Class 508s at Banbury

[didcot]

Anyone know where two Class 508 units were on their way to today.

Seen waiting at Banbury, heading southbound at 1400 with barrier caoches & being hauled by a GBR 66

 

[swt_passenger]

From Donnington to Eastleigh Works for further storage.

 

[didcot]

Thanks for the reply

 

[DXMachina]

Storage?

With such a shortage of AC commuter stock why can't they be used to displace something dual-voltage into the north where it'd be used?

 

[MCR247]

Nope, 313s were chosen over 508s

 

[NSEFAN]

The 508s going to Eastleigh are the ex-Southeastern ones. They are generally useless in their current condition, as they were not looked after by their previous owners.

 

[507 001]

Storage?

With such a shortage of AC commuter stock why can't they be used to displace something dual-voltage into the north where it'd be used?

Because they are absolutely F****D to put it bluntly.

They are worse than the ex silverlink 508/3's

 

[fgwrich]

Because they are absolutely F****D to put it bluntly.

They are worse than the ex silverlink 508/3's

Yep!

If you wan't to see how bad they are externally...Just take a look at some of Carl Watson pictures...

http://carlswatson.com/trains.html

As for Internally - Most still retain the ex NSE interiors, with the South Eastern Version 5.XXXX Livery were slightly modified interally, to i think carry bikes and lugguage on the Tonbridge to Redhill/Gatwick to London Bridge services ( God...Imagine using those for that service!) But other than that, i don't think there was that much interior work done...But other than thats already said, underneath...I would also described them as, in being polite, shot to pieces - you just have to see how many have come down by road to see that!

 

[507 001]

Yep!

If you wan't to see how bad they are externally...Just take a look at some of Carl Watson pictures...

http://carlswatson.com/trains.html

As for Internally - Most still retain the ex NSE interiors, with the South Eastern Version 5.XXXX Livery were slightly modified interally, to i think carry bikes and lugguage on the Tonbridge to Redhill/Gatwick to London Bridge services ( God...Imagine using those for that service!) But other than that, i don't think there was that much interior work done...But other than thats already said, underneath...I would also described them as, in being polite, shot to pieces - you just have to see how many have come down by road to see that!

Are they literally just going for storage at the moment or is any work planned on them?

 

[fgwrich]

Nope, Just storage as far as im aware of.

 

[tbtc]

I know that this will sound a bit simplistic but...

If there is no hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then scrap them (and stop wasting money on storage etc).

If there is hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then get them into service. If we can't find the funds to get them upgraded now (with an EMU shortage, despite new lines being electrified over the next few years) then when?

I accept that units can't just go on forever, but someone needs to bite the bullet and decide whether we seriously rebuild them or just consign them for scrap. Shuffling them around the country like this doesn't help anyone.

 

[507 001]

I know that this will sound a bit simplistic but...

If there is no hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then scrap them (and stop wasting money on storage etc).

If there is hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then get them into service. If we can't find the funds to get them upgraded now (with an EMU shortage, despite new lines being electrified over the next few years) then when?

I accept that units can't just go on forever, but someone needs to bite the bullet and decide whether we seriously rebuild them or just consign them for scrap. Shuffling them around the country like this doesn't help anyone.

My thoughts exactly. The same goes for all the stuff at long marston etc, whose paying for it all? why not just get rid of it and be done. If somebody wants one, then let them have it at scrap value and let them sort it out.

 

[tbtc]

My thoughts exactly. The same goes for all the stuff at long marston etc, whose paying for it all? why not just get rid of it and be done. If somebody wants one, then let them have it at scrap value and let them sort it out.

Gets my vote.

The "leaving stuff rusting in sidings" seems to be a hangover from BR days.

If its not economic to get things brought "back to life" in the current stock shortage then it never will be.

 

[fgwrich]

I know that this will sound a bit simplistic but...

If there is no hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then scrap them (and stop wasting money on storage etc).

If there is hope of getting them into service (at a sensible price), then get them into service. If we can't find the funds to get them upgraded now (with an EMU shortage, despite new lines being electrified over the next few years) then when?

I accept that units can't just go on forever, but someone needs to bite the bullet and decide whether we seriously rebuild them or just consign them for scrap. Shuffling them around the country like this doesn't help anyone.

Something i totally agree with!

Apart from the obvious (Pantograph, Transformer etc), how different electrically are the 508s to 313s? Just thinking up the idea of rebuilding merseyrail style the 508s into duel voltage EMUs for suburban type services in the North West?...

 

[87015]

I accept that units can't just go on forever, but someone needs to bite the bullet and decide whether we seriously rebuild them or just consign them for scrap. Shuffling them around the country like this doesn't help anyone.

They have only just gone off-lease. The Rosco is at least showing some interest by getting them to Eastleigh where there is some potential for getting them under cover and on the juice if they are not too far gone. Unlike Southeastern who in true govia tradition took the cheap and nasty option and just dumped them in the cheapest place possible.

I presume they were written out of the franchise at some stage as they have clearly not been returned in the condition they were inherited in...?

 

[sonic2009]

You could give them a Major Refurb. How ever many there are give one to SWT for lymington, train drivers etc on them, then give the rest to Southern.

 

[Lampshade]

Something i totally agree with!

Apart from the obvious (Pantograph, Transformer etc), how different electrically are the 508s to 313s? Just thinking up the idea of rebuilding merseyrail style the 508s into duel voltage EMUs for suburban type services in the North West?...

They're virtually identical, being based on the 1972 'PEP' EMU design. It would have made much more sense for Southern to refurb the 508s instead and transfer the 313s to somewhere AC.

 

[NSEFAN]

It wouldn't be a good idea to have 1 unit for SWT; you'd need several others to cover for it. There's a reason Chiltern now has 2 bubble cars now!

Having a non-standard fleet also adds onto the costs. The heritage CIGs were withdrawn earlier than originally planned because of maintenance costs. I guess you could refurb these 508s and give them to Southern, but my understanding is that it would cost more than it's worth given how badly the units have been treated.

I'd argue it would be better to raid them for spares to help keep the 507s and 508s on Merseyrail working, then scrap them. The class is nearly 40 years old, so it's only going to get harder to obtain cheap new parts.

 

[507 001]

It wouldn't be a good idea to have 1 unit for SWT; you'd need several others to cover for it. There's a reason Chiltern now has 2 bubble cars now!

Having a non-standard fleet also adds onto the costs. The heritage CIGs were withdrawn earlier than originally planned because of maintenance costs. I guess you could refurb these 508s and give them to Southern, but my understanding is that it would cost more than it's worth given how badly the units have been treated.

I'd argue it would be better to raid them for spares to help keep the 507s and 508s on Merseyrail working, then scrap them. The class is nearly 40 years old, so it's only going to get harder to obtain cheap new parts.

they're nowhere near 40 years, In fact the 508's are 30 this year! Introduced 1981-82, the 507's are a little older being of 1977-78 vintage, but I suppose they are still getting a bit long in the tooth now. Although if you ask me they are better than they have ever been, the Merseyrail 507's/8's and the southern 313's show just what a decent train they are! I believe the Prod PEP's are still among the fastest accelerating EMU's in the country? I wish they had done a DMU version instead of the pacers/150's

From what I remember, they were extremely prone to motor flashovers and shorts in the last couple of years in service, so they maybe of little use even as spares.

In reality, never mind southern, they could do with being completely rebuilt (to current 508 standard) and sent up to merseyrail, who at several points over the last couple of years have been very short of units (50 of 53 units are needed for a daily service apparently, and at the moment theres only actually 52). But then, in reality merseyrail needs to concentrate on getting wabtec to finish 002 and getting that back in service before they take anything else on.

It would actually be quite difficult to add transformer equipment to the 508's. The bodywork is identical, as are the traction motors, switch gear, resistor banks etc, but you would have to find the appropriate pantograph and convert the TOS, as well as rectifiers etc. The traction motors are DC.

 

[fgwrich]

...It would actually be quite difficult to add transformer equipment to the 508's. The bodywork is identical, as are the traction motors, switch gear, resistor banks etc, but you would have to find the appropriate pantograph and convert the TOS, as well as rectifiers etc. The traction motors are DC.

Ah...Mind you, there's always some of the ex 313 equipment going spare from Southern, from the now not so duel voltage Southern 313s (Pantograph removed, not sure as to whether the transformer has been too!)...

 

[NSEFAN]

they're nowhere near 40 years, In fact the 508's are 30 this year! Introduced 1981-82, the 507's are a little older being of 1977-78 vintage, but I suppose they are still getting a bit long in the tooth now. Although if you ask me they are better than they have ever been, the Merseyrail 507's/8's and the southern 313's show just what a decent train they are! I believe the Prod PEP's are still among the fastest accelerating EMU's in the country? I wish they had done a DMU version instead of the pacers/150's

Doh! I was confusing their age with that of the general PEP design! They are indeed a good design, although I don't know how well a diesel version would do. Sprinters are pretty good at acceleration already.

In reality, never mind southern, they could do with being completely rebuilt (to current 508 standard) and sent up to merseyrail, who at several points over the last couple of years have been very short of units (50 of 53 units are needed for a daily service apparently, and at the moment theres only actually 52). But then, in reality merseyrail needs to concentrate on getting wabtec to finish 002 and getting that back in service before they take anything else on.

Do you know if Southern have any plans to replace their 313s with new trains in the not-so-distant future? If so would their 313s be suitable for Merseyrail, or would the 507s/508s be replaced with, say, 378s by then?

 

[tbtc]

Do you know if Southern have any plans to replace their 313s with new trains in the not-so-distant future?

I think that they are struggling to cope with existing demand, hence the plan for a new order of 377s (since they won't be getting the EMUs back from Thameslink soon enough), which means replacement of the 313s has probably been pushed back a few years.

 

[507 001]

Ah...Mind you, there's always some of the ex 313 equipment going spare from Southern, from the now not so duel voltage Southern 313s (Pantograph removed, not sure as to whether the transformer has been too!)...

In that case it would probably be easier to put it back into the 313's, overhaul the 508's and give them to southern!

Doh! I was confusing their age with that of the general PEP design! They are indeed a good design, although I don't know how well a diesel version would do. Sprinters are pretty good at acceleration already.



Do you know if Southern have any plans to replace their 313s with new trains in the not-so-distant future? If so would their 313s be suitable for Merseyrail, or would the 507s/508s be replaced with, say, 378s by then?

true they are pretty good at acceleration, but compared to the pep design, the interiors are quite cramped I find. Which is strange considering they are wider and taller!

313's would work perfectly well up here. I can't remember which one's but 2 313's came up to merseyrail on test before the 507's were ordered, but you would have the same dilemma, why use AC capable stock on DC only lines?

 

[NSEFAN]

true they are pretty good at acceleration, but compared to the pep design, the interiors are quite cramped I find. Which is strange considering they are wider and taller!

313's would work perfectly well up here. I can't remember which one's but 2 313's came up to merseyrail on test before the 507's were ordered, but you would have the same dilemma, why use AC capable stock on DC only lines?

I guess the PEP range were designed for high density commuter networks, whereas the sprinters were maybe aimed at secondary routes? There's a reason PEP is said to stand for "Pack 'Em Perpendicular"!

The point about AC-enabled stock is a good one, but how many lines in the north have AC/DC systems? The only ones I know of in the UK are the North London Line and the Northern City route. The NLL is obviously done with the 313s; I suppose FCC could use some more units and release some of their 321s or 317s to another operator? This might be a problem if 75mph 313s end up on 100mph diagrams, though!

EDIT:
If overhead wires ever get to Chester and beyond, then I can see there being a use for dual voltage units, assuming Merseyrail took some more services. I am unfamiliar with the exact routing of the network in Merseyside, so I don't know of any other places where the changeover between AC and DC could occur. Please correct my ignorance!

 

[Nym]

NSEFAN:

On Merseyrail:

Southport (if it gets 25kV to Wigan)
Kirby
Omskirk
Hunts Cross / Liverpool S Parkway
Bisdon (possibly)

 

[NSEFAN]

Thanks Nym.

Do any of those places currently have a through service that could be worked by dual voltage units?

 

[Nym]

The only place where it would be possible to work a dual voltage unit (thanks to being the only place on my list that IS electrified, and not just on the wish list) would be Hunts Bank / Liverpool S Parkway

Working a service through from Liverpool Central onto Crewe with dual voltage would be a possibility (I believe the pointwork is there)

 

[507 001]

The only place where it would be possible to work a dual voltage unit (thanks to being the only place on my list that IS electrified, and not just on the wish list) would be Hunts Bank / Liverpool S Parkway

Working a service through from Liverpool Central onto Crewe with dual voltage would be a possibility (I believe the pointwork is there)

yes the point work is there, but why would you want to? Central is full to capacity anyway and there is already a decent service from lime street that would no doubt be quicker.

 

[Julia]

It beggars belief that the rosco didn't intervene at any point, given that an asset of theirs was being so maltreated by Southeastern. I guess it makes no difference to them whether the units they hire out are used or not, but surely the lease contracts must be priced according to the work required to re-lease them, and on the assumption that the toc won't simply hand back a skipful of rust at the end of however many years...?

 

[route:oxford]

It beggars belief that the rosco didn't intervene at any point, given that an asset of theirs was being so maltreated by Southeastern. I guess it makes no difference to them whether the units they hire out are used or not, but surely the lease contracts must be priced according to the work required to re-lease them, and on the assumption that the toc won't simply hand back a skipful of rust at the end of however many years...?

The sum of fine + spare parts might exceed value of usable units.