Scottish independence

[MidnightFlyer]

Inspired by another member's signature, quite simply do you think Scotland should gain full independence from Great Britain (that Mr Salmond so craves)?

I'm on the fence I suppose - If it is truly what people want then why should we deny them? Also, it dramatically reduces Labour's chances of ever forming a majority government again.

On the other hand, could its economy support itself? After the masses of North Sea oil, what else is there? Further to that, I am a Unionist, so would prefer to stick together.

Anyone else?

 

[90019]

Inspired by another member's signature, quite simply do you think Scotland should gain full independence from Great Britain?

No.

I suppose that some increased powers for the Scottish Government would be nice (though I'm not too sure what), but I don't really see much point in full on independance, and I'm not convinced there's that much to be gained from it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd love Scotland to go away and do it's own thing, seems like a lot of my tax pounds get vacuumed up by kilt-wearers.



In all seriousness though I think it'd be hilarious. The economy would cave in after ten years...

 

[WestCoast]

It already feels like the Disjointed Kingdom, on certain major policies Scotland seems to deviate so far from England, NI and Wales. They are only exercising their powers, of course, however from an English residents point of view Scotland may as well be independent already...

 

[chris89]

I am completely against the whole barmy/ crazy idea on behalf of Alec Salmond (My own view)

Just for me seems a vote idea overal, a majority of scots (well the ones i've spoken to) are against the whole idea.

If one looks on the less then desirable news paper sites (no offence if anyone on here goes on them) Seems part and part want it, throwing up the general moan about the North Sea oil.

Even if there was ever a referendem wouldn't it need the whole of the United Kingdom to vote on it?

Chris

 

[WestCoast]

ven if there was ever a referendem wouldn't it need the whole of the United Kingdom to vote on it?

The whole of the UK was not consulted on devolution, which makes me think it wouldn't be necessary. I say the Scottish people should be asked in any case, there is no harm in holding a referendum, as long as appropriate requirements for turnout e.t.c are set.

I'd be interested in what the status of an independent Scotland would be. A Republic? Currency? Relationship with the EU?

 

[chris89]

The whole of the UK was not consulted on devolution, which makes me think it wouldn't be necessary. I say the Scottish people should be asked in any case, there is no harm in holding a referendum, as long as appropriate requirements for turnout e.t.c are set.

Exactly no harm at all. But other way, thats been annouced is Devolution Max instead.

Chris

 

[SS4]

I think all referenda are doomed unless the media is forced by law to report fairly, objectively and from a neutral point of view based solely on available fact.
Holyrood does not have the power to declare independence although it would be very difficult for Westminster to deny it if a clear majority wished for it.

I am not sure on the subject since I've not heard much fact only conjecture and emotional arguments although I feel Scots are pretty shrewd and would vote for max devolution since the costs associated with independence would not apply (largely border protection). I'd be very interested in some figures though

 

[Old Timer]

Bring Scottish Devolution on asap, as far as I am concerned.

Then we can get back to English Parliamentary matters being decided by ENGLISH MPs instead of having contentious Legislation forced through by Scottish MPs who refused to vote yes for themselves in Scotland.

WE can also then go back to permanent BST rather than being held back at the ankles because a couple of Scotsmen may have to go to work in the dark :roll:

The Scots can also then decide which Country they want to befriend as the majority clearly hate the English - as aptly demonstrated by Andy Murray in 2006 when he stated he would support "anyone but England" - source Scottish Daily Record. He also wore a Paragauy shirt when they played England.

In this hatred of England and all things English he is not alone but rather represents the majority I feel. The remainder rather shrewdly realise the large amounts of money that they get per head in proportion and remain somewhat more "discreet".

 

[WestCoast]

I think all referenda are doomed unless the media is forced by law to report fairly, objectively and from a neutral point of view based solely on available fact.

Good point. I can imagine certain groups in the media going into spin overdrive if an EU referendum was even considered for the UK. Same would apply to an independent Scotland. People are often told how to think and that is direct threat to democracy in my opinion.

 

[Aictos]

No because despite the wishes of some who've actually got some independence though devolution, the UK is stronger as a union then as 4 separate countries.

As a example, should Scotland be granted full independence why not ask the Irish in Northern Ireland if they too want full independence from the UK and instead be merged with the Republic of Ireland.

This is why despite my views on the USSR why they were powerful during the Cold War.

 

[CarterUSM]

Bring Scottish Devolution on asap, as far as I am concerned.

Then we can get back to English Parliamentary matters being decided by ENGLISH MPs instead of having contentious Legislation forced through by Scottish MPs who refused to vote yes for themselves in Scotland.

The Scots can then also decide who they want to befriend as the majority clearly hate the English - as aptly demonstrated by Andy Murray in 2006 when he stated he would support "anyone but England" - source Scottish Daily Record. He also wore a Paragauy shirt when they played England. IN this hatred of England and all things English he is not alone but rather represents the majority I feel. The remainder rather shrewdly realise the large amounts of money that they get per head in proportion and remain somewhat more "discreet".

Steady on Old Timer, one tennis player does not a majority make. I refute your allegation profusely , there's certainly rivalry on the sports field, but I wouldn't base your opinion on 90 minute patriots.

 

[chris89]

The Scots can also then decide which Country they want to befriend as the majority clearly hate the English - as aptly demonstrated by Andy Murray in 2006 when he stated he would support "anyone but England" - source Scottish Daily Record. He also wore a Paragauy shirt when they played England.

In this hatred of England and all things English he is not alone but rather represents the majority I feel. The remainder rather shrewdly realise the large amounts of money that they get per head in proportion and remain somewhat more "discreet".

The whole Anyone But England shirts/ campaign is supposed to be a bit of fun etc, but some do take it to far sadly. The English rugby fans supported Wales when we went out but can't imagine the Scots would do that.

No because despite the wishes of some who've actually got some independence though devolution, the UK is stronger as a union then as 4 separate countries.

As a example, should Scotland be granted full independence why not ask the Irish in Northern Ireland if they too want full independence from the UK and instead be merged with the Republic of Ireland.

This is why despite my views on the USSR why they were powerful during the Cold War.

Agree on the UK being stronger together then as separate different countries. Also is one of the many reasons the USSR was powerful during the Cold War.

Chris

 

[Old Timer]

Steady on Old Timer, one tennis player does not a majority make. I refute your allegation profusely , there's certainly rivalry on the sports field, but I wouldn't base your opinion on 90 minute patriots.

Oh I agree with you, but I also know that you will know its not a 90-minute thing at all. There is a large contingent of the Scots who hate the English. Demands for Scottish Devolution, and the very fact we are discussing it proves the point surely ?

I have worked with many Scots who very clearly make their views known - they never took kindly to being invited to go home if they hated England so much mind

 

[WestCoast]

Half of my family are Scottish, and I am fond of the nation and its people (minus neds e.t.c). However, it's the Scottish Government's polices that have annoyed me. Take the issue of tuition fees (I know it's been mentioned 100 times before but anyway) in that a permanent resident of 3 years beforehand in Scotland can attend fee-free, and also an EU citizen, but not those from other parts of the UK. Surely we are EU citizens too?

It just seems like blatant discrimination to me.

 

[SS4]

Half of my family are Scottish, and I am fond of the nation and its people (minus neds e.t.c). However, it's the Scottish Government's polices that have annoyed me. Take the issue of tuition fees (I know it's been mentioned 100 times before but anyway) in that a resident in Scotland can attend fee-free, and also an EU citizen, but not those from other parts of the UK. Surely we are EU citizens too?

Has anyone challenged that though? Perhaps it's one of those rulings that it is hoped everyone will acquiesce in.

Scotland's policies have, from what I've noticed, done a lot more to improve the lives of your average Scottish man/woman or child (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!). What intrigues me is whether or not this is based on what Holyrood gets from Westminster or whether Holyrood have spent more wisely than Westminster.

Surely full independence is not needed to address the West Lothian question though?

 

[WestCoast]

Surely full independence is not needed to address the West Lothian question though?

I'd like to see an English parliament, to get a fair deal for residents of England (regardless of nationality).

I am not doubting that devolution has had a positive impact on the lives of the residents of Scotland, but I don't think that is the issue here.

 

[Old Timer]

Agree on the UK being stronger together then as separate different countries. Also is one of the many reasons the USSR was powerful during the Cold War.Chris

Only to a degree.

The USSR effectively "moulded" a whole series of Countries who did not like the Russians particularly, and in particular the Russians were nver fully trusting of the East Germans, and had as many people spying on them internally as they had anywhere. The general feeling was that the East Germans in a war would very likely surrender or cross-sides to the West. The Russians again had little time for the Polish who they never trusted, and the Baltic States took up a lot of miltary effort for similar reasons.

This was one of the reasons that once the Berlin Wall fell, it was only a matter of time before the USSR collapsed. A reconstituted USSR would be far more effectual in terms of capital expended on military matters.

 

[CarterUSM]

Oh I agree with you, but I also know that you will know its not a 90-minute thing at all. There is a large contingent of the Scots who hate the English. Demands for Scottish Devolution, and the very fact we are discussing it proves the point surely ?

I have worked with many Scots who very clearly make their views known - they never took kindly to being invited to go home if they hated England so much mind

I do consider it a mainly 90 minute patriot thing, I'm of the opinion that the hate was perhaps more widespread some years ago. But outside of football, and perhaps some smarmy SNP members, I just can't see much of it.
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Surely full independence is not needed to address the West Lothian question though?

For whom though, England?

You're right though, i'm just not sure there is the will for it in Westminister.

 

[SS4]

I'd like to see an English parliament, to get a fair deal for residents of England (regardless of nationality).

I am not doubting that devolution has had a positive impact on the lives of the residents of Scotland, but I don't think that is the issue here.

A fair deal will need to overhaul the voting system though which is one thing we can learn from Scotland!

Does anyone know how much subsidy Scotland gets and/or how much she receives from Westminster? I was just wondering because if Scotland pays more than she receives if she gains independence she can continue to afford their current policies (I swear it makes sense in my head!)
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For whom though, England?

You're right though, i'm just not sure there is the will for it in Westminister.

That was poorly worded . I meant the West Lothian question could be addressed independently (excuse the pun) of an independence motion for Scotland.

 

[Old Timer]

I do consider it a mainly 90 minute patriot thing, I'm of the opinion that the hate was perhaps more widespread some years ago. But outside of football, and perhaps some smarmy SNP members, I just can't see much of it.
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For whom though, England?

You're right though, i'm just not sure there is the will for it in Westminister.

In the 1979 Devolution referendum 52% of Scots voted yes.

 

[WestCoast]

A fair deal will need to overhaul the voting system though which is one thing we can learn from Scotland!

The suggestion of more MPs for an English parliament joining the system won't be popular but it's an interesting suggestion for the long-term in my opinion. Representatives elected using a proportional system and it could be based in Birmingham or Manchester.

It would have to be examined closely, with careful scrutiny of the benefits and costs.

 

[Old Timer]

....Does anyone know how much subsidy Scotland gets and/or how much she receives from Westminster? I was just wondering because if Scotland pays more than she receives if she gains independence she can continue to afford their current policies (I swear it makes sense in my head!).....

The latest Treasury figures show that state spending in Scotland averaged £10,212 per head last year - £1,624 more than in England, where public spending is £8,588 per head.

As for the West Lothian question only Devolution with separate independent Parliaments will remove the situation whereby Scottish MPs can influence Legislation which does not affect them and for which they are completely electorally unanswerable to the electorate over whose Legislation they are voting.

 

[CarterUSM]

In the 1979 Devolution referendum 52% of Scots voted yes.

52% of those who voted of course. Not everyone in Scotland is Scots either of course, but I digress! I really don't see what there is to gain from independence, we're all stronger together.

 

[SS4]

The latest Treasury figures show that state spending in Scotland averaged £10,212 per head last year - £1,624 more than in England, where public spending is £8,588 per head.

As for the West Lothian question only Devolution with separate independent Parliaments will remove the situation whereby Scottish MPs can influence Legislation which does not affect them and for which they are completely electorally unanswerable to the electorate over whose Legislation they are voting.

Thanks for the figures

 

[Giugiaro]

For an outsider like me, Scotland independence is to me the same thing has tearing someone's arm from his body. I think of Great Britain has one country and each of its countries has regions. I prefer to call you British instead of English or Scottish and I would be very proud of being called more British than English, if I were one.

Although this is my opinion, I can be to less informed on the subject to actually have an meaningful position for the "real debaters". Things on Spain are much more unstable between Madrid and the Basque Country:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Basque_Country,_not_Spain.jpg

Actually, Spain is like a "Spanish United Kingdom", but all the autonomous communities are regions and are represented has Spain whenever international event they participate.

Another region with "independence ideas" from Madrid is Galicia. Although much more peaceful and with not much seriousness, they kind of dislike the fact of actually being forced to adopt the Castilian language instead of their Galician has mother tongue. They even sympathize more with the Northern Portuguese rather than general Spanish, even playing with it, saying that they would be happier if Galicia would be a Portuguese region (An idea I think absurd given the actual Portuguese economical and financial condition).


That's much I can say. We do also have problems with Lisbon, although that's a different kind of story.

 

[scotsman]

Absolutely, categorically not.

The country was slowly coming round to the idea that SNP are fairly good at governing, but only because the SNP played consensus politics during the last term while the other parties expected them to grind to a halt. Now, with a majority behind them, the policy going through will be much more contentious (have a look at the minimum pricing bill) and much more divisive.

Salmond will try and keep it neutral as possible, but his main focus is now spinning independence to the 10% who don't know how they'll vote yet.

It is very much the Alex Salmond show at the moment, Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories have just, or are about to, replace their leaders. Salmond pulls through this as a strong leader, a single constant in Scottish politics. As long as he leads the SNP, he has a good chance of getting what he wants. However, if he goes - the party is stuffed. The SNP's 'front bench' is a bumbling array of barely known fanatics who tend to fit the stereotype of a Scottish nationalist.

It's a shame, because, with the right leadership in certain quarters, Salmond could be exposed as the arrogant moron that he is. That, if anything, is why the Scottish Labour leadership election should be restricted to MSPs.

 

[Ivo]

I don't agree with the idea of Scottish independence. The conomy is the obvious one; both sides of the border are dependent on each other in some many ways (even if you ignore the controversial issue of taxes). I do believe that Scotland could survive, but it could be argued that it is too centralised, with almost everything of note in one of two cities. Compare that to England (OK, it's bigger, but still), where even places the size of Blackpool are the home of national offices, although admittedly I forget what exactly! the other issue though is that if Scotland becomes independent, would Wales want to follow suit (compare Wales to Scotland regarding my point about centralisation - quite a few "national" institutions are based away from Cardiff (and Swansea/Newport)? Heck, would Cornwall want to follow suit?

Also, it dramatically reduces Labour's chances of ever forming a majority government again.

Having said all the above, reading this does make me wonder if it would be for the best...

 

[harz99]

52% of those who voted of course. Not everyone in Scotland is Scots either of course, but I digress! I really don't see what there is to gain from independence, we're all stronger together.

Exactly; there are many English, Northern Irish, Irish, other European and probably even some Welsh born people settled and registered to vote in Scotland.

For the SNP to keep talking as though any referendum is for the Scottish people to decide the fate/future of Scotland is a nonsense, unless of course Salmond and co. intend only Scottish born citizens to get the vote.

In fact, even though the SNP hold a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament, they were elected by a minority of the eligible electorate, many of whom were that bored of politics they simply didn't bother to vote at all. So in truth the SNP do not speak for the people of Scotland, just their voters.

 

[Butts]

If there is a vote on Independence / Devolution Max et al it will be decided by people registered to Vote in Scotland regardless of where they were born.

There are half a Million English Born residents and plenty more from Wales and Ireland.

Scottish born people registered to vote and living in other parts of the UK will quite rightly not get a vote.

This is a matter for the Scottish Electorate.

The vote will be held in 2014 and the age for participation reduced to 16 (more young people in favour).

Anyone who has to ask why 2014 - checkout what happened 700 years before

The result - my gut instinct is -what will win the 2.30 at Fontwell