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Leuchars to Glasgow via Dundee

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Murphyen

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Hello all,

Quick question - is there a permitted route between Leuchars via Dundee to Glasgow, or have the restrictions been relaxed? I've looked at the routing guide maps and the situation seems unclear. Similarly, the easements page states it's not permitted.

This question arises because the East Coast online system says its possible.

Any thoughts?
 
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scotsman

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If you want to take the route, and EC allows you to buy tickets for that route, then buy them from there - then take a printed copy of the itinery from that website (preferably a screenshot) to show to any Conductor who questions you
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hmm - not only is EC showing the journey as permitted, it is selling tickets for both routes and it also says that going via Dundee saves between 6 and 26 minutes. Railmiles shows that via Dundee is around 4 miles shorter too.
 

bb21

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There are debates on this forum as to whether the easement is enforceable, as I am sure Leuchars - Dundee - Glasgow is on the shortest route.

(Table 229) Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
(Table 229) Dundee - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street: 83.75 miles
Total: 92 miles

(Table 229) Leuchars - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Inverkeithing: 37.75 miles
(Table 242) Inverkeithing - Haymarket: 12 miles
(Table 226) Haymarket - Bathgate - Glasgow Queen Street: 43 miles
Total: 92.75 miles
 

glenbogle

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Working in the ticket office, we have always been told that Leu - Glq is NOT valid via Dundee in either direction.
 

yorkie

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Working in the ticket office, we have always been told that Leu - Glq is NOT valid via Dundee in either direction.
By what logic?

I'd ask the boss (or whoever told you) what their calculation of the shortest route is? As the shortest route (plus routes up to 3 miles longer) are always valid. They may just give a "because I said so" excuse, which I wouldn't accept.

The shortest route is valid according to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage without any need to consult the Routeing Guide.

Unfortunately ticket offices are sometimes told incorrect information. Southern are particularly bad at this at Gatwick/Victoria, where they will deny that the Gatwick Express branded services are operated by Southern, even though the Press Office, the DfT and the Gatwick Express site all say that they are.
 

glenbogle

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The fare between Dundee and Glasgow is a good bit dearer than Leuchars to Glasgow, if this fare was valid surely everyone from Dundee would get Leu-Glq tickets instead of Dee-Glq.
I work in Dundee and this has always been the case.
 

bb21

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The fare between Dundee and Glasgow is a good bit dearer than Leuchars to Glasgow, if this fare was valid surely everyone from Dundee would get Leu-Glq tickets instead of Dee-Glq.
I work in Dundee and this has always been the case.

Fares do not determine validity. In theory there is nothing stopping Dundee travellers buying the Leuchars ticket. The negative easement is unenforceable in my opinion.

That said, if enough people do it, SR will likely just raise the Leuchars fares to the level of Dundee's fares, unless it is protected.
 

Liam

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There are debates on this forum as to whether the easement is enforceable, as I am sure Leuchars - Dundee - Glasgow is on the shortest route.

(Table 229) Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
(Table 229) Dundee - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street: 83.75 miles
Total: 92 miles

(Table 229) Leuchars - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Inverkeithing: 37.75 miles
(Table 242) Inverkeithing - Haymarket: 12 miles
(Table 226) Haymarket - Bathgate - Glasgow Queen Street: 43 miles
Total: 92.75 miles

Ladybank-Glasgow via Perth is shorter than via Haymarket, but also appears not to be valid.

Could this be because of the Dalmeny-Winchburgh line? There is one service each way per day over this line, which would form the shortest route between Fife and Glasgow.
 

bb21

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Ladybank-Glasgow via Perth is shorter than via Haymarket, but also appears not to be valid.

Could this be because of the Dalmeny-Winchburgh line? There is one service each way per day over this line, which would form the shortest route between Fife and Glasgow.

(All from Table 229)

Leuchars - Ladybank: 11.75 miles
Ladybank - Perth: 17.75 miles
Total: 29.5 miles

Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
Dundee - Perth: 21.25 miles
Total: 29.5 miles

Either way doesn't make any difference.

Do you know the times of the Dalmeny - Winchburgh service? I was struggling to find it earlier.
 

Liam

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(All from Table 229)

Leuchars - Ladybank: 11.75 miles
Ladybank - Perth: 17.75 miles
Total: 29.5 miles

Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
Dundee - Perth: 21.25 miles
Total: 29.5 miles

Either way doesn't make any difference.

Read my post again.

Do you know the times of the Dalmeny - Winchburgh service? I was struggling to find it earlier.

0713 Kirkcaldy-Glasgow Queen Street, 1733 Glasgow Queen Street to Kirkcaldy/Markinch
 

Liam

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Yes, I understood your point. I'm saying that it makes no difference to the shortest route calculation.

I'm not sure you do. I was simply stating that Ladybank to Glasgow is shorter via Perth than Haymarket, but doesn't seem to be a valid route. It's got nothing to do with Leuchars.

FWIW Ladybank-Perth 17m66c, Perth-Glasgow Queen Street via Lenzie 62m47c. Ladybank-Haymarket 37m54c, Haymarket-Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High 46m04c. 80m33c versus 83m58c.
 

bb21

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I'm not sure you do. I was simply stating that Ladybank to Glasgow is shorter via Perth than Haymarket, but doesn't seem to be a valid route. It's got nothing to do with Leuchars.

FWIW Ladybank-Perth 17m66c, Perth-Glasgow Queen Street via Lenzie 62m47c. Ladybank-Haymarket 37m54c, Haymarket-Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High 46m04c. 80m33c versus 83m58c.

I wasn't saying that your point wasn't valid. I was talking about something separate using your information. I probably didn't make it clear.

That said, there is no mileage entry for Dalmeny - Linlithgow, as with all other services that are not 'regular' in a passenger's eyes. If it had existed, no doubt that would be the shortest route.
 

yorkie

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The fare between Dundee and Glasgow is a good bit dearer than Leuchars to Glasgow, if this fare was valid surely everyone from Dundee would get Leu-Glq tickets instead of Dee-Glq.
I work in Dundee and this has always been the case.
The CDR fare between York and Sheffield is dearer than York to Shireoaks, if this was valid, surely everyone from Sheffield would get Shireoaks-York tickets rather than Sheffield-York tickets...?;)

Well, no, I don't think they do, because not everyone knows about it! But I know a few people who use these tickets.

I have used an example that can't easily be changed (via Sheffield is permitted on the shortest route rule, and Sheffield passes the fares check rule, but the Shireoaks fare is set by EC, and if XC/NT were to request the Shireoaks fare be increased, then that could be considered collusion, and as EC are subject to FOI, that wouldn't be a wise thing for them to do!)
 

John @ home

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there is no mileage entry for Dalmeny - Linlithgow, as with all other services that are not 'regular' in a passenger's eyes. If it had existed, no doubt that would be the shortest route.
This statement implies that a route is not the shortest route unless the distance can be calculated from the National Rail Timetable. I don't agree with that.

The National Routeing Guide Instructions tell us "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable." That does not mean that the shortest route ceases to be the shortest route if an error or omission in the National Rail Timetable means that the distance cannot be calculated using that document alone.

For quick calculations, I use railmiles to work out these missing distances. But if I intend to travel by such a shortest route, I print out the distance from an authorised source. At present I use Table A from Network Rail's electronic Sectional Appendix, which was placed on their site in 2009. WARNING: These are very large files!

A Leuchars - Glasgow Cen/QSt route Any Permitted ticket is valid, at the passenger's choice, to either Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street. By my calculations, permitted routes are:
  1. The route taken by a through train, when travelling on such a train
    There are none in the current timetable.
    .
  2. The shortest route
    For Leuchars - Glasgow Queen Street, this is Leuchars - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Burntisland - Inverkeithing - Dalmeny - (Kirkliston) - Linlithgow - Falkirk High - Croy - Glasgow Queen Street. (approx 81 miles)
    For Leuchars - Glasgow Central, this is For Leuchars - Glasgow Queen Street as above, then Glasgow Queen Street (Low Level) - Partick - Glasgow Central (Low Level). (approx 85.5 miles)

    The journey opportunities by the shortest route are very limited:
    Monday to Friday only

    0617 Leuchars - Kirkcaldy 0649
    0713 Kirkcaldy - Linlithgow 0758
    0804 Linlithgow - Glasgow Queen Street 0840

    1745 Glasgow Queen Street - Linlithgow 1814
    1816 Linlithgow - Kirkcaldy 1904
    1911 Kirkcaldy - Leuchars 1940
    Additional changes are needed at Linlithgow to complete the journey by the shortest route because the direct Kirkcaldy - Glasgow Queen Street train is routed via Falkirk Grahamston, not Falkirk High.

    This raises the question of what is the shortest route when there is no service via Kirkliston. When there is no railway service at all by that route on any day on which a ticket is valid, then I have no doubt that another route is the shortest route for the purposes of that ticket. This applies to Day tickets and the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets dated for a Saturday or Sunday. Whether it applies at times of the day when there is no service via Kirkliston is a matter of interpretation. The journey planners have different interpretations here.

    I agree with bb21 that the shortest route avoiding Kirkliston is via Dundee (92 miles).
    .
  3. A route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route
    This allows travel via Dunfermline instead of Kirkcaldy and/or Falkirk Grahamston instead of Falkirk High.

    On days when the shortest route is via Dundee, routes not more than 3 miles longer include
    • via Ladybank, Newburgh and Perth
    • via Haymarket and Bathgate
    • via Haymarket and Falkirk High, and
    • via Haymarket and Falkirk Grahamston.
    .
  4. A route permitted by an Easement
    I can't find any.
    .
  5. A route excluded by a (negative) Easement
    Easement 46 purports to exclude travel via Dundee.
    Easement 46

    Journeys from Cupar or Leuchars to Stirling or Glasgow are not permitted via Dundee. This prohibition applies in both directions.
    But this cannot apply on days when the shortest route is via Dundee because the NRG tells us we don't need to consult the NRG when travelling by the shortest route - it's always valid. I think this is the reason some journey planners allow travel via Dundee.
 

jopsuk

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I wonder if at some point ATOC will alter the Conditions of Carriage in such a way as to make negative easements such as this enforcable (and to make journeys such as Haymarket-Waverly via the Fife circle, and other such circular journies, non-valid). I wouldn't be surprised if it is something that is already being worked on, carefully with lawyers involved.

It is quite clear here that they want you to travel via Haymarket, yet I'm persuaded by the well set out arguments here that the letter of the rules means that they cannot enforce this.

I'd bet that most travllers making this journey would automatically default to going via Haymarket, as it seems the "sensible" route- despite it being physically longer and taking longer!
 

D6975

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The route taken by a through train, when travelling on such a train

Love that one, as someone points out, that makes Haymarket-Waverley valid round the Fife circle.
Likewise, Leeds-Wakefield Kirkgate is valid via Bradford and Huddersfield.
I'm sure we could come up with quite a few like that.

Many years ago I used to do Bristol TM - Newport on a Caldicot ticket because it was cheaper and at the time, Newport-Caldicot services didn't stop at STJ, so you had to go via Newport..
 

bb21

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Thanks John. I do not use railmiles for such calculation as it is not official, however the Network Rail table definitely is, and will be useful in circumstances like this.
 
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