• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What services changed and when?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
Wikipedia (as much as I hate it) tells me that until the 1980s Arun Valley (that's Horsham-Ford) services used to run via Sutton until they were switched to run via Gatwick Airport. (To be fair I had always wondered why the line designations through Mitcham and after Sutton were known as the Up and Down Portsmouth).

Anyway, does anyone have any more examples of such service changes, and when they came about?

Cheers
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

IanPooleTrains

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2010
Messages
1,217
Location
Brereton, Rugeley, Staffordshire
One that I can remember is the Cardiff to Birmingham services before Xc took them over, they went via Worcester and the Snow Hill lines up to Smethwick before turning down into Birmingham, late 90s early naughties i believe
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
There used to be a lot more variation in services, before things became clockface hourly routes.

For example the current Norwich Liverpool service ran via Leicester on a large number of journeys, with the eastern terminus of Stansted/ Ipswich and the western terminus of Blackpool.

These kind of things were all rationalised into one standard service.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,765
Location
Herts
The loss of main line services via Horsham and Sutton was following the Three Bridges resignalling in around 1987 or so - major Southern Central Division re-cast - particularly on giving more services via Gatwick and East Croydon. Excellent article in old "Modern Railways" if you can find it.

As ever , there were winners and losers.Sutton lost its "fast" main line trains which had buffet cars.
 

Ivo

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2010
Messages
7,307
Location
Bath (or Southend)
Someone more knowledgeable of years gone by could confirm this, I'm sure, but I believe that King's Lynn services ran via Harlow until the Stansted Express came along and required its paths, thus switching them across to the Royston route.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
There used to be a lot more variation in services, before things became clockface hourly routes.

For example the current Norwich Liverpool service ran via Leicester on a large number of journeys, with the eastern terminus of Stansted/ Ipswich and the western terminus of Blackpool.

These kind of things were all rationalised into one standard service.

The Liverpool-Norwich service has never run via Leicester. It did however run via Loughborough for a while during the early 1990's.

When sprinters took over from loco hauled trains in 1988 the service on table 49 was basically every 2 hours Norwich-Liverpool, every 2 hours Norwich-Birmingham, every 2 hours Birmingham-Cambridge/Ipswich, every 2 hours Blackpool-Cambridge/Ipswich and a 2 hourly Manchester -Liverpool.

The following year it the Ipswich/Cambridge-Blackpool ran to Liverpool instead with a 2 hourly Blackpool-Nottingham service added.

Colchester and Barrow were 2 destinations added and withdrawn over the years.

During the 1990's the service became the hourly Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted.

Central Trains combined the Liverpool-Birmingham and Birmingham-Stansted services around 1999 if my memory is correct but the SRA split the route again in 2004(?).

The extra summer Saturday trains to/from Gt Yarmouth were also run down to zero over the years.

Hope this helps.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,765
Location
Herts
Someone more knowledgeable of years gone by could confirm this, I'm sure, but I believe that King's Lynn services ran via Harlow until the Stansted Express came along and required its paths, thus switching them across to the Royston route.

They did in loco hauled days - the prime route Cambridge - London was via Harlow , before electrification went beyond Royston to CGE - complicated history - of course , the flagship journey time is now via Hitchin and the GN - not the GE.
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
before it was Electrified, there wasn't a through service from KX to Cambridge, was there? It was all from Liv St; you had to change at Royston. They even used 86s on it after the line from Bishops Stortford was Electrificated.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
back in Central Trains days there was a Pwllheli to Grimsby service using a 156, and an Aberystwyth to Stansted Airport service. Both went in 2001.

Wasn't there a loco hauled Scarborough to Llandudno service back in the 80's?

Euston to Shrewsbury/Aberystwyth
Euston to Pwllheli (summer Saturdays)

went in early 90's.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
back in Central Trains days there was a Pwllheli to Grimsby service using a 156, and an Aberystwyth to Stansted Airport service. Both went in 2001

"Victim" of the many cuts that Central made.

To do it today would mean:

  • Pwllheli/ Chester - Birmingham
  • Birmingham - Leicester
  • Leicester - Lincoln
  • Lincoln - Grimsby

Similarly the Manchester Airport - Skegness service would have to be:

  • Manchester Airport - Crewe
  • Crewe - Derby
  • Derby - Nottingham
  • Nottingham - Skegg

...to be done today.

Quite a lot of cross-country cuts.

A few other cuts to through services in recent years (in Yorkshire)

  • Manchester - Huddersfield - Wakefield
  • Barnsley - Sheffield - London
  • Huddersfield - Sheffield - Lincoln

(all require a change at the "middle" station nowadays)
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
I would give anything (apart from my wife and kids!) to see a train run again between St Pancras and Glasgow via the S & C. Or at least to see the train start at Nottingham as it did in later years. Now that would be something.
 
Last edited:

Drsatan

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
1,884
Location
Land of the Sprinters
XC's network has been pruned back to such an extent that there are no longer any services to Portsmouth, Ramsgate, Liverpool, Poole, Swansea, Brighton, Swindon, Paddington and Glasgow via the WCML. Quite extraordinary given that until December 2007, about 3-4 trains a day were routed to Brighton.

Another victim was ATW's daily service from Penzance to Manchester via the Newport avoiding line. I'd have thought such a service could have been transferred to XC too, along with the daily Portsmouth to Liverpool via the Marches line (operated by Wales and West until 2001). Until 2001 and the creation of the Wessex Trains franchise, the majority of Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central services continued beyond Cardiff Central, to Swansea, Tenby, Pembroke Dock or even Barry Island.
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
before it was Electrified, there wasn't a through service from KX to Cambridge, was there? It was all from Liv St; you had to change at Royston. They even used 86s on it after the line from Bishops Stortford was Electrificated.

Not strictly true, I'm afraid.
I remember a "Cambridge Buffet Express" which was roughly every 2 hours, and called at Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth and Royston, taking about 1.5 hours from King's Cross to Cambridge.

I think it used to be B.1. hauled in the days of steam and then a Cl.31 diesel.

There was also an occasional dmu service calling at all stops from Hatfield, taking nearly 2 hours for the journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Liverpool-Norwich service has never run via Leicester. It did however run via Loughborough for a while during the early 1990's.

Hope this helps.

Well remembered!

IIRC, it ran non-stop Loughborough -Peterborough, and the reason given for this routing was pathing problems through Grantham.

Interesting that now 99% of the services go via Grantham, and there's an even more intensive service on the EC main line!
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,511
Location
Redcar
I remember a "Cambridge Buffet Express" which was roughly every 2 hours, and called at Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth and Royston, taking about 1.5 hours from King's Cross to Cambridge.

Did it include a buffet in the consist? :lol:
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,723
Location
Epsom
The loss of main line services via Horsham and Sutton was following the Three Bridges resignalling in around 1987 or so - major Southern Central Division re-cast - particularly on giving more services via Gatwick and East Croydon. Excellent article in old "Modern Railways" if you can find it.

As ever , there were winners and losers.Sutton lost its "fast" main line trains which had buffet cars.

There was also, until about 30 years ago, a Waterloo - Portsmouth via Epsom hourly wasn't there? All go via Woking these days except during engineering diversions.

So Epsom used to have two different main line services at one time in addition to the more usual suburbans. While on the subject, we must not forget the Waterloo - Horsham service, another long extinct direct service.
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
Until sometime in the 1980s, I think, the Leeds- Huddersfield - Manchester - Liverpool services used to go from Stalybridge via Ashton to Manchester Victoria [Exchange originally, until that closed], and then Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool Lime St.

Then they were diverted to run the present route via Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly/Oxford Rd, then Warrington Central to Lime St.

Now, because of congestion through Piccadilly, there's talk of diverting them back through Victoria, with reduced journey-times. Hey ho.

What goes around comes around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Did it include a buffet in the consist? :lol:

Whatever makes you think that? ;)
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
The Liverpool-Norwich service has never run via Leicester. It did however run via Loughborough for a while during the early 1990's.

Well remembered!

IIRC, it ran non-stop Loughborough -Peterborough, and the reason given for this routing was pathing problems through Grantham.

Interesting that now 99% of the services go via Grantham, and there's an even more intensive service on the EC main line!

Apologies :oops:

Given the capacity problems on the ECML (IIRC the southbound Norwich service has to cross the northbound ECML twice on flat crossings?) I wonder how long until someone will suggest they divert some back via Loughborough?
 

ChrisCooper

Established Member
Joined
7 Sep 2005
Messages
1,787
Location
Loughborough
Another service that got chopped in Central Trains days, but like all of them by the SRA and not them, was Lincoln to Coventry. It got cut back to Nottingham when the West Coast work meant that they could not cross on the flat at Nuneaton, and it's MML path was taken by a Leicester to Nottingham service replacing the London-Nottingham slow that's path south of Leicester was taken by the Manchester service. When the Manchester service ended, so did the Leicester-Nottingham service. Another loss was the Nottingham to Birmingham via Leicester, which like some other services was split at Leicester as part of the breakup of Central, leaving Cross Country with an all stops Leicester to Birmingham service. When Leicestershire County Council cut funding for the Ivanhoe service from Leicester to Loughborough, the Nottingham to Birmingham service was also withdrawn and the Lincoln to Nottingham service was extended to Leicester.

This and many other posts have reminded me of all the places you used to be able to get a train direct to from Loughborough in the past that you now can't. Birmingam, Coventry, Stansted Airport, Liverpool, Manchester, Norwich (more than twice a day in the early morning), etc. The only gain really is that there are now hourly direct trains to Sheffield, when before Turbostars Sheffield service were infrequent and afterwards they became even more infrequent.
 

bicbasher

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2010
Messages
1,747
Location
London
London Bridge to Sutton stoppers via Forest Hill was axed in the Summer 2010 timetable as those paths were required for London Overground East London Line journeys, although if I recall there's still an early morning service on the southbound section?

The paths that were used between Norwood Junction and Sutton are now used for a Victoria to Sutton service via Crystal Palace.
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
Apologies :oops:

Given the capacity problems on the ECML (IIRC the southbound Norwich service has to cross the northbound ECML twice on flat crossings?) I wonder how long until someone will suggest they divert some back via Loughborough?

And when they do, some bright young spark will market it as a new idea and a wonderful way to cut journey times. [Cynical - me? ;)]
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,329
I would give anything (apart from my wife and kids!) to see a train run again between St Pancras and Glasgow via the S & C. Or at least to see the train start at Nottingham as it did in later years. Now that would be something.

I think this would be great! Maybe a railtour with a couple of Voyagers and some really good pathing!!
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
I think this would be great! Maybe a railtour with a couple of Voyagers and some really good pathing!!

Or given that EMT have a HST going spare (rented out to the East Coast) a seats only Friday night train from London to Glasgow might prove popular. There are a lot of people who would use this in preference to the bus if the pricing policy was sensible.
 
Joined
13 Jul 2010
Messages
29
Location
London
And when they do, some bright young spark will market it as a new idea and a wonderful way to cut journey times. [Cynical - me? ;)]


If I'm not mistaken, Adlington Chord was built a few years ago to allow trains to run back north from Grantham & turn east on the line over ECML & eliminate need to cross on the flat.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Apologies :oops:

Given the capacity problems on the ECML (IIRC the southbound Norwich service has to cross the northbound ECML twice on flat crossings?) I wonder how long until someone will suggest they divert some back via Loughborough?

It does indeed cross the ECML on the flat twice.

It's unlikely to go via Loughborough in the immediate future as there aren't the paths available. For most of the day the service from Liverpool arrives Nottingham around xx30. Southbound towards Trent Jct there's already services at xx28 to London, xx32 to Leicester and xx37 to Birmingham. Then at Peterborough there's the xx45 to Ipswich every other hour. Plus there's also more freight using the Leicester-Peterborough line now. It would require a lot of retimings to many services.
 

stut

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
1,899
There was a Guildford to West Croydon (off-peak only, IIRC), as well as a Thameslink branch down via Clandon.

And, I think it was discussed before, a Guildford to Haslemere slow shuttle, connecting with the Portsmouth fasts. A number of the Woking terminators also went down to Guildford.

Was the Redhill - Tonbridge line operated as part of the North Downs Line at some point?

Do I also remember correctly a Newcastle - Durham - Middlesbrough - Saltburn?

I also remember the Stranraer services going via Gilmour St
 

Welshman

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
3,017
If I'm not mistaken, Adlington Chord was built a few years ago to allow trains to run back north from Grantham & turn east on the line over ECML & eliminate need to cross on the flat.

Sorry - the Allington chord allows Nottingham-Skegness trains to go via Grantham and back out the same way they came in, down the Nottingham line and then to the Grantham avoiding line, passing under the ECML, then on to Skegness.

So, yes, it removed the need to go north down the ECML to Barkston before crossing the up ECML to branch-off to Skeggy.

But Nottingham-Norwich services, going south from Grantham and up the ECML to Peterborough must still cross the down ECML twice - once to access the up ECML just south of Grantham station, and the second time to access platforms 4 or 5 at Peterborough.

Hope I've made that clear!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top