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Wheelchair user has problems getting OFF a train (FCC)

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jon0844

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First we had someone who wasn't allowed on a train in a wheelchair, now we have someone who couldn't get off!

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/disab...doors_at_welwyn_garden_city_station_1_1124340

A DISABLED man has spoken of his fury after his wheelchair was stuck in a train doorway and repeatedly smashed into by closing doors.

Philip Burrows, of Stanborough Close, WGC, had just arrived at the town’s railway station on September 19 after returning from Shropshire, when the “serious incident” took place.

Mr Burrows said he was using train operator First Capital Connect’s assisted travel service – a claim the firm rejected – when he and wife Susan arrived at the station to find no ramp in place for his wheelchair.

A ticket inspector helped the couple and fetched a ramp as they struggled to get off the 14.16 Peterborough to King’s Cross service.

But as Mr Burrows was stuck in the doorway of the train the doors repeatedly opened and closed crashing into his chair and his wife’s hand.

It's quite possible FCC wasn't aware of the need to provide a ramp if it hadn't been requested, but it's surprising that the doors would close on someone trying to get off. The driver would surely have had a good clear view at WGC? And aren't some trains manually dispatched?

I am guessing it was a 365 as they will open a little and try again, and have a bit more force - although not so hard that I expect it did any actual damage to person or chair.

When a ramp is 'booked' I presume the member of staff signals to the driver as the train comes in, or does the driver get informed too? Otherwise, how do ramps normally get used without the driver just deciding to close the doors after 10-15 seconds? It's not the first time a driver has closed the doors on people as they were still trying to get off, let alone others trying to get on.
 
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ChrisTheRef

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In my TOC, the staff providing assistance will be wearing hi-vis and will acknowledge the driver as the train pulls in. As the guard steps off the train, the platform staff will make sure the guard is aware they're there. Simple.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to miss a big yellow wheelchair ramp.
 

raildude

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In my TOC, the staff providing assistance will be wearing hi-vis and will acknowledge the driver as the train pulls in. As the guard steps off the train, the platform staff will make sure the guard is aware they're there. Simple.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to miss a big yellow wheelchair ramp.

It is not a requirement to wear a Hi-vis to take a wheelchair off a train though. In fact, most TOC staff don't wear them, even for things like train dispatch. To be honest I find it distracting having non safety critical staff wearing Hi-viz.

Platform Staff have no requirement to wear it unless they are going on or near the lines, and a platform is not counted as being near the line for that rule.

Why would you need to acknowledge the driver?
 

jon0844

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In my TOC, the staff providing assistance will be wearing hi-vis and will acknowledge the driver as the train pulls in. As the guard steps off the train, the platform staff will make sure the guard is aware they're there. Simple.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to miss a big yellow wheelchair ramp.

Of course, this train was DOO and during the day may not be dispatched by anyone on the platform (and I'm not entirely sure that happens at any time of the day, but I am sure I've seen it in the evening rush hour for northbound trains - but someone will correct me).

I do think platform staff will usually wear hi-vis clothing though. A lot of staff at Finsbury Park do, even if they're not actually dispatching. RPIs don't though - and it was an RPI that apparently went to get the ramp in this case.
 

ChrisTheRef

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It is not a requirement to wear a Hi-vis to take a wheelchair off a train though. In fact, most TOC staff don't wear them, even for things like train dispatch. To be honest I find it distracting having non safety critical staff wearing Hi-viz.

Platform Staff have no requirement to wear it unless they are going on or near the lines, and a platform is not counted as being near the line for that rule.

Why would you need to acknowledge the driver?

No need, we're just a friendly bunch
 

BestWestern

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:roll:...DOO train provides customers with crap service 'coz there was nobody on the train to keep an eye on things...

Welcome to the future folks :|

This could have had nasty consequences actually, lucky it didn't. If only somebody had thought to provide a second member of staff on the train who could take charge of dispatch and stop people being jammed in the doors, deeply humiliated and potentially injured...Hang on a minute...
 
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AlterEgo

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Sounds like an overblown complaint. FCC have already denied that he had assistance booked. Such a denial would only be made if the TOC were absolutely certain of the fact.

As usual, we hear only one side of the story! Pinch of salt chaps...
 

Tomonthetrain

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Sounds like an overblown complaint. FCC have already denied that he had assistance booked. Such a denial would only be made if the TOC were absolutely certain of the fact.

As usual, we hear only one side of the story! Pinch of salt chaps...

Hear hear
 

jon0844

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I recently asked on the FCC forum what they were doing about the train that stopped short at New Southgate, after it had been put on the fast line. A poster on here had shown that for some odd reason, they'd put the 8 car stop sign just after the 4/6 sign on that platform - meaning a driver would stop in a position that left part of the last car off the platform.

They said they'd reviewed the CCTV and established it never happened! I was *ON* the train and saw it - and saw the man who decided to jump down to the floor and walk up the platform ramp. I'm annoyed that I didn't take a picture or video. I said on the forum that I was on that train, and they said they'd look again. Now, they cannot have possibly looked the first time can they? If they did look and it didn't happen, then I made it all up and I know I didn't!

There was a time I'd have said FCC would hold their hands up, but now I am not so sure.

However, for the record, it is quite possible that the person hadn't booked assistance (on that basis, they must have boarded without assistance too - as the person that loaded them on would almost certainly have taken it upon themselves to ask where they were going) but we can partly ignore that bit of the story as it isn't relevant to what happened.

The driver has, for whatever reason, deemed it okay to close the doors and proceed - when a wheelchair was attempting to get off. As there's CCTV at WGC, I am certain the truth will be established - unless it was faulty that day!

I know people at the paper, so I am sure they'll write a follow up story later on. Local papers are usually desperate for news, so will return to older stories - unlike the nationals that may get something wrong, or receive new information, and then bury the story and go all quiet!
 

cyclebytrain

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I've seen wheelchairs stranded on Pendolinos at Euston a couple of times, (indeed I wondered whether it's the guard or the platform staff who should be responsible for checking this doesn't happen) in one case I know that they had booked assistance because I boarded at the same station and the platform staff there knew they were coming, so neither guards or booking assistance in advance guarantees there won't be problems.
 

SS4

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Sounds like an overblown complaint. FCC have already denied that he had assistance booked. Such a denial would only be made if the TOC were absolutely certain of the fact.

As usual, we hear only one side of the story! Pinch of salt chaps...

If you did get a pinch of salt for each time a story like this was made/swallowed you'd be able to keep Birmingham's roads clear this winter!
 

John55

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"This could have had nasty consequences actually, lucky it didn't. If only somebody had thought to provide a second member of staff on the train who could take charge of dispatch and stop people being jammed in the doors, deeply humiliated and potentially injured...Oh, hang on a minute..."

Like at James St on 22nd October.......
 

BestWestern

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"This could have had nasty consequences actually, lucky it didn't. If only somebody had thought to provide a second member of staff on the train who could take charge of dispatch and stop people being jammed in the doors, deeply humiliated and potentially injured...Oh, hang on a minute..."

Like at James St on 22nd October.......

The Merseyrail incident was a totally different occurrence. We are talking here not of somebody on the platform falling, but actually attempting to alight from the train and finding themselves trapped in the doors. The report states that the passenger and his wheelchair were repeatedly hit as the doors attempted to close on him. That is an injury waiting to happen. This person was presumably immobile, and less able to deal with becoming trapped than others might be. We don't know the full facts yet, but what this underlines are the dangers of the person hitting the close button not actually being fully aware of what is happening around the doors.
 

jon0844

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I don't think the person was ever in any serious danger, but having doors (which we know are pretty harsh - if it was a 365) close on you over and over is not going to be nice - and the real question is why the driver didn't see what was going on in the first place. It almost certainly was platform 3 (down fast) so the driver would have looked out from the left hand side if there isn't a mirror or monitors.

Now, I fully accept the story may have been exaggerated. It could be the doors closed once, detected an obstruction, tried again and then the driver opened them fully after looking out. But even if the story is exaggerated and even if nobody from FCC had been asked to assist in advance, there's still a valid complaint here.

I just hope the person is more interested in getting an explanation and helping ensure it doesn't happen again than going after compensation. To be fair, that hasn't been mentioned yet so let's give the person the benefit of the doubt that they have good intentions AND haven't lied!
 

TEW

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I do think platform staff will usually wear hi-vis clothing though. A lot of staff at Finsbury Park do, even if they're not actually dispatching. RPIs don't though - and it was an RPI that apparently went to get the ramp in this case.
Having dispatch staff wearing hi viz is useful so they stand out in a busy platform, I know on FGW they were yellow rather than orange hi viz, so there is no confusion about them being allowed on the tracks.
 

ralphchadkirk

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If he was on a ramp, which would block the doorway, then surely there's no way it could "repeatedly crash into his wheelchair" or "crush his wife's hand".
 

ANorthernGuard

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"This could have had nasty consequences actually, lucky it didn't. If only somebody had thought to provide a second member of staff on the train who could take charge of dispatch and stop people being jammed in the doors, deeply humiliated and potentially injured...Oh, hang on a minute..."

Like at James St on 22nd October.......

Wait until the facts come out before spouting Sarcasm,it doesn't help anybody or provide anything useful to the debate!
 

Aictos

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It is not a requirement to wear a Hi-vis to take a wheelchair off a train though. In fact, most TOC staff don't wear them, even for things like train dispatch. To be honest I find it distracting having non safety critical staff wearing Hi-viz.

Platform Staff have no requirement to wear it unless they are going on or near the lines, and a platform is not counted as being near the line for that rule.

Why would you need to acknowledge the driver?

All First TOCs require their dispatchers to wear a hi vis vest, I believe National Express is the only operator not to do so which is something carried over from GNER days.

In my TOC, the staff providing assistance will be wearing hi-vis and will acknowledge the driver as the train pulls in. As the guard steps off the train, the platform staff will make sure the guard is aware they're there. Simple.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to miss a big yellow wheelchair ramp.

Very true, FCC staff usually are ready and waiting with the wheelchair ramp on the platform prior to the train arriving however it's not always helped by the fact that despite passengers having booked the assistance for the request to not come though for some reason.

Some wheelchair passengers have different needs to others, 2 of the regulars I know just need a ramp to get on the train and they're fine getting off.

Of course, this train was DOO and during the day may not be dispatched by anyone on the platform (and I'm not entirely sure that happens at any time of the day, but I am sure I've seen it in the evening rush hour for northbound trains - but someone will correct me).

I do think platform staff will usually wear hi-vis clothing though. A lot of staff at Finsbury Park do, even if they're not actually dispatching. RPIs don't though - and it was an RPI that apparently went to get the ramp in this case.

Welwyn GC only has staff dispatching on Platforms 3 and 4 as Platforms 1 and 2 are fully DOO and as I've said above ALL dispatchers wear hi vis vests as it's a requirement by First Group.

Finally please remember all that there is always two sides to a story, okay please just wait for all the facts to come out.
 

jopsuk

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Having dispatch staff wearing hi viz is useful so they stand out in a busy platform, I know on FGW they were yellow rather than orange hi viz, so there is no confusion about them being allowed on the tracks.

I've seen FCC platform staff wearing pink hi-viz- no confusion with orange, and fits the corporate colour scheme...
 

WestCoast

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All First TOCs require their dispatchers to wear a hi vis vest, I believe National Express is the only operator not to do so which is something carried over from GNER days.

I don't think Virgin dispatchers wear high vis. jackets. Some wear bright red coats though!

Which reminds me of something a visitor from Canada said to me a couple of years ago, "everyone wears those jackets in this country".:lol:
 

bnm

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Sounds like an overblown complaint. FCC have already denied that he had assistance booked. Such a denial would only be made if the TOC were absolutely certain of the fact.

As usual, we hear only one side of the story! Pinch of salt chaps...

That's a bit contradictory.

FCC issued a denial. Is that not their side of the story?
 

jon0844

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FCC denied assistance was booked. They didn't say someone wasn't hit by the doors, whether once or repeatedly.
 

MikeWh

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If he was on a ramp, which would block the doorway, then surely there's no way it could "repeatedly crash into his wheelchair" or "crush his wife's hand".

I took this:
A ticket inspector helped the couple and fetched a ramp as they struggled to get off the 14.16 Peterborough to King’s Cross service.

But as Mr Burrows was stuck in the doorway of the train the doors repeatedly opened and closed crashing into his chair and his wife’s hand.
to mean that the doors tried to close while the inspector was getting the ramp. Ie the driver thought everyone was off but this couple were still waiting for the ramp.
 

Bungle73

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I took this:to mean that the doors tried to close while the inspector was getting the ramp. Ie the driver thought everyone was off but this couple were still waiting for the ramp.

If they were waiting for the ramp why would he be in the doorway? His wheelchair would have had to have been sticking out of the train to obstruct the doors.
 

Username

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If they were waiting for the ramp why would he be in the doorway? His wheelchair would have had to have been sticking out of the train to obstruct the doors.

Wheelchair users are generally recommended to disembark by coming backwards down a ramp.
If they were waiting for the ramp in this position then I imagine it's possible that his wife could have been standing on the platform whilst still holding the handles of the wheelchair.
This then could mean the chair handles were above the threshold and in line with the doors as they tried to close.
 

jon0844

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The safety poster at Hatfield (for buggies) does say to board with the buggy facing forwards, and to alight by pulling the buggy off backwards.

Realising the train was going to London, it would have been platform 2, not 3 as I'd previously said. It would have also been the up fast.
 

EM2

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FCC denied assistance was booked. They didn't say someone wasn't hit by the doors, whether once or repeatedly.
Even if the customer didn't book assistance, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't assisted by staff at Peterborough. Otherwise, how did he get on board?
And if that is so, did staff at Peterborough contact the staff at Welwyn?
 

jon0844

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I would have thought you could board a wheelchair on a 365 if you had help. He was with someone else.
 

EM2

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I would have thought you could board a wheelchair on a 365 if you had help. He was with someone else.
A member of staff will have to get a ramp though. Hence EM2's post.
I don't know the platforms at Peterborough, though. Jon has a point, in that if the gap between train and platfrom is minimal, then a wheelchair user can board without the use of a ramp.
If that is what happened, and staff didn't know he'd boarded, how would they know to get the ramp for him, to get off at Welwyn?
 
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