What will happen to the Pacers?

[I like Class 153]

What will happen to some of the 142/143/144 units when some of get replaced by ex London Overground and London Midland?,

If they go to private railways where will they go to?

 

[pemma]

No Pacers are being withdrawn from National Rail service.

The LO and LM 150s are providing long overdue extra capacity, not replacing existing units.

In the case of the FGW 142s they are going back to Northern to provide extra capacity there but FGW are getting enough extra 150s to be able to replace all the 142s as well as providing extra capacity.

In the case of Northern a lot of the 150s are replacing existing units which are leaving Northern: the 3 x 180s and some 156s that are being cascaded to EMT for extra capacity.

The extra capacity provided by the cascades is a small portion of the actual extra capacity needed on the network so Pacers will unfortunately be in regular National Rail service for a good few years yet.

 

[I like Class 153]

No Pacers are being withdrawn from National Rail service.

The LO and LM 150s are providing long overdue extra capacity, not replacing existing units.

In the case of the FGW 142s they are going back to Northern to provide extra capacity there but FGW are getting enough extra 150s to be able to replace all the 142s as well as providing extra capacity.

In the case of Northern a lot of the 150s are replacing existing units which are leaving Northern: the 3 x 180s and some 156s that are being cascaded to EMT for extra capacity.

The extra capacity provided by the cascades is a small portion of the actual extra capacity needed on the network so Pacers will unfortunately be in regular National Rail service for a good few years yet.

Well I thought that the 142/143/144 were going to be sold to private railways, sold aboard or scrapped

 

[pemma]

Well I thought that the 142/143/144 were going to be sold to private railways, sold aboard or scrapped

That what happens in dreams. If you look at any DfT or Network Rail document or press release mentioning Pacers you won't find a planned withdrawal date. Given that there are around 130 Pacers in service, I don't know how you thought the Class 150 cascades could have led to withdrawals of all 3 classes.

The only Pacers that have been withdrawn are the 141s and written off units from accidents. 12 were withdrawn for a short period after being replaced by cascaded Sprinters. However, they were put back in to service with FGW and most of them are now back with Northern.

 

[Chris125]

Pacers will be around for a long time yet, probably into the 2020's despite the disability regulations - either with a derogation or to strengthen services formed of 150's/156's etc. CP5/6 electrification should eventually kill them off however.

Chris

 

[tbtc]

We really need to have one big "Pacer" thread, to avoid having the same arguments in different ones on a regular basis...

 

[Oswyntail]

I think it's rather appropriate to have a huge number of little ones dotted around all over the place, annoying everyone but just about getting the job done.
Threads, that is.

 

[pemma]

I think it's rather appropriate to have a huge number of little ones dotted around all over the place, annoying everyone but just about getting the job done.
Threads, that is.

A few little Pacers here, there and everywhere* might do the job better. (Pacers are little if you take the carriage length.)

* I mean around the whole country.

 

[RobShipway]

I thought that some of the pacers would be withdrawn when the electrification projects in some areas of the country are complete by 2020, as some of them I thought would be replaced by the cascading of Class 319's once Thameslink got their new stock???

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought that some of the pacers would be withdrawn when the electrification projects in some areas of the country are complete by 2020, as some of them I thought would be replaced by the cascading of Class 319's once Thameslink got their new stock???

Of the Great Western and North West electrification programmes currently signed off, the only Pacers that are likely to be replaced will be FGWs' eight 143s (Which could go to ATW to consolidate the 143 fleet in one place) assuming that FGWs' West Country and Bristol services gain extra stock such as displaced Network Turbos, and/or potentially ATWs' small number of 142s (Which could end up being dumped on Northern to join the rest of the 142s) if there is a rejig of 150s between FGW and ATW.

 

[pemma]

I thought that some of the pacers would be withdrawn when the electrification projects in some areas of the country are complete by 2020, as some of them I thought would be replaced by the cascading of Class 319's once Thameslink got their new stock???

And the majority of the Pacers that are directly and indirectly replaced by the Thameslink cascade will be redeployed to strengthen overcrowded services. Even if Northern do manage to release, say 10, it could be that another operator like EMT would want them to replace smaller 153s.*

Network Rail have proposed to the government that accelerated electrification schemes for the Valley Lines and North TPE between 2014 and 2019 would be an effective way of replacing some of the Pacers. If the government approves funding for that then electrification may replace some Pacers. This would involve a large order of new EMUs as well to replace Pacers.

* Also note Porterbrook, looking at how DDA modifications can be made to Sprinter stock that is would non-economically viable to make 153s DDA compliant in their current form. So, at some point it's likely they'll be reformed in to 155s, turned in to 156 centre cars or maybe even form 153/150 hybrids like FGW had.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that some of the pacers would be withdrawn when the electrification projects in some areas of the country are complete by 2020...

Almost certainly, but the original question is about the effects of the transfer of 150s from LM and LO, ie this month!

 

[table38]

If/when they do withdraw the 142s, I think for a laugh they should follow the example at Manchester Victoria and bury a cab front end under every mainline station in the UK.

Then in thousands of years time when archaeologists discover them, they will freak out and think it was some sort of pagan ritual and that we all worshipped the noble pacer.

Or maybe we could just play conkers with them like Clarkson did with caravans...

 

[Lampshade]

Or maybe we could just play conkers with them like Clarkson did with caravans...

Personally I'd put some HST engines in them, hook them up to remote control and go Pacer jousting

 

[Nym]

If/when they do withdraw the 142s, I think for a laugh they should follow the example at Manchester Victoria and bury a cab front end under every mainline station in the UK.

Then in thousands of years time when archaeologists discover them, they will freak out and think it was some sort of pagan ritual and that we all worshipped the noble pacer.

Or maybe we could just play conkers with them like Clarkson did with caravans...

Like there aren't enough things we do that will scare archeologists of the future?

 

[IanXC]

If/when they do withdraw the 142s, I think for a laugh they should follow the example at Manchester Victoria and bury a cab front end under every mainline station in the UK.

Then in thousands of years time when archaeologists discover them, they will freak out and think it was some sort of pagan ritual and that we all worshipped the noble pacer.

Or maybe we could just play conkers with them like Clarkson did with caravans...

I've heard that this cab may be on the move! To preservation...

 

[pemma]

Almost certainly, but the original question is about the effects of the transfer of 150s from LM and LO, ie this month!

Not almost certainly. The current approved electrification projects will not see more than a few units withdrawn and if passenger numbers continue to grow, as expected, they will all finish up remaining in service. IF North TPE and Valley Lines electrification gets approved then we will start seeing Pacers withdrawn by electrification for real. For this to happen the government needs to release more transport funds while Villers is claiming almost all the money has been spent in London, so there's nothing left.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We really need to have one big "Pacer" thread, to avoid having the same arguments in different ones on a regular basis...

In this, you are echoing my appeal for a Pacer "super-thread" from a few months ago, which others have made reference to from time to time, without the usual "forum time-limit" upon it, as this "Pacer storyline" will be running for some years yet. We have had "Pacer" threads on the NR General Discussion forum, the Traction and Rolling Stock forum....and recently, even on the Infrastructure forum (in which I suppose their longevity would seem to make them "part of the furniture").

 

[swt_passenger]

Not almost certainly. The current approved electrification projects will not see more than a few units withdrawn ...

The person I was replying to had used the term 'some units'. What's the real difference between that and 'a few units'?

I made no comment whatsoever about numbers...

 

[pemma]

The person I was replying to had used the term 'some units'. What's the real difference between that and 'a few units'?

I made no comment whatsoever about numbers...

You used the word 'certainly' when talking about Pacer withdrawals. There are no certain plans to withdraw even a single Pacer.

There might be a very small number withdrawn as a result of the Thameslink cascade but DfT haven't stated, for instance, 10 Pacers will be withdrawn. Given Pacers are bigger than 153s any that become surplus to requirements with Northern and FGW could still be utilised elsewhere, which I imagine is why the government hasn't guaranteed any Pacers being scrapped.

There will be a number of Pacers withdrawn if Valley Lines and North TPE electrification gets government approval, but with no approval for funding given again it's not a certainty.

 

[swt_passenger]

You used the word 'certainly' when talking about Pacer withdrawals. There are no certain plans to withdraw even a single Pacer.

No I used the expression 'almost certainly'.

Just stop arguing for no reason will you?

 

[pemma]

No I used the expression 'almost certainly'.

OK I missed off the word 'almost' but you did quote my earlier post out of context.

I said:

"Not almost certainly. The current approved electrification projects will not see more than a few units withdrawn and if passenger numbers continue to grow, as expected, they will all finish up remaining in service."

You quoted up to the word 'withdrawn' making out that I was trying to argue about the number being withdrawn when you had given no indication of any number. In fact I was saying it would be unlikely for any units to be withdrawn from service altogether as a result of Thameslink cascades.

I'd say cascaded EMUs going to the North West is an almost certainty, not certain as something may change but almost certain because it's what DfT are planning. Pacer withdrawal isn't something DfT are planning so anything related to it is in hope that an unconfirmed proposal goes through.

 

[tbtc]

DfT haven't stated, for instance, 10 Pacers will be withdrawn

Given the micro management that they are criticised for, I think that this would be far too prescriptive.

Really, its not for them to decide.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In this, you are echoing my appeal for a Pacer "super-thread" from a few months ago, which others have made reference to from time to time, without the usual "forum time-limit" upon it, as this "Pacer storyline" will be running for some years yet. We have had "Pacer" threads on the NR General Discussion forum, the Traction and Rolling Stock forum....and recently, even on the Infrastructure forum (in which I suppose their longevity would seem to make them "part of the furniture").

I suggested to one of the Mods that we have a "Pacer" thread and a "HS2" thread, since we end up having the same old arguments in various different parts of the Forums (as you say).

It worked well on the Grand Central thread, which had hundreds of posts centralised in one place (sadly now expired).

Similarly MattE2010's "Frequently requested diagrams" has hopefully avoided a number of new threads being started requesting diagrams (there used to be one about the XC HSTs fairly often).

 

[route:oxford]

You used the word 'certainly' when talking about Pacer withdrawals.

We can be absolutely certain that Pacers will be withdrawn.

We cannot be absolutely certain the exact date when Pacers will withdrawn, but can be reasonably sure that it will be within the next 2 decades.

 

[RobShipway]

The person I was replying to had used the term 'some units'. What's the real difference between that and 'a few units'?

I made no comment whatsoever about numbers...

To JCollins.... I did use the word some units in my previous post in this thread as per swt_passengers comments, meaning that I do not expect that the electrification of any routes or Thameslink getting their new stock which would release class 319's that this would mean all pacers to be withdrawn as ws commented earlier there any too many to replace in one go.

 

[142094]

Remember this is the UK we're talking about - if someone says this will be done/removed/scrapped by day/month/year then 5/10/15 years after that we'll still be building/removing/scrapping whatever it was.

 

[BR Blue]

I`m pretty sure some of the pacer fleet will be snapped up by heritage railways. They can be used for 80`s weekends. I can see it now - a class 142, shaking its way along the SVR, filled with punters with dodgy haircuts, wearing Wham t-shirts whist holding onto their sony walkmans.

To finish it off - original 80`s livery, maybe kit the pacer out with a huge ghetto blaster.

 

[Nym]

You know a pacer wouldn't be able to power or carry such a big stereo right?

 

[ginger]

razor blades hopefully.............

 

[WatcherZero]

Since they started as freight wagons do you think Pacers might return to freight duties as cheap conversions? I guess the scrap value of them however may be higher than the benefits of reusing them in Eastern Europe/Freight.