Doubling back due to access issues

[blakey1152]

I was wondering if "doubling back" on yourself may be allowed by a TOC in certain circumstances.

Example...Travelling from Dartford to Erith using a day return with a baby buggy

A lone parent with a baby buggy would have no chance of leaving Erith Station in this direction as the only exit is on the countrybound side and there are quite a few steps to negotiate which would be virtually impossible with a baby buggy in tow!
In this instance would you be permitted to travel to the next station down (Belvedere) and use the public foot bridge outside of the station to cross to the other side and travel back to Erith?

Chris

 

[wintonian]

It's allowed for those who use a wheelchair.

 

[LexyBoy]

It would be entirely at the discretion of the TOC (I would say guard, but two trains would be required). I think the answer would probably be no.

I'd imagine someone in a wheelchair would be treated differently; there may be obligations under the DDA for the TOC to make provisions in such a case, but I don't know. (edit: wintonian beat me to it!)

 

[Smethwickian]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

So no, why should you make routes up as you go along when the rest of us might have to pay extra to double back or take a scenic wander around the network?

And yes, of course, TOCs are usually helpful to disabled persons and offer alternatives, particularly if travellers take the precaution of contacting the operator before travelling.

 

[wintonian]

To clarify the routing guide says this:

DISABLED TRAVELLERS
Train Operating Companies may make special arrangements for disabled
customers and an accompanying passenger via the Disabled Persons
Reporting System (DPRS). Provided these arrangements are made in
accordance with the procedures laid down in the Manual, they will override
the requirements of the Routeing Guide. All staff involved in revenue
protection duties will be advised, on each individual occasion, of customers
who are exempted under these arrangements.

So its not explicitly allowed but but I would be surprised if a TOC prevented someone from doubling back if the station would be inaccessible otherwise, unless of course they provide a taxi or there are safety reasons.

 

[dvboy]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

So no, why should you make routes up as you go along when the rest of us might have to pay extra to double back or take a scenic wander around the network?

And yes, of course, TOCs are usually helpful to disabled persons and offer alternatives, particularly if travellers take the precaution of contacting the operator before travelling.

If you can't afford a car, you can't afford a baby.

 

[LexyBoy]

If you can't afford a car, you can't afford a baby.

The spirit of Thatcher lives on I see

Not only is your statement wrong, but there are lots of reasons not to own a car, or not to drive for a particular journey.

 

[blakey1152]

It would be entirely at the discretion of the TOC (I would say guard, but two trains would be required). I think the answer would probably be no.

I'd imagine someone in a wheelchair would be treated differently; there may be obligations under the DDA for the TOC to make provisions in such a case, but I don't know. (edit: wintonian beat me to it!)

Just for fun..I'll e-mail customer service at Southeastern and see what they respond back with!

Chris
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you can't afford a car, you can't afford a baby.

I prefer to use public transport rather than pollute the atmosphere even more by driving a car everywhere.
I have no desire to even learn to drive as living in London I find that the public transport network is more than adequate for travelling about and I believe that the ability to wheel a baby buggy onto a bus or train far outweighs the inconvienence of folding down the buggy, playing around with car seats etc etc.

Chris

 

[talltim]

The spirit of Thatcher lives on I see

Not only is your statement wrong, but there are lots of reasons not to own a car, or not to drive for a particular journey.

And you don't need to have herds of kids to have buggy, just the one. Although myself, I just lift the whole thing kids and all, over footbridges, it's not really an option for my wife.
I completely don't see why you should drive if you have kids.
Remember, those kids will be paying for and looking after you when you get old

 

[blakey1152]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

So no, why should you make routes up as you go along when the rest of us might have to pay extra to double back or take a scenic wander around the network?

And yes, of course, TOCs are usually helpful to disabled persons and offer alternatives, particularly if travellers take the precaution of contacting the operator before travelling.

I am not moaning about difficulties with buggies.
As a parent who uses public transport I purposely chose a small buggy to make travelling a lot easier and yes I do agree people do tend to go overboard with oversize buggies and those awful double buggy things.

I would always rather take one train rather than two but Erith station is not staffed all the time so you can't even try and get help from station staff and its not particularly busy at off-peak times so even a good samaritan could be hard to find.

Erith station is also unusual in that the platforms are not directly opposite each other.

Chris

 

[Green Lane]

A while back, a lady with a pram was travelling from West Kirby to New Brighton. The guard instructed her to change at Birkenhead Park (island platform) rather than Birkenhead North (footbridge).

This of course was completely sensible.

Although I must admit, I did think to myself at the time "Is that allowed" as it did mean doubling back. I guess if the guard says to you that it's OK, then it's OK in that case.

 

[blakey1152]

I've e-mailed SET and will post back their "Official" response

(obviously once I get it...)

Chris

 

[richw]

If you can't afford a car, you can't afford a baby.

I have 2 cars and they're a darn site cheaper to own and run than my daughter!

 

[bb21]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

Please explain what is wrong, in your opinion, with the OP asking if there is any help available to make life a bit easier for passengers travelling with a buggy?

I'm struggling to understand the point you're trying to make with your comments.

 

[richw]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

The problem with this statement. it is illegal to leave a under 12 at home alone, most children in need of a buggy are considerably under 12, so therefore need to go with their parents on the train.
Why do you comment about herds of screaming children, my daughter very rarely screams, she is 18 months. I find it very difficult at some stations to get the buggy from platform to platform. My wife has zero chance without assistance. For that reason yes we do choose to take the car most places. I'd prefer not to but sadly a lot of the railway has the same negative opinion of children as you. If you dont want screaming children in a public place i suggest you stay indoors at home.

 

[yorkie]

it is illegal to leave a under 12 at home alone.

Is that really true? Surely most people were allowed to be home alone at the age of 11, especially once they're in secondary school (most people would be 11 at the start of Year 7, unless they're one of the oldest in their year). I certainly was and I doubt it was illegal. I was also allowed on trains on my own at 11 (which is actually far safer than going to some dodgy housing estates nearby)

 

[Mojo]

No it's not true

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Yourchildshealthandsafety/Yourchildssafetyinthehome/DG_070594

Although ''children under the age of about 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time.''

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you can't afford a car, you can't afford a baby.

1 - What a load of rubbish.
2 - Why should they have to drive a car?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think (and I could be mistaken) that the Equalities Act 2010 affects pregnant persons and those with children in addition to people with disabilities.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Is that really true? Surely most people were allowed to be home alone at the age of 11, especially once they're in secondary school (most people would be 11 at the start of Year 7, unless they're one of the oldest in their year). I certainly was and I doubt it was illegal. I was also allowed on trains on my own at 11 (which is actually far safer than going to some dodgy housing estates nearby)

It can be considered neglect, and people have been prosecuted for it - yet their children are usually a bit younger!

 

[Blindtraveler]

it is t
rue that pregnant persons are catered for in the 2010 legislation but at the wrisk of being unpopular I do have to agree to an extent with Smethwickian about loud badly behaved kids on public transport and its maybe also worth pointing out here that particularly with busses and even more particularly in Edinburgh a certain percentage of buggy owners, sometimes with another screaming brat in tow think its there rite to occupy the disabled bay onboard and wheelchairs, walking stick users and those with sight impairments have no rite to be there and should get off!

Not being a child lover myself this atitude and the behavure and atitude of some parents really anoys me to the extent where0I would break a local journey to avoid it and perhaps more importantly compliment parents with a0well behaved child
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ta
ckling the issues here are challenging I know. Lothian buses have now got a buggy bay and wheelchair space on some vehicles and these are generally popular although you do get the odd moaner too! I would say that any transport opperater should be trying to help parents as I have several friends who dont drive and I think feel they get a bad deal from companys. Add to that the fact that Edinburgh is increasingly unfriendly to drivers with0many expensive street parking areas and lots of traffic fighting for not a lot of space, a situation I welcome as it forces improvements ö public transport planners, a fact fmonstrated UK wide by the uptake of park and ride scheems

 

[richw]

No it's not true

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Yourchildshealthandsafety/Yourchildssafetyinthehome/DG_070594

Although ''children under the age of about 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time.''

Ok, I made my comments on what a former colleague used as an excuse everytime her 11 year old was not in school!
I also based it on that next week during the strikes all my local secondary schools are opening for year 7 only due to them not being old enough to have a day off school without other supervision being arranged for them.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[cuccir]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

So no, why should you make routes up as you go along when the rest of us might have to pay extra to double back or take a scenic wander around the network?

There's so many things wrong with the attitude of this post that I really can't think where to begin with it! But hey, if someone or a few people from a group annoy you a few times, then clearly: all people in that group are the same; they're all out to annoy you and get whatever they want; they're all thoughtlessly inconveniencing people; your behaviour gives you the right to pronounce on the choices of others.

In response to the OP's original question - let us know what SET say, it would be interesting. I imagine that, as with many other cases on the rail, a polite request as soon as possible (before travelling, after getting on to a train etc) is significantly more likely to receive a positive outcome than going ahead and acting without permission/request, in the hope that anyone who challenges you will show discretion.

 

[PaulLothian]

Today's children taken on trains = RailUKForum members in 20 years' time!

 

[bb21]

it is t
rue that pregnant persons are catered for in the 2010 legislation but at the wrisk of being unpopular I do have to agree to an extent with Smethwickian about loud badly behaved kids on public transport and its maybe also worth pointing out here that particularly with busses and even more particularly in Edinburgh a certain percentage of buggy owners, sometimes with another screaming brat in tow think its there rite to occupy the disabled bay onboard and wheelchairs, walking stick users and those with sight impairments have no rite to be there and should get off!

He has a point, and I agree entirely about how annoying sometimes it can be, however there are better ways to put his points across than what he did.

 

[IanD]

it is illegal to leave a under 12 at home alone

There's no legal minimum age for leaving kids home alone.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Yourchildshealthandsafety/Yourchildssafetyinthehome/DG_070594

 

[Badger]

Buggies aren't the worst thing in the world. I missed a connection at New Street the other day. Someone got off the train using a ramp with a mobility scooter - bloody massive thing - which stretched from the ramp to the wall; they then proceeded to get off it so their friend could get on, taking forever to do so. I felt like punching somebody.

I have nothing against people using buggies on trains, however nowadays there seems to be this trend of people using their buggies as personal barriers, shoving their kids into your shins. It was terrible around Birmingham's Christmas market the other day, honestly, they think having a buggy gives them a right of way and have no problem using their own child as a battering ram, even if it pushes you over.

Buggies should be fine on trains, so long as the parents take responsibility if their kid is playing up etc. And like bicycles, they should have to be booked in advance, especially if the train is busy; if the train is exceptionally busy the buggy should be folded. The buggy also should be as small as safely possible (so no antique prams). Those aren't the rules, of course, just a personal wish, and it seems railway etiquette is a thing of the past anyway.

As for the topic at hand though it's up to the TOC, but I would imagine they would be understanding if there is no non-stepped access (I didn't think it was legal for a station to not have disabled access these days?)

Also another note, little children and buggies should not be allowed on quiet coaches for obvious reasons.

 

[dvboy]

Perhaps my tongue should have been further embedded in my cheek yesterday.

 

[jon0844]

Getting back on topic, I know Wagn and then FCC allow you to double back if you board/arrive at Hatfield and want to avoid the stairs (although soon that problem will disappear).

So, if you're going northbound, you take a train to Potters Bar and cross there (step free) to go north. The other way, you go to Welwyn Garden City and cross (via lift) and come back to Hatfield.

Clearly this will be perfectly fine for a wheelchair user, but I could imagine some hassle from certain RPIs if you did so with a buggy, or simply with large bags you couldn't easily carry. Given the extra time (going to WGC can often mean a long wait to get a train back - so a 3-4 minute journey each way can have a 20-25 minute wait in between) they shouldn't penalise you, but I do wonder if some TOCs would even remember what they've said in the past (or a previous operator has).

 

[34D]

Dear parents who moan about difficulties with buggies: Ever thought of not having herds of screaming children. Or maybe not dragging them, buggies the size of small family cars and tonnes of other clutter everywhere with you?

So no, why should you make routes up as you go along when the rest of us might have to pay extra to double back or take a scenic wander around the network?

And yes, of course, TOCs are usually helpful to disabled persons and offer alternatives, particularly if travellers take the precaution of contacting the operator before travelling.

You are very rude and offensive. I'd imagine that a fair number of those on here are family men. I took my lad on train and tube at the age of two weeks (with stroller buggy - you won't know what a stroller is, as I sense you don't have children). I suspect you'd rather I took him down the A1 instead.

How many children may I sire before it gets classed as a hoard?

Do I recall correctly that NRCOC mentions something about disabled people and routes/access - a brief paragraph and not something involving ringing to book in advance.