Arriving at St Pancras Int off-peak

[Cletus]

Travelling from Dover Priory to St Pancras on HS1 I believe that the weekday off-peak doesn't begin until 11.00am? This means that I wouldn't be able to take the 9.44am from DVP arriving at STP 10.44am?

Therefore as means of arriving at STP as soon after 11.00am as possible, would I be able to get the 9.44am but get off at Stratford and wait for the next service that arrives at STP after 11.00am and get on that?

 

[Bungle73]

Who said it starts at 11am? Here off-peak is the first train to arrive in London after 10am.

 

[Cletus]

I stand corrected

If then you bring forward my timings by 1 hour, would my query apply?

 

[Bungle73]

I stand corrected

If then you bring forward my timings by 1 hour, would my query apply?

I'm not saying this is the case for DP mind, but I don't see why it wouldn't be seeing as DP is further out and is the same TOC.

As to the second question no you cannot. You cannot catch any train before the off-peak period starts using an off-peak ticket.

 

[Brucey]

The restriction is "By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000."

So if your train to Stratford is destined for London and will reach there before 1000, then your ticket is not valid (even if you leave at Stratford).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Travelling from Dover Priory to St Pancras on HS1 I believe that the weekday off-peak doesn't begin until 11.00am? This means that I wouldn't be able to take the 9.44am from DVP arriving at STP 10.44am?

You didn't say which ticket type you're intending on using (the restriction will vary depending on ticket type). This information is needed to give an accurate answer.

For example an off-peak return from Dover Priory to London Terminals route PLUS HIGH SPEED is valid "by any train except those timed to depart Mondays - Fridays before 0930". On the other hand an off-peak day return with the same origin, destination and route is valid on any train "scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000."

So the 09:44 from Dover, arriving St Pancras 10:51 would be valid on both these tickets. The 08:57 from Dover, changing at Ashford International and arriving at St Pancras at 10:21 would be valid on an off-peak day return (since you arrive in London after 10am), but not on an off-peak return (since you depart Dover before 09:30am).

I have modified this as highlighted to turn it into a relevant question:

Therefore as means of arriving at STP as soon after 10.00am as possible when travelling on an off-peak day return, would I be able to get the 8.44am but get off at Stratford and wait for the next service that arrives at STP after 10.00am and get on that?

Not in this case - the 08:44 will still arrive in St Pancras before 10:00am, whether or not you are on it! You are barred from travelling on any trains that arrive in St Pancras before 10am. If however the 08:44 terminated at Stratford and didn't arrive in London at all, then the restriction wouldn't apply to that train and you would be OK to do this.

 

[craigwilson]

You didn't say which ticket type you're intending on using (the restriction will vary depending on ticket type). This information is needed to give an accurate answer.

This is especially true because journeys to destinations past London/outside of the Network area are subject to different restrictions

e.g. Margate to Manchester - the first Off-Peak train which goes via STP is the 07:49, which arrives into STP at 09:21. This is off-peak because the restriction code for MAR-MAN off-peak returns is 9I which states:

Outward Travel

You may travel on any train that is scheduled to DEPART:

London Euston: Between 09:26 & 15:00 (inclusive) and at or after 18:45

and such an itinerary would put you on the 1000 EUS-MAN.

 

[bb21]

I'm not saying this is the case for DP mind, but I don't see why it wouldn't be seeing as DP is further out and is the same TOC.

This is a dangerous assumption to make and not always true.

This is especially true because journeys to destinations past London/outside of the Network area are subject to different restrictions

e.g. Margate to Manchester - the first Off-Peak train which goes via STP is the 07:49, which arrives into STP at 09:21. This is off-peak because the restriction code for MAR-MAN off-peak returns is 9I which states:

and such an itinerary would put you on the 1000 EUS-MAN.

Why 0921?

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

 

[yorkie]

This is especially true because journeys to destinations past London/outside of the Network area are subject to different restrictions

e.g. Margate to Manchester - the first Off-Peak train which goes via STP is the 07:49, which arrives into STP at 09:21. This is off-peak because the restriction code for MAR-MAN off-peak returns is 9I which states:



and such an itinerary would put you on the 1000 EUS-MAN.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but for the avoidance of doubt the rule is:

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Which is pretty clear

 

[craigwilson]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but for the avoidance of doubt the rule is:

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Which is pretty clear

OK, I wasn't aware of that rule. That's indeed very clear

Where do I find that written down (just so I know)?

Would be slightly pointless starting stupidly early though (in the case of my example journey, you'd still have to stand at Euston and wait for the 0940, even if you got there 2 hours before - you're still restricted by the other leg of the journey)

 

[Bungle73]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but for the avoidance of doubt the rule is:



Which is pretty clear

Then why is if I put in Sittingbourne to Bath into the Journey planner (off-peak return) it tells me the first train I can catch is the 9:07am, which is the first off-peak service?

Interestingly when I went to Bath last year it told me I could take an earlier one, which I did (I took a print out of the result from the journey planner just in case I got challenged though).

 

[bb21]

Then why is if I put in Sittingbourne to Bath into the Journey planner (off-peak return) it tells me the first train I can catch is the 9:07am, which is the first off-peak service?

Interestingly when I went to Bath last year it told me I could take an earlier one, which I did (I took a print out of the result from the journey planner just in case I got challenged though).

Likely to be an interpretation error from the engine.

This particular 'easement' has been in place for years.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Sittingbourne to Bath Spa takes restriction code YC, copied below - check out the highlighted part!

JOURNEYS TO/FROM/VIA
LONDON/READING

Available as listed below
MONDAYS to FRIDAYS. (By any
train on Saturdays, Sundays
and Bank Holidays)

OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Available: See notes below

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available on all trains
departing at or later than:

FROM:

Avoncliff 0820
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Bath Spa 0830
Bradford on Avon 0755
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Bridgend 0745
(also valid between 0200 and
0500)
Bridgewater 0715
Bristol Parkway 0845
(also valid between 0200 and
0530)
Bristol Temple Meads 0815
(also valid between 0200 and
0510)
Cardiff Central 0810
(also valid between 0200 and
0530)
Castle Cary 0735
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Cheltenham Spa 0745
(if travel is via Bristol
Parkway, see notes below)
Chippenham 0840
Dawlish 0735
Exeter St Davids 0810
(also valid on 0723 and 0743
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Freshford 0800
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Frome 0720
Gloucester 0748
(if travel is via Bristol
Parkway, see notes below)
Highbridge 0725
Kemble 0905
Nailsea & Backwell 0800
Neath 0725
(also valid between 0200 and
0430)
Newport 0830
(also valid between 0200 and
0545)
Pewsey 0755
Port Talbot Parkway 0735
(also valid between 0200 and
0445)
Stonehouse 0845
Stroud 0850
Swansea 0715
(also valid between 0200 and
0430)
Swindon 0905
(also valid between 0200 and
0545)
Taunton 0840
(also valid on 0751 and 0811
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Teignmouth 0735
Tiverton Parkway 0830
(also valid on 0737 and 0756
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Trowbridge 0750
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Westbury 0753
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Weston Milton 0745
Weston-Super-Mare 0735
Worle 0750
Yatton 0755

NOTES:
TRAVEL VIA BRISTOL PARKWAY
(EASTNOUND) FROM CHELTENHAM
SPA/GLOUCESTER:
The restriction time shown
above for Bristol Parkway also
applies for journeys from
these stations when travelling
via Bristol Parkway.

TRAVEL VIA BATH SPA
(EASTBOUND) FROM CASTLE CARY,
WESTBURY, TROWBRIDGE, BRADFORD
-ON-AVON, FRESHFORD AND
AVONCLIFF:
The restriction time shown
above for Bath Spa also
applies for journeys from
these stations when travelling
via Bath Spa.

RETURN TRAVEL TO OR VIA
LONDON WATERLOO is permitted
on all trains timed to arrive
at Waterloo at or later than
0952.
OUTWARD TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS
apply_from the stations listed
below. Tickets are valid:

On services timed to depart
London Paddington between 0810
and 1640, and from 1831.
On services timed to depart
Reading between 0835 and 1710,
and from 1901.

On services timed to depart
London Waterloo from 0815.

On services timed to depart
Clapham Junction from 0820.

TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:
Super Off-Peak_tickets from
stations not listed are valid
for connections into trains
departing as shown above.

ADDITIONAL RESTRICTIONS APPLY
FOR THE FOLLOWING JOURNEYS:

Validity Code WO applies to
all journeys via Newbury or
Didcot Parkway, not passing
through_Reading.

Validity Code Q8 applies to
all journeys via Fareham,
Southampton or Salisbury.

Validity Codes 2C/9I
(restrictions listed as From/
via Euston apply from Swindon,
Pewsey, Westbury and_Castle
Cary for travel via
London Euston to destinations
beyond Milton Keynes.

Validity codes 7E/9J apply to
all journeys via London St
Pancras International.

TRAVEL OVER THE CHRISTMAS/NEW
YEAR PERIOD: Restrictions are
lifted on First Great Western
services from 27 December 2011
to 2 January 2012 inclusive.

OVERNIGHT BREAK OF JOURNEY(SEE
BREAK OF JOURNEY NOTES AT
START OF THIS SECTION) -
RESTARTING JOURNEY FROM AN
INTERMEDIATE STATION: on day
2, restrictions as_and journey
must recommence before 1200.

This "overlay" of restriction 7E (see copy below, again with relevant section highlighted) is what's causing the problem.

These restrictions apply
MONDAY to FRIDAY. By any train
on other days.

If travel is NOT to/via the
stations listed above or
PETERBOROUGH, see restriction
code 2V.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE as
shown below:

RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to DEPART_as
shown below:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON (From
restriction 2C)
Between 0926 & 1500 (inc.) and
at or after 1845
ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0720 or at or after
1130.

DEPART: LONDON KING'S CROSS
(From restriction 1U)
At any time.

ARRIVE: LONDON KING'S CROSS
At or after 1008

DEPART: LONDON ST PANCRAS
INTERNATIONAL
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) and
at or after 1859.

ARRIVE: LONDON ST PANCRAS
INTERNATIONAL
At or after 1005.

DEPART:LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
(From restriction 1C)
Between 0931 & 1628 (inc.) and
at or after 1835 (see note
below)

ARRIVE:LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
At or after 1000 (see note
below)


DEPART: STEVENAGE (From
restriction 1U)
At any time.

ARRIVE: STEVENAGE
At or after 0957.

DEPART: BEDFORD
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.)
and at or after 1859

ARRIVE: BEDFORD
At or after 0930

DEPART: LUTON
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) and
at or after 1859

ARRIVE: LUTON
At or after 1005

DEPART: LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY
Between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) and
at or after 1859

ARRIVE: LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY
At or after 1005

NOTES:
Travel is permitted on the
1636 from London Liverpool
Street to Braintree for
destinations Hatfield Peverell
to Braintree only.

 

[LexyBoy]

OK, I wasn't aware of that rule. That's indeed very clear

Where do I find that written down (just so I know)?

I don't know if the 'rule' is written down as quoted in the public domain, but the ticket restrictions (as accessible through national rail enquiries) for such journeys will only give restrictions for the leg outside of the network area. The other part of the journey is therefore unrestricted by definition.

(the exception is some lazily worded restrictions applying to east anglian destinations)

 

[Bungle73]

Sittingbourne to Bath Spa takes restriction code YC, copied below - check out the highlighted part!



This "overlay" of restriction 7E (see copy below, again with relevant section highlighted) is what's causing the problem.

I see. Is this a new thing, because as I said I made the journey last year and caught a train at aprox. 7:30am, as advised by the journey planner when I purchased the ticket. I had to show it to several people on the journey to St Pancras and wasn't challenged (it wouldn't work the barrier at St Pancras though).

 

[bb21]

Has there been any agreement as to whether the referral to Restriction 7E trumps the 'easement' of restrictions?

If not then the ambiguity can play to the passenger's advantage.

For the benefit of those without access to the relevant software, the full restriction text is:

Restriction : YC
JOURNEYS TO/FROM/VIA
LONDON/READING

Available as listed below
MONDAYS to FRIDAYS. (By any
train on Saturdays, Sundays
and Bank Holidays)

OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Available: See notes below

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available on all trains
departing at or later than:

FROM:

Avoncliff 0820
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Bath Spa 0830
Bradford on Avon 0755
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Bridgewater 0715
Bristol Parkway 0845
(also valid between 0200 and
0530)
Bristol Temple Meads 0815
(also valid between 0200 and
0510)
Castle Cary 0735
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Cheltenham Spa 0745
(if travel is via Bristol
Parkway, see notes below)
Chippenham 0840
Dawlish 0735
Exeter St Davids 0810
(also valid on 0723 and 0743
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Freshford 0800
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Frome 0720
Gloucester 0748
(if travel is via Bristol
Parkway, see notes below)
Highbridge 0725
Kemble 0905
Nailsea & Backwell 0800
Pewsey 0755
Stonehouse 0845
Stroud 0850
Swindon 0905
(also valid between 0200 and
0545)
Taunton 0840
(also valid on 0751 and 0811
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Teignmouth 0735
Tiverton Parkway 0830
(also valid on 0737 and 0756
XC services changing at
Bristol Temple Meads or
Parkway.)
Trowbridge 0750
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Westbury 0753
(if travel is via Bath Spa,
see notes below)
Weston Milton 0745
Weston-Super-Mare 0735
Worle 0750
Yatton 0755

NOTES:
TRAVEL VIA BRISTOL PARKWAY
(EASTNOUND) FROM CHELTENHAM
SPA/GLOUCESTER:
The restriction time shown
above for Bristol Parkway also
applies for journeys from
these stations when travelling
via Bristol Parkway.

TRAVEL VIA BATH SPA
(EASTBOUND) FROM CASTLE CARY,
WESTBURY, TROWBRIDGE, BRADFORD
-ON-AVON, FRESHFORD AND
AVONCLIFF:
The restriction time shown
above for Bath Spa also
applies for journeys from
these stations when travelling
via Bath Spa.

RETURN TRAVEL TO OR VIA
LONDON WATERLOO is permitted
on all trains timed to arrive
at Waterloo at or later than
0952.
OUTWARD TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS
apply_from the stations listed
below. Tickets are valid:

On services timed to depart
London Paddington between 0810
and 1640, and from 1831.
On services timed to depart
Reading between 0835 and 1710,
and from 1901.

On services timed to depart
London Waterloo from 0815.

On services timed to arrive at
Salisbury from 0930.

TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:
Super Off-Peak_tickets from
stations not listed are valid
for connections into trains
departing as shown above.

ADDITIONAL RESTRICTIONS APPLY
FOR THE FOLLOWING JOURNEYS:

Validity Code WO applies to
all journeys via Newbury or
Didcot Parkway, not passing
through_Reading.

Validity Code Q8 applies to
all journeys via Fareham,
Southampton or Salisbury.

Validity Codes 2C/9I
(restrictions listed as From/
via Euston apply from Swindon,
Pewsey, Westbury and_Castle
Cary for travel via
London Euston to destinations
beyond Milton Keynes.

Validity codes 7E/9J apply to
all journeys via London St
Pancras International.

[... Irrelevant ...]

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE, and in
all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
If a passenger is_still
travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

[... Irrelevant ...]

TICKET INFORMATION:
Off-Peak tickets are not valid
when the journey is affected
by a restriction shown against
the ticket's validity code.

Tickets with a 'Maltese Cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being made

Any local validity easements
can be found in the Easements
section- Easements
introduction to view.

Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

SELLING AN OFF-PEAK TICKET
Customers should be told of
any restrictions which may
affect any part of their
journey.

Where available, an
information card giving ticket
validity details should be
given out with each Off-Peak
ticket.

 

[Mike395]

I think that the second paragraph stating 'unless shown otherwise' covers it - i.e. any specific restriction supercedes the more general easement of the restrictions

 

[Paul Kelly]

That qualification only applies to "Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network Area". The previous paragraph covers "Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area" and it doesn't allow exceptions, and this is what applies to the Sittingbourne to Bath ticket.

I accept that this doesn't apply to a Bath to Sittingbourne ticket though - that is clearly covered by the second paragraph and thus the evening restrictions out of St Pancras would apply to this one.

 

[yorkie]

I think that the second paragraph stating 'unless shown otherwise' covers it - i.e. any specific restriction supercedes the more general easement of the restrictions

I strongly disagree, it's not uncommon to see restriction text that makes absolutely no sense in relation to the journey actually being made. The validity text is an absolute mess on quite a few of the codes, such as this one. Additionally there is no "unless shown otherwise" text where the origin is inside the Network area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see. Is this a new thing

No...

This is one of the longest running agreements
on the railway but there are still some staff who
do not seem to be familiar with it. It has been
around for at least 25 years!!

because as I said I made the journey last year and caught a train at aprox. 7:30am, as advised by the journey planner when I purchased the ticket. I had to show it to several people on the journey to St Pancras and wasn't challenged (it wouldn't work the barrier at St Pancras though).

Unfortunately the journey planners struggle to interpret some long-distance journeys with complex restriction codes, and when you look at the ridiculous restrictions you can see why. Quite simply the programmers don't appear to know which rule trumps which rule, and it's not easy to program a load of waffle in text format to a series of instructions that are applied to a booking engine.

A computer program will carry out instructions in whatever sequence it is told to do.

 

[Mike395]

Whoops my mistake - been a long day, misread the restriction text

 

[OwlMan]

Another badly worded item forom a TOC/ATOC. I would assume the idea was to restrict long distance travel into St Pancras. Unfortunately the people who word these items do not have the knowledge to know what else these changes affect.

 

[Paul Kelly]

My opinion is that it's related to HS1 and SouthEastern wanting to restrict the use of long-distance off-peak and advance fares on what they consider to be "peak" trains into and out of St Pancras, because of the specific mention of "St Pancras International".

The same wording about restrictions 7E/9J has been tagged onto loads of other restrictions. I wonder is it even an attempt to hide the fact that is only purpose is to restrict morning and afternoon peak availability on HS1 services. Probably not though - but it could be much clearer.

The wording is more obvious on the restriction codes for certain advance fares - I believe it is the main way SouthEastern restrict availability of advances on HS1. They can't do it the usual way by putting a zero quota since the trains aren't reservable. E.g. advance fares from Sittingbourne to Bath take restricrtion IS:

OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Valid on First Great Western
(TOC Code:GWA/GRW) and most
connecting services (see
below)

NOT valid on SouthEastern High
Speed services (HS1) arriving
at London St Pancras
International before 0959. or
departing London St Pancras
International between 1600 and
1859, Monday to Friday.

Seat reservations are
compulsory.