Upper Tyndrum [UTY] - Lower Tyndrum [TYL] fares

[Gathursty]

NRE is coming up with:

We are sorry, we are not able to find any fares that match your journey details. There are some possible reasons below. Please try again.

You specified a 'via' station, but also asked for the cheapest fares. The cheapest tickets may not be available on the route you requested. Try again, without the via station.

There are no trains running when you want to go. Try again, travelling at a different time.

I was just wondering on the Y-P single and return price following on from the thread on cheapest fares but can't seem to find much joy.

 

[bb21]

Tyndrum Stations is a station group for fares purposes so if you try and route it via somewhere outside the group it probably explains why there is no through fare.

Similarly if you try Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly via Eccles or Stalybridge it will tell you to buy two separate tickets.

Paisley G St and Paisley Canal are not in the same group as Paisley Stations does not exist.

Edit: I think collybs provided a better answer than me.

 

[OwlMan]

Thats because there are no through fares for that flow. You would have to buy tickets to/from Crianlarich - or walk

 

[CompactDstrxion]

No you could buy a ticket from Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum Stations, this is the ticket WebTIS and National Rail suggests for Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum Lower.

 

[John @ home]

No you could buy a ticket from Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum Stations.

Yes, for a single journey between the two Tyndrum stations a £2.90 SDS Bridge of Orchy - Tyndrum Stations (or vice versa) is better value than a £3.90 SDR Tyndrum Stations - Crianlarich.

 

[Track Basher]

Yes, for a single journey between the two Tyndrum stations a £2.90 SDS Bridge of Orchy - Tyndrum Stations (or vice versa) is better value than a £3.90 SDR Tyndrum Stations - Crianlarich.

The only problem is it is not valid. You can travel to any station in the station group however once you arrive at the station group you can not then leave it to get to another station in the group.

If you had a ticket from Crewe to Manchester stations you could travel Crewe - Man Pic then change for either Ox Rd or Deansgate but you could not continue to Salford Crescent and back to Victoria. Salford Crescent is outside the station group.

The SDR is no problem, this is valid.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Can you back that up, please? If someone bought this ticket online and obtained reservations, which are available, then that forms a contract with the passenger. Furthermore, National Rail, the definitive source of information for passengers, clearly offers this ticket for this journey.

 

[yorkie]

The only problem is it is not valid. You can travel to any station in the station group however once you arrive at the station group you can not then leave it to get to another station in the group.

Can you inform us where this is documented? I don't think any of the experts on this forum are familiar with this apparent rule? The booking sites also, are not programmed to follow it (although that in itself doesn't mean it does not exist!)

 

[John @ home]

The only problem is it is not valid. You can travel to any station in the station group however once you arrive at the station group you can not then leave it to get to another station in the group.

I don't agree

Catch a Glasgow train at Tyndrum Lower. There is no booking office and no ticket machine, so buy a ticket on the train. Ask for a Day Return to Bridge of Orchy. You are sold a £5.20 Anytime Day Return (SDR) Tyndrum Stations - Bridge of Orchy via Any Permitted Route.

The shortest route is always a Permitted Route. This is:

Tyndrum Lower - Crianlarich - Upper Tyndrum - Bridge of Orchy

It is not uncommon for the shortest route by rail between two stations over which a passenger service operates to involve leaving and re-entering a Group. Examples are:

• Rochdale - Manchester Victoria - Salford Crescent - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport
• On a Sunday, Shotts - Holytown - Bellshill - Motherwell - Hamilton West

In each case, the stations in blue are Group Stations.

 

[Track Basher]

In the instance of Bridge of Orchy this is what prevents it.

Bridge of Orchy and Crainlarich have a common routeing point of Glasgow. Don't forget the ticket is to Tydrum Stations not the individual stations.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a
route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed
by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on
those trains.

Normally this is prevented by the routeing guide fares check.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't agree

Catch a Glasgow train at Tyndrum Lower. There is no booking office and no ticket machine, so buy a ticket on the train. Ask for a Day Return to Bridge of Orchy. You are sold a £5.20 Anytime Day Return (SDR) Tyndrum Stations - Bridge of Orchy via Any Permitted Route.

The shortest route is always a Permitted Route. This is:


It is not uncommon for the shortest route by rail between two stations over which a passenger service operates to involve leaving and re-entering a Station Group. Examples are:

• Rochdale - Manchester Victoria - Salford Crescent - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport
• On a Sunday, Shotts - Holytown - Bellshill - Motherwell - Hamilton West

In each case, the stations in blue are Group Stations.

I have no problem with your example. In your case the destination is not a Group Station in my example you have reached your destination and departed it again and travelled beyond to come back again. Routeing Groups and station groups are different.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

[*]On a Sunday, Shotts - Holytown - Bellshill - Motherwell - Hamilton West[/LIST]In each case, the stations in blue are Group Stations.

Sorry to be pedantic, but there are no trains whatsoever between Shotts (West Calder to be precise) and Holytown on a Sunday

I agree though that I have never heard of this.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

In the instance of Bridge of Orchy this is what prevents it.

Bridge of Orchy and Crainlarich have a common routeing point of Glasgow. Don't forget the ticket is to Tydrum Stations not the individual stations.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

Normally this is prevented by the routeing guide fares check.

The ticket being to Tyndrum Stations simply means it is valid to either station. It doesn't mean for all stations north of Upper Tyndrum they have to get off there. It means the passenger has the choice of which station to travel to. The passenger's destination is not 'Tyndrum Stations' it is one station or the other.

The Tyndrum stations are listed separately on the pink pages of the routeing guide. For routeing purposes they are considered to be separate locations.

If you want to travel from Bridge of Orchy to Tyndrum Lower then the only valid route is the shortest (or up to 3 miles longer- not relevant) with no doubling back since they share the common routeing point of Glasgow Group. This is obviously via Crianlarich.

If Scotrail didn't want people making this journey on this ticket then they could quite easily create different fares for each station. Certainly, without public information to the contrary, and how National Rail Enquiries and booking engines (including Scotrail's) behave then I don't see how a passenger could be penalised for making such a journey.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If Scotrail didn't want people making this journey on this ticket then they could quite easily create different fares for each station.

It is my understanding that fares regulation prevents such a change.

I have to say that the rule proposed by Track Basher about not leaving and re-entering a destination fares group sounds quite sensible, but it doesn't appear to exist - and if ATOC had intended this they would have proposed it when the routeing guide was first being created, wouldn't they?

 

[wintonian]

The only problem is it is not valid. You can travel to any station in the station group however once you arrive at the station group you can not then leave it to get to another station in the group.

If you had a ticket from Crewe to Manchester stations you could travel Crewe - Man Pic then change for either Ox Rd or Deansgate but you could not continue to Salford Crescent and back to Victoria. Salford Crescent is outside the station group.

The SDR is no problem, this is valid.

Can you tell me how one gets to Portsmouth Harbour in that case?

 

[Paul Kelly]

In the Portsmouth case you aren't going through any intermediate stations outside the fares group when going from PMS to PMH,so you aren't breaking Track Basher's rule!

 

[yorkie]

Can you tell me how one gets to Portsmouth Harbour in that case?

No source has been given for the rule, so I think we can safely say it does not exist and is a theory about what other rules effectively say.

However I think what he is saying is that if your destination is Portsmouth Stns then you can't call at a member of Portsmouth Stns, then leave the group, then re-enter the group. I agree that this would be very rare, and I can't think of many examples where a journey could legitimately do this, the only ones that spring to mind are the Tyndrum and Manchester examples.

 

[wintonian]

No source has been given for the rule, so I think we can safely say it does not exist and is a theory about what other rules effectively say.

However I think what he is saying is that if your destination is Portsmouth Stns then you can't call at a member of Portsmouth Stns, then leave the group, then re-enter the group. I agree that this would be very rare, and I can't think of many examples where a journey could legitimately do this, the only ones that spring to mind are the Tyndrum and Manchester examples.

Oh OK I thought he was saying once you arrive at a station in a group you can't then leave that station - obviously I misinterpreted the statement.

 

[sheff1]

No source has been given for the rule, so I think we can safely say it does not exist and is a theory about what other rules effectively say.

However I think what he is saying is that if your destination is Portsmouth Stns then you can't call at a member of Portsmouth Stns, then leave the group, then re-enter the group. I agree that this would be very rare, and I can't think of many examples where a journey could legitimately do this, the only ones that spring to mind are the Tyndrum and Manchester examples.

Bradford is another example. When that was discussed a few months ago, we again had people making up their own rules and trying to pass them off as definitive. :roll:

 

[Paul Kelly]

I agree that this would be very rare, and I can't think of many examples where a journey could legitimately do this, the only ones that spring to mind are the Tyndrum and Manchester examples.

Ah I'm not sure about that - I think you could theoretically contrive quite a few. E.g. I just had a look at a London & Southeast map and came up with Betchworth to Dorking via Guildford, which NRE is showing as valid on a £2.30 Betchworth to Dorking Stations SDS even though you pass through both Dorking Deepdene and Dorking West on your way to Guildford, before changing there for a train to Leatherhead, and finally changing there again for the last two stops into Dorking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bradford was similar but different. Both Bradford stations are termini so it is impossible to pass through one on the way to the other.

 

[sheff1]

Bradford was similar but different. Both Bradford stations are termini so it is impossible to pass through one on the way to the other.

Bradford Interchange is not a terminus for the trains from the Calder Valley line though. They merely reverse there and then continue to Leeds or beyond. Therefore, if you were travelling from or via the Calder Valley to Forster Square, you would pass through Interchange on the way.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Bradford Interchange is laid out as a terminus but is actually part of continuing services (except Grand Central).

On National Rail Enquiries, Halifax to Bradford Forster Square via Leeds works even though you are passing through Interchange on the way. It also works on Northern's booking engine and Trainline booking engines. WebTIS refuses it. And interestingly, Halifax to Frizinghall is routed Not Leeds. It seems the intention is not to allow it but there is no actual rule stating it.

Same works with Barnsley to Wakefield Westgate via Leeds even though you are passing through Wakefield Kirkgate on the way.

 

[John @ home]

In the instance of Bridge of Orchy this is what prevents it.

Bridge of Orchy and Crainlarich have a common routeing point of Glasgow. Don't forget the ticket is to Tydrum Stations not the individual stations.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

In the case of a Tyndrum Lower - Bridge of Orchy (or Bridge of Orchy - Tyndrum Lower) journey, this restriction does not apply because travel is by the shortest route by rail. Page A1 of the National Roueing Guide (NRG) Instructions confirms that the shortest route is always valid and tells us that we need only refer to the NRG when not travelling by the shortest route.

Normally this is prevented by the routeing guide fares check.

The fares check is part of Step 4 of the NRG Instructions and is used to determine which of a number of Routeing Points (RPs) is the appropriate one for a particular journey. For Tyndrum Lower - Bridge of Orchy, Glasgow Group is the only RP for both origin and destination so there can be no doubt that it is the appropriate RP and that origin and destination have a RP in common. Therefore the second sentence quoted by Track Basher above applies to this journey.

Catch a Glasgow train at Tyndrum Lower. There is no booking office and no ticket machine, so buy a ticket on the train. Ask for a Day Return to Bridge of Orchy. You are sold a £5.20 Anytime Day Return (SDR) Tyndrum Stations - Bridge of Orchy via Any Permitted Route.

I have no problem with your example.

Good, then we are agreed that a SDR Tyndrum Stations - Bridge of Orchy is valid for an outward leg of

Tyndrum Lower - Crianlarich - Upper Tyndrum - Bridge of Orchy

In your case the destination is not a Group Station in my example you have reached your destination and departed it again and travelled beyond to come back again.

The return leg of a SDR Tyndrum Stations - Bridge of Orchy meets these conditions. I do not believe that the return leg can be restricted in the way suggested, which would mean that the passenger was not allowed to return to their origin station. In my opinion, that would be a breach of contract by the railway company.

Routeing Groups and station groups are different.

Agreed. I have edited post #9 to make it clear that I am writing about Group Stations, not Routeing Point Groups.