail-Links Manual seems to have disappeared from public view since they ceased to be sold and is definitely not on nationalrail.co.uk

For example, do many of the through bus-rail fares (not PlusBus) which used to be in the Rail-Links Manual three or four years ago still operate, for example? If they do, most train operators appear determined to keep them a secret.

If that's the kind of stuff that's now in The Manual, then why not publish it?
 

RJ

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Ticket office staff have direct access, I'm not certain about RPIs and guards, but I think they have access through control and should have some form of access at signing on points.

As well as plenty of non-railway staff who are using logins for companies they don't work for.

A concept that many people are clearly failing to grasp on here is that what is in The Manual is not the be all and end all. Why are people demanding access to a resource that they don't even know the purpose of? Perhaps to tell staff how to do their job, when those staff may well be working to rule from their own TOC? Local TOC instructions take precedence and indeed, retail jobs such as ticket selling can be done without ever needing to access it. There are also instructions on there for staff which would assist fare evaders in playing the system - presumably those pressing for open access are in support of this?
 
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