2 minutes silence today

[AlterEgo]

But did they sign up to fight Political wars? did they queue up to join when the Government invaded Afghanistan or Iraq? Really, I think the "Political" wars in the Balkans (to stop butchers like Milosevic and Karadic) were well justified.

No they didn't sign up to fight a particular war. But men and women who choose to enlist in the military do so entirely out of choice and are well educated as to what they're signing up for. These people chose their career as much as I did. There is no compulsion to serve in the military, and if you sign up and have to fight a war you don't believe in, then tough. Maybe I have to do things in my job I don't like, too. I'm unlikely to get killed, but I have chosen a career that doesn't involve a risk of being copped by an IED.

 

[Schnellzug]

No they didn't sign up to fight a particular war. But men and women who choose to enlist in the military do so entirely out of choice and are well educated as to what they're signing up for. These people chose their career as much as I did. There is no compulsion to serve in the military, and if you sign up and have to fight a war you don't believe in, then tough. Maybe I have to do things in my job I don't like, too. I'm unlikely to get killed, but I have chosen a career that doesn't involve a risk of being copped by an IED.

That's a reasonable question; it might be interesting to research from members of the Forces, what was their motivation for joining up? was it to defend the country, and if so who did they envisage they might have to defend it against? did any of them really believe all the stuff about "defeating Terrorism"?

 

[Oswyntail]

Remembrance day is as much about peace and pacifism as it is about war. Those we "remember" were fighting as much to try to preserve peace as for any militaristic ventures. Fewer of us these days have as much experience of these things as the previous couple of generations, and I always reflect on what mild-mannered men like my father went through, and I wonder whether, if similarly tested, I could do what they did. Sitting comfortably here, I cannot conceive of myself deliberately killing anyone - but I do not know.
However, what I do object to is the emphasis on celebrating militarism that has grown in the media since the 70s. As has been said above, current members of the armed forces chose that occupation, knowing full well what might be involved. Not a job I would choose, but then I guess the same could be said about mine, for differing reasons. Their choice does not make them "heroes", they are not per se covered in glory, they do not deserve better (or worse) treatment than any other group.

 

[GB]

No they didn't sign up to fight a particular war. But men and women who choose to enlist in the military do so entirely out of choice and are well educated as to what they're signing up for. These people chose their career as much as I did. There is no compulsion to serve in the military, and if you sign up and have to fight a war you don't believe in, then tough. Maybe I have to do things in my job I don't like, too. I'm unlikely to get killed, but I have chosen a career that doesn't involve a risk of being copped by an IED.

You do realise that without these volunteers, conscription would be the next alternative.

These men and woman that do chose this path is the reason you have the choice not to.

 

[AlterEgo]

You do realise that without these volunteers, conscription would be the next alternative.

These men and woman that do chose this path is the reason you have the choice not to.

They are not volunteers. They are paid to do a job, just like everyone else. I fully respect our Armed Services and support our troops, but I choose not to donate to the RBL as there are better places to send my money. Members of the Armed Forces are well remunerated for their time and risk and most are very happy with the lifestyle military service gives them. As I've said, I'm a former Air Cadet, have many friends in the Army and RAF, both enlisted and as officers. Yes, they do the job of defending the Realm so I don't have to, but then I also help run trains, so they don't have to....

 

[GB]

They are not volunteers.

Its the same difference.

Yes, they do the job of defending the Realm so I don't have to, but then I also help run trains, so they don't have to....

:roll:

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Hi all

Walked into work to notice that some insensitive ceos were booking cars during the 2 minutes silence on friday/all day remembrance sunday.

Usually i'd be ok with it however because of the significance of the day i was fuming.

what are peoples views on this

 

[AlterEgo]

Its the same difference.

No it is not. They are paid to do the job. They choose this career willingly, and are motivated by a number of reasons. Among these are an attractive financial package, good pension, prospect of learning a trade, seeing the world, the military lifestyle, sense of duty to one's country and a will to see justice done.

As I've said in previous posts, I fully support the troops and am always naturally concerned when my friends go out into the Sandpit. I observe Remembrance Day every year in a thoughtful manner. But they don't need a pound from me.

There is little danger of conscription when the Royal Air Force will start you on a salary of £27,700 after training as a Logistics Officer, at the age of 18-22. Bear in mind that living costs are very heavily subsidised - there is little else to spend money on except a Mini Cooper (look at the car parks on any RAF Base!) and tax-free alcohol in the Mess. Brilliant lifestyle and yes, those guys and gals are probably worth the money we spend on them! Respect to those who serve on our behalf.

But they don't need one of my hard earned pounds.

It's interesting to see your apparent lack of respect of my opinion. I'm entitled to it, and believe it's rational and well-informed. I do not appreciate criticism for not supporting a particular charitable cause. You'll appreciate that Remembrance is personal to each of us. I've simply explained my approach, which I defy anyone to say is disrespectful or irrelevant. I'm not trying to evangelise or criticise anybody else's view.

 

[SS4]

Call me a cynical bar stool if you like but I can't help thinking that the poppy appeal is turning into a commercial opportunity not unlike Christmas has. Not for the Royal British Legion but these huge multinational corporations who claim to support it but in reality know very little and are simply using it to generate good PR. Take for example the furore over England wearing poppies on their shirts - David Cameron has more important things to do than involve himself ( I can't exclusively blame him though, any politician would have done the same).

Wars are always political in some manner, it would take a very naive soldier to join up not knowing that. I buy the poppy for those who have come back and are unable to work for the rest of their lives either through mental or physical disability and those families who are left behind here who may or may not have had a choice but almost certainly feel the tension and uncertainty

 

[newbie babs]

Alter Ego

a few things

This thread is about 2 minutes silence not a debate on the armed forces. Being an Ex Air cadet does not give you an insight into why people sign up, you obviously didn't for a reason and I respect that but people who do sign up do not deserve what you come out with and if you don't want to Buy a poppy then fine but unless you have been affected with an immediate family member then RESPECT those that have and they may need help and guidance with their life.

 

[Schnellzug]

They are not volunteers. They are paid to do a job, just like everyone else. I fully respect our Armed Services and support our troops, but I choose not to donate to the RBL as there are better places to send my money. Members of the Armed Forces are well remunerated for their time and risk and most are very happy with the lifestyle military service gives them. As I've said, I'm a former Air Cadet, have many friends in the Army and RAF, both enlisted and as officers. Yes, they do the job of defending the Realm so I don't have to, but then I also help run trains, so they don't have to....

The lifestyle military service gives? What lifestyle is that? Do Premierhsip footballers envy them their lifestyle? And are you really comparing running trains with facing being blown up in Afghanistan at any moment? Are you really? Merciful heavens above. :roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

Babs, I respect your opinion, although hopefully you can see that swearing and using personal insults really only supports my view. Which is that people are dictated to about what to think about our Armed Forces.

My point stands. I refuse to evangelise about my opinion, merely putting it out there. It's a shame you can't respect my opinion.

I've been very respectful of what other people think. I ask that I am afforded the same privilege.

 

[Schnellzug]

It's interesting to see your apparent lack of respect of my opinion. I'm entitled to it, and believe it's rational and well-informed. .

:roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

The lifestyle military service gives? What lifestyle is that?

The lifestyle of soldiers is a great lifestyle, plenty of leisure opportunities, married with lots of hard work and a sense of real camaraderie and of duty. Respect to them for that - it's a good life, if that's what floats your boat.

Do Premierhsip footballers envy them their lifestyle?

No - although I think you are missing my point and think I am criticising servicemen and women. I am not. Please re-read my posts where I have actually spoken of my respect for them and the tough jobs they do.

And are you really comparing running trains with facing being blown up in Afghanistan at any moment? Are you really? Merciful heavens above. :roll:

That was a facetious comment, which probably should have had a smiley attached for clarity...

Being a soldier is a tough job. That is a fact. But they are not living in poverty, they all sign up to do the job in accordance with their Terms of Service. They know what the job entails, they are paid well and I think there are better places to spend a pound.

That's my opinion and I appreciate not everyone feels the same way. We have the freedom to disagree and let's be thankful for that - as I've said previously.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

unless you have been affected with an immediate family member then RESPECT those that have and they may need help and guidance with their life.

Both my grandfathers served in the military - maternal in the Navy in the Pacific, and my paternal in the desert with Monty during WWII (he was Irish and it was frowned upon to do so!).

My maternal grandfather, who is still alive, does not buy a poppy either.

My uncle has 22 years' service in the Royal Signals, and retired last year as a Warrant Officer (Class Two).

Perhaps my family situation makes me qualified to have an opinion? Hmm.

 

[raildude]

Hi all

Walked into work to notice that some insensitive ceos were booking cars during the 2 minutes silence on friday/all day remembrance sunday.

Usually i'd be ok with it however because of the significance of the day i was fuming.

what are peoples views on this

Still have a job to do though don't they? It's not mandatory to observe the silence as we all know. If jobs stopped because of a 2 minute silence there would be chaos. Context of railways, some drivers have stopped at a station for 2 minutes extra to observe the silence. This particular driver affected 19 trains.

I very much doubt whether the cars had only been there for the past 2 minutes as well...

There are better ways to remember events and people by being silent.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all

Walked into work to notice that some insensitive ceos were booking cars during the 2 minutes silence on friday/all day remembrance sunday.

Usually i'd be ok with it however because of the significance of the day i was fuming.

what are peoples views on this

Personally it's up to them, although it is very disrespectful IMHO. The cars would probably still have been there at 1102, so it's disappointing to hear that they couldn't just stand and be silent like everyone else.

Who knows, they may have had orders to the contrary - it's difficult to criticise them; if they don't want to observe the silence, it's not right to compel them to.

 

[Old Timer]

Still have a job to do though don't they? It's not mandatory to observe the silence as we all know. If jobs stopped because of a 2 minute silence there would be chaos. Context of railways, some drivers have stopped at a station for 2 minutes extra to observe the silence. This particular driver affected 19 trains.

I very much doubt whether the cars had only been there for the past 2 minutes as well...

There are better ways to remember events and people by being silent.

People have died to make sure you could have the freedom to make such an ungrateful, and frankly disgraceful, post.

Shame on you.

 

[455driver]

If ever I am at a station at 1059 on 11/11 the train train will wait until 1102, the pax are informed and there are usually quite a few stood on the platform with me and I have only had grief off 1 bloke (in a suit) who was very quickly put in his place by some squaddies on board.
I tell my manager beforehand and he doesnt have a problem with it.
Raildude, if your life is so hectic that you cant spare 2 minutes a YEAR then I feel sorry for you!

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Personally it's up to them, although it is very disrespectful IMHO. The cars would probably still have been there at 1102, so it's disappointing to hear that they couldn't just stand and be silent like everyone else.

Who knows, they may have had orders to the contrary - it's difficult to criticise them; if they don't want to observe the silence, it's not right to compel them to.

Working in a parking fines office i can confirm that there has been no orders either way. any orders would had been issued to the office too.

During the silence friday, my office was completely empty with everyone at the remembrance garden nearby

 

[snail]

People have died to make sure you could have the freedom to make such an ungrateful, and frankly disgraceful, post.

Shame on you.

Isn't that the point of freedom? As soon as you start forcing these types of views on people they quickly lose their impact.

The Armistice day remembrance is a fairly recent thing. Its impact has grown over recent years, please don't spoil that by forcing your views on others that don't see it from your point of view.

 

[Geezertronic]

I have never been issued a parking fine for stopping somewhere for 2 minutes. I suggest there is a lot more to this than is first reported. Past brushes with parking attendants have all been warning first rather than ticket issued first.

 

[Darandio]

I have never been issued a parking fine for stopping somewhere for 2 minutes. I suggest there is a lot more to this than is first reported. Past brushes with parking attendants have all been warning first rather than ticket issued first.

It wasn't suggested that the car had only been there for two minutes. It was the fact that the tickets were issued during the two minutes silence that prompted the thread.

 

[newbie babs]

Alter Ego

I did not swear or insult in my opinion

I can't understand how you praise and insult in the same breath though

My family situation is, both grandfathers, my cousin who was a major my father (conscripted) my brother RSM, me, my ex husband and two of my sons.

I did not join to go to war, I did not join for the money (lack of it in training) you pay for food and board, I did not join to fight as I joined to train a as nurse. I joined becasue I wanted to train in an an enviromnet that earnt respect, I could travel the world if the opportunity and I joined to "serve my country" and do the job I had wanted to since being 5.
For your information, when my son went to Basra in 2003 at 3 days over 18, as his mum it was the hardest thing I ever done to let him go, when he came back on Bonfire night I picked him up at the station in desert combats (no welcome home party for him) we called at the local shop a firework went off and he threw himself to the floor.

I have never been more proud of my two sons as when they went to do THIEIR JOB THEY CHOOSE, my son who came back was mentally scared by what he had endured, at that point their was no help, no doctors who knew about Combat stress and depression and no help getiing him back into civilian life. This is why families started raising money for the troops, because eventhough they choose this role, if your injured in a road accident or depressed in civilian life you are treated, at this point in 2004, there was no help because the Army did not recognise there was a problem.
Thats why poppy collection is so important.

One day if you are in trouble and get help medically, your lucky., its there for you and available.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I suggest there is a lot more to this than is first reported.

like the fact that i work for a parking office as explained earlier in thread and have seen the insensitivity by some enforcement officers

 

[AlterEgo]

Alter Ego

I did not swear or insult in my opinion

You did - you said I was talking out of my a*** and said I was talking a load of c***. The moderation team edited your abusive comments at my request, although I asked them to leave your opinion intact, as I respected your right to air a differing view to mine.

I can't understand how you praise and insult in the same breath though

How have I insulted anyone? Please explain.

I did not join to fight as I joined to train a as nurse. I joined becasue I wanted to train in an an enviromnet that earnt respect, I could travel the world if the opportunity and I joined to "serve my country" and do the job I had wanted to since being 5.

Yeah, great! Good for you. The Army is a great place to get qualifications and is a great place to work. I agree wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful career for those who like that kind of thing. More power to your elbow.

For your information, when my son went to Basra in 2003 at 3 days over 18, as his mum it was the hardest thing I ever done to let him go, when he came back on Bonfire night I picked him up at the station in desert combats (no welcome home party for him) we called at the local shop a firework went off and he threw himself to the floor.

That's sad to hear. I hope he is okay - none of my mates came back from Helmand with combat stress, but I've met people (friends of theirs) who have suffered. It's a debilitating mental illness that requires specialist care - I think we can both agree on that.

my son who came back was mentally scared by what he had endured, at that point their was no help, no doctors who knew about Combat stress and depression and no help getiing him back into civilian life. This is why families started raising money for the troops, because eventhough they choose this role, if your injured in a road accident or depressed in civilian life you are treated, at this point in 2004, there was no help because the Army did not recognise there was a problem.
Thats why poppy collection is so important.

One day if you are in trouble and get help medically, your lucky., its there for you and available.

That is a failing of our Government and the Ministry of Defence, and it is sad. I would personally love to see the MoD improve personalised care to victims of stress - that can only be a good thing.

However, to criticise me and pull me up for not buying a poppy is rather poor form. My uncle on my mother's side died aged 44 this year from an undetected heart problem. But I certainly would not criticise any person who chooses not to donate to heart research charities!

I understand that as a parent of a soldier you are upset and certainly do not agree with me. That's fine, and it is not my intention to cause upset. I've explained my views (which are by no means extreme) in a calm and polite manner, and taken great pains to reiterate my support and respect for men and women who do go into combat.

Perhaps you should re-read all of my posts and then please explain where I have insulted anyone. If I have insulted anyone, then I will apologise and be the bigger man. I did apologise to another poster (in another part of the forum) a few days ago after I made a needless comment which I did not mean, so please be assured I'm not here to cause upset.

I'm still not going to buy a poppy.

 

[David]

Isn't that the point of freedom? As soon as you start forcing these types of views on people they quickly lose their impact.

The Armistice day remembrance is a fairly recent thing. Its impact has grown over recent years, please don't spoil that by forcing your views on others that don't see it from your point of view.

1. I don't see how OT is trying to force his opinion on anyone else, it looks to me as though he is stating (albiet in strong terms) his own opinion.

2. What do you call recent? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? When I first moved to this part of Scunthorpe (and switched schools), all the junior school pupils had to go outside to the memorial in the playground for the 2 minutes silence and laying of the rememberence wreath. Because I was a new started at the school, it was me who layed the wreath and stood in front of everyone to lead the silence (the school did this to boost my confidence or so they told my parents). That was 25 years ago. I don't call that recent.

 

[anthony263]

This thread has become a bit of a squabble.

However I though I would air my views.

1st of all I do buy a poppy etc every year as well as giving money to other charities such as help for heroes, That doesnt mean I agree with every war though.

Iraq is one war that I dont agree with and I personally think invading Iraq is one of reason's why we are having some of the current problems in Afghanistan.

I do agree with the intervention in Libya and I personally think we should do an intervention in Siria as I think all this waiting around is making things worse.

 

[cdonnigan]

Irrespective of what day it is they should not of parked there in the first place. They should of left suitable time to find a correct space to park in.

 

[Yew]

Irrespective of what day it is they should not of parked there in the first place. They should of left suitable time to find a correct space to park in.

What about if their parking time ran out at 11:01?

 

[Darandio]

Irrespective of what day it is they should not of parked there in the first place. They should of left suitable time to find a correct space to park in.

How do you know they were not parked in a "correct" space?