High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Invincibles]

As I understand it, German and Japanese high speed lines use points with diverging routes allowing above 110mph and no major restrictions on the through route, but I might be wrong on the latter.

Either way, once you have near fully motored axle trains decelerating for points is a minor concern.

Chinese trains do not seem to slow down too much on the approaches to stations.

Most stations here are 1-3 platforms in each direction off the main running line, with stations spaced sometimes as little as a few miles apart.

This sort of model seems ideal for the UK, where only very few stations really would be served by every train, for example London - Birmingham - Manchester - Carlisle - Glasgow would be fine.

 

[Squaddie]

If you want to see where the money is being spent look at this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0177101

HS2 and Crossral are nothing compared with what is being spent on building windmills in the middle of the sea.

Would you prefer that we continued to build coal-fired or nuclear power stations instead?

Renewable energy or a couple of hundred miles of high-speed railway? I know what your grandchildren will want us to have spent the money on.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Would you prefer that we continued to build coal-fired or nuclear power stations instead?

Renewable energy or a couple of hundred miles of high-speed railway? I know what your grandchildren will want us to have spent the money on.

Wind is not reliable. You build a wind farm then you have to build the conventional power station anyway because you need it when the wind is not blowing. Coal; and Nuclear are not going away. I would rather we just forgot about wind power. Its a waste of time and money.


If you know what my grandchildren want can you also tell us how HS2 turned out and the next lot of winning lottery numbers?

John
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So let each leg be privately financed and privately owned when completed. And compete on a basis of time and price with stopping trains on the classic lines.

London to Leeds, half the price for twice the journey time on Network Rail versus HS2 (or some such); which do you want? There is a market for both.

Sorry but while there are private companies wanting to build railways with Taxpayers money there are no private companies willing to build High Speed lines with their own money.

John

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So let each leg be privately financed and privately owned when completed. And compete on a basis of time and price with stopping trains on the classic lines.....London to Leeds, half the price for twice the journey time on Network Rail versus HS2 (or some such); which do you want? There is a market for both.

Something on the same lines as the M6 and the M6 Toll Road?

 

[tbtc]

Going york Birmingham London instead of York Doncaster London is hardly an improvement

If its faster then are people really going to be too worried where it goes "via"?

You wouldn't travel from Glasgow to Newcastle via Carstairs and Haymarket if you were driving it, but that is the route that the train takes. If HS2 via Birmingham is a faster way to London than the ECML then people will take HS2 (unless the price differential is too great)

 

[Gareth]

Surely it makes no sense to build from the north. As HS2 will, as far as it appears, only link the north (well, trendy regional capitals Manchester & Leeds) with London and not Birmingham, it won't make much sense. At least the other way, Birmingham to London will be operational whilst they extend the route northwards.

 

[Zoe]

As HS2 will, as far as it appears, only link the north (well, trendy regional capitals Manchester & Leeds) with London and not Birmingham

As far as I know, it will (if built that far) link Manchester and Leeds with Birmingham. I have been told that is a key reason for the line going via Birmingham and not directly to Manchester/Leeds with a branch to Birmingham.

 

[Gareth]

Forgive me if I'm going on outdated plans, but I though Birmingham was on a branch, although a station for the airport would be on the throughline north.

 

[Zoe]

Forgive me if I'm going on outdated plans, but I though Birmingham was on a branch, although a station for the airport would be on the throughline north.

The Central Birmingham station itself will be on a branch but the main line itself passes very close to Birmingham so it would still be used for Manchester to Birmingham journeys with either a change at the airport or some services direct to Central Birmingham.

 

[DXMachina]

Would you prefer that we continued to build coal-fired or nuclear power stations instead?

Renewable energy or a couple of hundred miles of high-speed railway? I know what your grandchildren will want us to have spent the money on.

Yes, we need far more nuclear power as phasing off gas and oil for environmental reasons is going to cause electricity demand to spiral. Wind isnt fit for purpose.

 

[JohnCarlson]

If its faster then are people really going to be too worried where it goes "via"?

You wouldn't travel from Glasgow to Newcastle via Carstairs and Haymarket if you were driving it, but that is the route that the train takes. If HS2 via Birmingham is a faster way to London than the ECML then people will take HS2 (unless the price differential is too great)

My existing journey time from York to London is about 2hr - 2:15. London to Birmingham via HS2 is going to be 50min at best then just looking at the map would suggest another 50min plus to Leeds then another 20 min by the existing link to York. The time is basically the same, I suspect if built, the time Via HS2 would actually be longer.


So Is HS2 going to give me cheaper tickets than East Coast for using their slower service.

John
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Surely it makes no sense to build from the north. As HS2 will, as far as it appears, only link the north (well, trendy regional capitals Manchester & Leeds) with London and not Birmingham, it won't make much sense. At least the other way, Birmingham to London will be operational whilst they extend the route northwards.

People in the north don't see it that way. Your also forgetting that we have just lost a shed load of public sector jobs and with the Green legislation now destroying our industrial base spending 15 billion on HS2 London- Birmingham when that section has just had an upgrade, that area has relatively good employment and many people there don't seem to want the thing is starting to look like a sick joke.

John

 

[Philip Elliott]

Something on the same lines as the M6 and the M6 Toll Road?

The M6 Toll has less traffic now than when it opended. Also total traffic through the channel tunnel (Eurostar + Le Shuttle) is also less than a decade ago....

 

[sprinterguy]

My existing journey time from York to London is about 2hr - 2:15. London to Birmingham via HS2 is going to be 50min at best then just looking at the map would suggest another 50min plus to Leeds then another 20 min by the existing link to York. The time is basically the same, I suspect if built, the time Via HS2 would actually be longer.

All the DfT released documents claim, quite boldy IMO, journey times on HS2 from London to Leeds of 1 hour 20 minutes, so say about 1 hour 45 mins to York.

Bear in mind that the opening of HS2 may come with the deceleration of ECML and WCML services, so that they accomodate more regular stops, smooth out the speed profile of the routes, and generally make HS2 a more attractive proposition.

 

[tbtc]

A united thread for all HS2 discussion?

HURRAH!

 

[YorkshireBear]

A united thread for all HS2 discussion?

HURRAH!

A-men to that glad that the vote got passed.

 

[HSTEd]

All the DfT released documents claim, quite boldy IMO, journey times on HS2 from London to Leeds of 1 hour 20 minutes, so say about 1 hour 45 mins to York.

Bear in mind that the opening of HS2 may come with the deceleration of ECML and WCML services, so that they accomodate more regular stops, smooth out the speed profile of the routes, and generally make HS2 a more attractive proposition.

So I have to work out a proposal to get trains from King's Cross to York in something on order of 1 hour 40 minutes to enable the ECML to survive as an InterCity corridor.

TO THE CALCULATION CAVE!

*jumps towards a fireman pole and smashes into it*


Also very glad that that vote succeeded

 

[YorkshireBear]

All the DfT released documents claim, quite boldy IMO, journey times on HS2 from London to Leeds of 1 hour 20 minutes, so say about 1 hour 45 mins to York.

Bear in mind that the opening of HS2 may come with the deceleration of ECML and WCML services, so that they accomodate more regular stops, smooth out the speed profile of the routes, and generally make HS2 a more attractive proposition.

Well that is a good point, It would probably improve the service on the E/WCML making it more reliable and efficent for semi fast services. Whether that is good i don't really know but i imagine your right with what you said would happen post HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

Well that is a good point, It would probably improve the service on the E/WCML making it more reliable and efficent for semi fast services. Whether that is good i don't really know but i imagine your right with what you said would happen post HS2.

That might be viable for the WCML but there isnt anywhere really between Doncaster and Peterborough that isnt already served well enough as it is, the stations are widely spaced without any minor ones that are served only by "local trains".
Only place that additional service could be done with is Retford.

Decelleration would be merely to force people onto HS2 where they can charge more and making HS2 look like a better deal than it actually was, and thats before we get to my aforementioned nightmare scenario of FCC Outer Suburban trains being the "London" Service for stations like Grantham and Newark.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Well that is a good point, It would probably improve the service on the E/WCML making it more reliable and efficent for semi fast services. Whether that is good i don't really know but i imagine your right with what you said would happen post HS2.

Then that makes spending money on HS2 a rubbish idea then dosnt it.

John

 

[YorkshireBear]

Then that makes spending money on HS2 a rubbish idea then dosnt it.

John

Not if it gives a better local service to places currently bypassed mostly.... but i dont agree that they shoudl slow down the ECML and WCML for the benefit of the case for HS2

 

[Bigmilly]

Hey there,

Just a question on where abouts in Leeds a HS2 train station would actually be placed once (or if) the full network is up and running (without the use of existing lines).

The reason I ask is due to me currently writing a report for a module at uni and I’m struggling on deciding whether the existing Leeds station could somehow accommodate the HS2 platforms if extended, or if a new station entirely would have to be constructed further outside of the city.

Thanks for your input

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hey there,

Just a question on where abouts in Leeds a HS2 train station would actually be placed once (or if) the full network is up and running (without the use of existing lines).

The reason I ask is due to me currently writing a report for a module at uni and I’m struggling on deciding whether the existing Leeds station could somehow accommodate the HS2 platforms if extended, or if a new station entirely would have to be constructed further outside of the city.

Thanks for your input

Uni of Leeds?

In short i really dont believe the current leeds station could. It is already pretty full with little room for extension. Especially considering the length of HS trains compared to conventional. They are already struggling with room to expand it for current conventional rail demand.

Have you found any possible sites or a complete blank canvas?

 

[Invincibles]

The M1 junction by Cross Gates, that is where I would place it.

London to Leeds trains could use a chord to go in on the classic route, but I expect the new station would get popular over time as all the people of south and east Leeds realise it is easier to get there than go into the city centre station with the associated congestion.

 

[WatcherZero]

Was an interview with HS2 Ltd a couple of weeks ago where they said the Leeds station will probably be a city centre terminus, that if they were planning routes to Newcastle or Scotland from the start if would probably have been on the fringes and a through station but as they were ordered to construct the 'Y' it would limit planning for the future.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Uni of Leeds?

In short i really dont believe the current leeds station could. It is already pretty full with little room for extension. Especially considering the length of HS trains compared to conventional. They are already struggling with room to expand it for current conventional rail demand.

Have you found any possible sites or a complete blank canvas?

Looking at Leeds station on Google earth, which is often a good place to start for this kind of thing there is SOME potential for expansion. However there seem to be many proposals for the expansion of TPE and Northern services and indeed even the introduction of London Underground stock. How easily two or more 400m meter trains would fit in I don't know. I think some of Leeds station car park is going to be turned back into platforms.

Would that long disused trackbed that leads out of Leeds station to the south be any use for anything. You could built two HS2 platforms along that.


I wonder of the site of Leeds central would have been of use?

 

[Nym]

If I'm getting the former location of Leeds Central right, I don't think on it's own it would be much use, but if the land is available it could be used to terminate commuter services and push them away from Leeds City, freeing up space for two HS2 platforms, or more in the car park.

 

[JohnCarlson]

If I'm getting the former location of Leeds Central right, I don't think on it's own it would be much use, but if the land is available it could be used to terminate commuter services and push them away from Leeds City, freeing up space for two HS2 platforms, or more in the car park.

Some of the land has been built on. The viaduct itself is now listed.
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If I'm getting the former location of Leeds Central right, I don't think on it's own it would be much use, but if the land is available it could be used to terminate commuter services and push them away from Leeds City, freeing up space for two HS2 platforms, or more in the car park.

I don't know hat goes where in Leeds very well but if you were to convert some local services into tram-train you might be able to bring them into the city that way.

 

[Bigmilly]

Jimmy Owl;

Yeah not the Met. (Hah usual rivalry coming out there)
Hmm I think you are right as they are already thinking of expanding the platforms further like John Carlson said, also I found that they are making a southern entrance in the future which also looks a tight squeeze in itself. Still I do think it would be better to keep a HS2 station in the city centre as moving 1000+ passengers 3 x an hour from say an outer station to the centre must be difficult?
Only places that come to mind would be two brownfield sites, one on Whitehall Road right near Globe Road (possibly using the carpark aswell) and a place on Sweet Street West (which appears to have an old factory there, although it may have been torn down now). As for blank canvasses Cross Gates that Invincibles mentioned does seem really viable, as for me I just found one right near White Rose Shopping Centre although it does seem far out.

Invincibles;
If I went for a station on the out skirts it does seem pretty viable to put it there, out of looking at all other areas around the Leeds suburbs I was struggling to find anywhere else apart from White Rose to be honest, so thanks for the info!

WatcherZero;
Hmm for the purpose of the report I was asked to look at just the Birmingham to Leeds section, but the grand scheme of the easterly HS2 section would be to link up Newcastle and Scotland aswell, so i’m still quite torn between either putting a station in the centre or on the fringes.

John Carlson;
Well that trackbed does look pretty promising but the full station would have to be elevated and I gather the high speed trains would have to use existing track at some points to enter Leeds as there just doesn’t seem to be any room at all to put in a new segregated high speed track unless a lot of Leeds was bulldozed...

Nym;
There does seem to be some brownfield sites about where a local station could be created as I think platforms 1 – 5 in Leeds run local services, which could be moved thus making room for HS2 platforms if the car park was rearranged, I’m just speculating though.

Thanks again for all your input, it’s given me a lot to think about.

 

[es373]

im all for HS2 however i do fear that once construction has started, it shall stop purely for the reason of environmentalists.....

look at evergreen phase 3, £120m investment which is now a sitting duck due to a bats nesting ground...

pssh.

 

[deltic]

Hey there,

Just a question on where abouts in Leeds a HS2 train station would actually be placed once (or if) the full network is up and running (without the use of existing lines).

The reason I ask is due to me currently writing a report for a module at uni and I’m struggling on deciding whether the existing Leeds station could somehow accommodate the HS2 platforms if extended, or if a new station entirely would have to be constructed further outside of the city.

Thanks for your input

There is talk of the HS2 station being built north of the existing station on the present car park and if further expansion of Leeds City is required then the old Leeds central station site could be used.