WAG Express discussion

[merlodlliw]

The cost-benefit is favourable, but the question I was asking was whether the Gowerton - Loughor redoubling has a more favourable cost benefit.

I still think that establishing a link between the Borderlands and North Wales Coast at Shotton needs to be considered more fully. This would add more North-South capacity, and maybe a Wrexham-Chester shuttle could be set up?

The fact that Wrexham - Saltney can't be FULLY redoubled must add to the doubts about the project.

Nothing will bypass Chester. its the key hub to four tocs. Shotton link is out of the question now.

No doubts about Wrexham/Saltney redouble, it a goer, but when, Id hate to see the £28millions transferred to roads or the South, NR now need to be sorted good & proper, with all respect to Planner

 

[Rhydgaled]

The cost-benefit is favourable, but the question I was asking was whether the Gowerton - Loughor redoubling has a more favourable cost benefit.

The big benifits of Gowerton redoubling are more long-term in my opinion. Sure, as soon as it is done more trains will be able to stop at Gowerton, the timetable should be able to become entirly clockface which will be a great help and reliability should be improved.

However, as far as extra services are concerned there is already 1.5tph over that section and I think extra services on several routes with a lower frequency have a higher priority. For south-west Wales, the Swansea District Line comes top and elsewhere the Cambrian main line hourly service and extra trains on Heart Of Wales and Conwy Valley lines are far more important than extras through Gowerton.

 

[merlodlliw]

The big benifits of Gowerton redoubling are more long-term in my opinion. Sure, as soon as it is done more trains will be able to stop at Gowerton, the timetable should be able to become entirly clockface which will be a great help and reliability should be improved.

However, as far as extra services are concerned there is already 1.5tph over that section and I think extra services on several routes with a lower frequency have a higher priority. For south-west Wales, the Swansea District Line comes top and elsewhere the Cambrian main line hourly service and extra trains on Heart Of Wales and Conwy Valley lines are far more important than extras through Gowerton.

Problem is Wrexham & Gowerton are capitol budget, extra services are from revenue budget., So don't mix without creative accounting

Bob

 

[TDK]

With all respect, the benefit is obvious, with it being the biggest pinch point in North Wales.

The Ministers statement, on the Wrexham,Flintshire,Chester rail triangle seems to have not been mentioned yet, so I ask, anybody know about this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The questions have to be asked now , fortunately I have two excellent AMs who do ask questions, plus questions are being thrown at Taith by AMs who are also deeply involved.

The Libs have agreed to the signing off of this plan, & the Wrexham redouble is on my Lib AMs doorstep, of which I have reminded him.

Bob

According to an NR source the redoubling is on hold until the funds are cleared and even then he recons it is well over the budget mentioned. Sorry Bob but I will say it again and keep saying it, the redoubling is a complete waste of money if no TOC or OA has made proposals to make use of it.

 

[jones_bangor]

Nothing will bypass Chester. its the key hub to four tocs. Shotton link is out of the question now.

No doubts about Wrexham/Saltney redouble, it a goer, but when, Id hate to see the £28millions transferred to roads or the South, NR now need to be sorted good & proper, with all respect to Planner

Hang on...if it's a goer, why no money?

Is it because that this project would leave a section of single track and thus many of the arguments in favour of redoubling are lost?

I've said it before, there are no plans for extra services, bar Gerald - which you seem to be against anyway.

Of course Chester is a key hub, but my suggestion wouldn't necessarily result in less trains to Chester, but would add extra capacity at peak times.

 

[daikilo]

Nothing will bypass Chester. its the key hub to four tocs. Shotton link is out of the question now.

No doubts about Wrexham/Saltney redouble, it a goer, but when, Id hate to see the £28millions transferred to roads or the South, NR now need to be sorted good & proper, with all respect to Planner

Sir, seems to me that a Holyhead-South Wales which switched from the Nth Wales Coast line to the Bidston-Wrexham (and v.v.) would spend less time outside Wales and would only need say 1 mile of additional track compared to whatever on the Chester-Wrexham link. This is surely a question of how far the Welsh Assembly wish to focus their investment and operating support.

In that context, I think I would see an opportunity with the Shooton link. Not sure AW would agree!

 

[Michael.Y]

Here's an interesting sidebar to this argument -- Chester is an At-Seat Catering depot and is the last (and first) stop-point for us Welsh/Salopian stewards to stock-up before the 4-hour trip to Holyhead and back.

Take Chester out of the South-North Wales line and you take that depot out of the equation, meaning no stock-ups for six hours, Salop-Holyhead-Salop (unless you open an extra depot along the North Wales coast, which would not make any financial sense.)

 

[merlodlliw]

According to an NR source the redoubling is on hold until the funds are cleared and even then he recons it is well over the budget mentioned. Sorry Bob but I will say it again and keep saying it, the redoubling is a complete waste of money if no TOC or OA has made proposals to make use of it.

NR are still working on the Wrexham project, ATW continually complain about the pinch point to Taith & WG, you could say the same about the Cambrian, the infrastructural work is there costing £millions, but no mention of when the trains will run. Also NR work wonders in increasing budgets, if the redouble is a waste of money the already ring fenced £28M can be recycled under the new accounting process & lost to roads, I am sure none of us want this

One also forgets the coming freight needs between Wrexham & Chester for Bersham shale removal & others. No extra capacity. no extra trains freight or passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sir, seems to me that a Holyhead-South Wales which switched from the Nth Wales Coast line to the Bidston-Wrexham (and v.v.) would spend less time outside Wales and would only need say 1 mile of additional track compared to whatever on the Chester-Wrexham link. This is surely a question of how far the Welsh Assembly wish to focus their investment and operating support.

In that context, I think I would see an opportunity with the Shooton link. Not sure AW would agree!

With all respect where would you put the link? Flintshire CC will have make com purchase orders to knock down buildings and if so this would take years & years.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was interviewed by Wales Media Group yesterday, judging by angle journo was taking I would expect a story in Wales on Sunday/Western Mail along lines of North to South Premier Express that few use expensively provided at expense of other rail improvements to run soon.
I did say I traveled on northbound WAG1 last Monday and there were 3 in Premier one of whom was clearly an enthusiast which is factually correct but I did say bear in mind it was a Monday night not the busiest day of the week.

He said he had been in contact with WG and that WAG 2 is only funded to May. He also gave some comments that WG are suppose to have said about Cambrian Hourly which I will post on appropriate thread.

 

[Rhydgaled]

He said he had been in contact with WG and that WAG 2 is only funded to May. He also gave some comments that WG are suppose to have said about Cambrian Hourly which I will post on appropriate thread.

I thought WAG 2 was funded on a long-term contract, although supposed to be using 67s and DVTs. If WAG are paying for 175 til May, then I hope ATW refunded the money paid for longer-term use of 67s and DVTs.

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought WAG 2 was funded on a long-term contract, although supposed to be using 67s and DVTs. If WAG are paying for 175 til May, then I hope ATW refunded the money paid for longer-term use of 67s and DVTs.

As its all up in the air, I would suggest he means the 175? goes , then Gerald the 67 will be via Wrexham in another time slot, well that's what I make of it. The case for a middle day express to Cardiff makes no sense.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

With all respect where would you put the link? Flintshire CC will have make com purchase orders to knock down buildings and if so this would take years & years.

Years & years - sound like Saltney - Wrexham!!

The facts - restablishing a link between NWC line and Borderlands at Shotton:

The link is more or less there - which was the old link to the dock at Connah's Quay. The link could be established without knocking down any buildings, and in fact only needs a few hundred mtrs of "new track bed". I would suggest the signalling could be an opportunity to upgrade the regime on the stretch of line between Talacre and Saltney.

A popular path would have to be diverted, but there are lots of flood bunds in that part of the world which would serve as an adequate route once re-surfaced. (see image / map below).

As its all up in the air, I would suggest he means the 175? goes , then Gerald the 67 will be via Wrexham in another time slot, well that's what I make of it. The case for a middle day express to Cardiff makes no sense.

I agree with you there, there is no need for WAG 2 as it is now.

I would suggest a mirror service to WAG 1 Gerald leaving Cardiff c. 6-6.30.

 

[jones_bangor]

One also forgets the coming freight needs between Wrexham & Chester for Bersham shale removal & others. No extra capacity. no extra trains freight or passenger.

Do we know that where the shale is going i.e. will they even go via Saltney? I thought some was going to Castle Cement by road (or rail along Borderlands?) - will the trains be going North? Or South?

 

[merlodlliw]

Years & years - sound like Saltney - Wrexham!!

The facts - restablishing a link between NWC line and Borderlands at Shotton:

The link is more or less there - which was the old link to the dock at Connah's Quay. The link could be established without knocking down any buildings, and in fact only needs a few hundred mtrs of "new track bed". I would suggest the signalling could be an opportunity to upgrade the regime on the stretch of line between Talacre and Saltney.

A popular path would have to be diverted, but there are lots of flood bunds in that part of the world which would serve as an adequate route once re-surfaced. (see image / map below).



I agree with you there, there is no need for WAG 2 as it is now.

I would suggest a mirror service to WAG 1 Gerald leaving Cardiff c. 6-6.30.

Interesting map, but I don't see it occurring, Chester is too valuable to bypass. A service leaving Cardiff at 600pm would mean a lie in at Canton for seven/ eight hours,though replacing the 520pm to Holyhead would make sense, it still leaves ATW the job of finding a franchise 415pm replacement to Abergavenny.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do we know that where the shale is going i.e. will they even go via Saltney? I thought some was going to Castle Cement by road (or rail along Borderlands?) - will the trains be going North? Or South?

Removing the shale by rail is a planning condition accepted by the contractor,It is my understanding it is going North for the multi £ seafront project on Merseyside, via Bidston is ruled out.I have not heard about castle cement and I am sure coal shale could not be used for cement manufacture.


Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

I agree with you there, there is no need for WAG 2 as it is now.

I would suggest a mirror service to WAG 1 Gerald leaving Cardiff c. 6-6.30.

Agreed, no need for current WAG 2, a waste of rolling stock. I'd like to see WAG 1 (Y Gerallt Gymro) extended to work through to/from Swansea, joined by a second LHCS express train (Y Gymro Hedegog) from Swansea in the morning leaving Holyhead about 16:00 for the return to Swansea. I hope the Welsh translations are accurate, I don't actually know Welsh. I used a website to translate (the names of the trains should be equivelent to 'Gerald The Welshman' and 'The Flying Welshman')

On your Shotton curve, wouldn't one in the other direction be more useful? Then you could divert the current Cardiff - Holyhead trains (save the two expresses I suggest) to Manchester (giving Wrexham direct services to Manchester) and free capacity on the current route between Wrexham and Chester for other services. Of course doing that would require replacments services for Holyhead and the north Wales coast line, which I would suggest also go to Manchester (or perhaps Liverpool or Crewe), but probablly also more rolling stock that we don't have.

 

[jones_bangor]

Removing the shale by rail is a planning condition accepted by the contractor,It is my understanding it is going North for the multi £ seafront project on Merseyside, via Bidston is ruled out.I have not heard about castle cement and I am sure coal shale could not be used for cement manufacture.

Quote "The company behind the plan, Bersham (Glenside), says the tip’s unburnt colliery spoil can be used at the cement factory in neighbouring Flintshire and most of the remaining material is suitable for making lightweight building blocks."
Read More :
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...41&siteid=50082-name_page.html#ixzz1g9DeMrXHW

 

[merlodlliw]

Quote "The company behind the plan, Bersham (Glenside), says the tip’s unburnt colliery spoil can be used at the cement factory in neighbouring Flintshire and most of the remaining material is suitable for making lightweight building blocks."
Read More :
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...41&siteid=50082-name_page.html#ixzz1g9DeMrXHW

Appreciate the link, but that link was almost five years ago, CADW no longer acknowledge the site of the tip(common sense), which was a bizarre request when there is
proper winding gear within the Bersham Park. NUM and others did not want the tip retained, the winding gear is a better memory, and can be seen from the train.
Since that link, changes have been made,Castle no longer seem to want the shale & the Mersey is where it is headed, if it ever goes?
I was under the impression the shale was meant for the incinerator not manufacture of cement , but that seems ruled out at Padeswood now. But good to see one of the old links.
BTW if diesel hits £2 a litre, the shale may have other uses at say Ellesmere port.

 

[Penmorfa]

Appreciate the link, but that link was almost five years ago, CADW no longer acknowledge the site of the tip(common sense), which was a bizarre request when there is
proper winding gear within the Bersham Park. NUM and others did not want the tip retained, the winding gear is a better memory, and can be seen from the train.
Since that link, changes have been made,Castle no longer seem to want the shale & the Mersey is where it is headed, if it ever goes?
I was under the impression the shale was meant for the incinerator not manufacture of cement , but that seems ruled out at Padeswood now. But good to see one of the old links.
BTW if diesel hits £2 a litre, the shale may have other uses at say Ellesmere port.

Tongue in cheek? wrong type of shale, the Welsh oil industry was based around Leeswood in Flintshire using cannel coal. It died overnight once the liquid stuff was discovered in Pennsylvania. I think we would have to be really desperate to even consider restarting a shale oil industry in this country. Fracking and the Canadian oil sands have to be used up first.

 

[jones_bangor]

A
I was under the impression the shale was meant for the incinerator not manufacture of cement , but that seems ruled out at Padeswood now. But good to see one of the old links.
BTW if diesel hits £2 a litre, the shale may have other uses at say Ellesmere port.

Raw Materials

The main raw materials used in the cement manufacturing process are limestone, sand, shale, clay, and iron ore. The main material, limestone, is usually mined on site while the other minor materials may be mined either on site or in nearby quarries. Another source of raw materials is industrial by-products. The use of by-product materials to replace natural raw materials is a key element in achieving sustainable development.

 

[merlodlliw]

Raw Materials

The main raw materials used in the cement manufacturing process are limestone, sand, shale, clay, and iron ore. The main material, limestone, is usually mined on site while the other minor materials may be mined either on site or in nearby quarries. Another source of raw materials is industrial by-products. The use of by-product materials to replace natural raw materials is a key element in achieving sustainable development.

Appreciate the data, I am aware limestone is the key ingredient of cement,I live within 200 meters of what was the largest limestone quarry in North East Wales,which had its own GWR railhead, which can still be found within this quarry,the smelted lime from the Hoffman was taken by rail via Coedpoeth & Brymbo, I think we had better get back to the thread title, or someone in Llanelli will be reminding us this is not a minerals thread,although rail does apply.

Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Removing the shale by rail is a planning condition accepted by the contractor. It is my understanding it is going North for the multi £ seafront project on Merseyside, via Bidston is ruled out.

I have been keeping this Bersham (Glenside) matter on the forum every few months, in the hope that news of its progress would not be forgotten. We are talking of seven to nine years of work of rail haulage, with the corresponding benefit of a vast number of heavy lorry movements being not visited on the roads of the area. I am pleased that Bob has reminded us of the said planning condition.

 

[jones_bangor]

I have been keeping this Bersham (Glenside) matter on the forum every few months, in the hope that news of its progress would not be forgotten. We are talking of seven to nine years of work of rail haulage, with the corresponding benefit of a vast number of heavy lorry movements being not visited on the roads of the area. I am pleased that Bob has reminded us of the said planning condition.

This, and other projects to carry "freight" in North Wales, will mean quite a bit more non-passenger rail traffic throughout the region.

 

[merlodlliw]

Cardiff-Holyhead train service has subsidised chef while commuters lack trains

by Rhodri Clark, Wales on Sunday
A PUBLICLY-SUBSIDISED first-class restaurant car has survived the latest transport cuts in Wales – while promised upgrades for ordinary passengers have been dropped.

The plush restaurant car – complete with travelling chef – is part of a £1.7m subsidy from the Welsh Government for a daily return express from Cardiff to Holyhead on weekdays.

Yet while the exclusive express has survived the transport cuts unveiled last week, Welsh ministers have shelved a pledge to bring in hourly trains for Aberystwyth, Newtown and Welshpool – even though the current two hour time gap between services makes it almost impossible to commute by train.

Public bodies and many businesses have banned first-class travel on expenses as the financial situation has worsened.

But the “Gerallt Gymro” train, which runs every morning from Holyhead to Cardiff, returning in the evening, includes a first-class coach for passengers who pay supplements on the standard fares of £30 to £50 in each direction. Those who can afford the supplements get a freshly cooked breakfast on the morning run to Cardiff and an evening meal on the way back.

A typical dinner menu offers a choice of soup or salad as a first course, followed by smoked haddock, omelette or pork in cider and apple sauce. Desserts may include tiramisu, lemon cheesecake or fresh fruit salad.

It was launched by Michelin-starred Welsh chef James Sommerin who lent chef Mark Wilson a hand in the first-class kitchen on the inaugural trip.

The Welsh Government has already invested £8m in infrastructure for extra trains between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, and last year published a transport plan promising hourly trains “by 2011” but the more recent revised plan omits the date.

A spokeswoman said: “Daytime hourly services between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury will be prioritised for delivery between 2012 and 2015, subject to ongoing infrastructure and timetable discussions and implementation by Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales, as well as the business case and availability of funding.”

The Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth Rail Passengers’ Association said additional trains at key times would enable people to commute to Aberystwyth or Shrewsbury for work or education.

“Since this scheme was announced in 1999, we’ve never described it as an hourly service,” said chairman Gareth Marston, adding that no train arrived in Shrewsbury from the Aberystwyth line between 7.25am and 9.25am.

“Most people are forced into driving. We need at least one connection a day for people from south Gwynedd to get to Aberystwyth and back in the working day.”

He said the Gerallt Gymro was of little use to most Mid Wales passengers because it did not connect with Aberystwyth trains at Shrewsbury.

He caught the Gerallt Gymro back from Cardiff on Monday and counted 42 passengers in standard class and just three in the entire first-class coach.

“It does grate that there’s dining provided for three people with what could be spent for possibly a couple of hundred elsewhere,.” he added.

North Wales AM Mark Isherwood said the restaurant car was a luxury for the few. “Serious questions have to be asked over why this is being retained, unless it pays for itself,” he said.



this also at a time when the priority now is supposedly on East-West routes rather than North-South.

....................................................................................................

put up with permission.

 

[Squaddie]

But the “Gerallt Gymro” train, which runs every morning from Holyhead to Cardiff, returning in the evening, includes a first-class coach for passengers who pay supplements on the standard fares of £30 to £50 in each direction. Those who can afford the supplements get a freshly cooked breakfast on the morning run to Cardiff and an evening meal on the way back.

A typical dinner menu offers a choice of soup or salad as a first course, followed by smoked haddock, omelette or pork in cider and apple sauce. Desserts may include tiramisu, lemon cheesecake or fresh fruit salad.

Jealousy and bitterness in a local tabloid... who'd have thought it?

“Serious questions have to be asked over why this is being retained, unless it pays for itself,” he said.

No attempt on the part of the newspaper to find out whether it does pay for itself? Or even to get a point of view from anyone other than the usual individuals?

This is also just a recycling of a story that first appeared in the same newspaper almost exactly a year ago:

Travel in first class on Y Gerallt Gymro costs the standard fare plus a supplement of £30 to £50 per direction, depending on journey length. The supplement includes breakfast or dinner.

A typical dinner menu offers a choice of soup or salad as a first course, followed by smoked haddock, omelette or pork in cider and apple sauce. Desserts may include tiramisu, lemon cheesecake or fresh fruit salad.

Passengers are served at their tables, which are laid with gleaming cutlery and crisp white linen.

 

[TDK]

No attempt on the part of the newspaper to find out whether it does pay for itself?

It doesn't pay for itseli, we do the tax payers and it should be dropped immediately as the only ones getting any money from it are ATW in profits, I think all profits made by ATW on this service should be put back into the pot so we have to pay less tax for it! It os a complete waste of resources as was in my opinion set up originally for the Welsh MP's to get to Cardiff in luxury

 

[The Informer]

Quote "The company behind the plan, Bersham (Glenside), says the tip’s unburnt colliery spoil can be used at the cement factory in neighbouring Flintshire and most of the remaining material is suitable for making lightweight building blocks."
Read More :
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...41&siteid=50082-name_page.html#ixzz1g9DeMrXHW

Castle Cement are halfway through flattening Llay's coal tip. They use the shale from there.

Bersham's shale will never go to Padeswood and heres why........"big spanner in works"............

The S&C layouts at Penyffordd are earmarked for plain lining because the assets now come under Shrewsbury and with the recent reduction in staff and the extra track territory gained, they want rid of assets that aint or will never be used again. So the easiest option is "if it aint getting used, plain line em" and knock it off the Scheduled Task List to free up staff to be used elsewhere.

On the Shotton curve idea....

That track is Cat5 and currently has a max linespeed of 40mph. Now its bad enough trundling up the Salop to Chester section at 70mph with a 175 that has just come up the marches at 90. Can you imagine a 175 going up the Bidston too?

The Borderlands Line is down for some major improvements to try and raise the linespeed to its maximum Cat5 speed of 55mph but a lot of renewing work is required and its currently just table talk at the minute.

 

[jones_bangor]

Cardiff-Holyhead train service has subsidised chef while commuters lack trains

Same old, same old. So? It's a InterCity standard train, not the 150 from Barry Island to Cardiff Central!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Castle Cement are halfway through flattening Llay's coal tip. They use the shale from there.

Bersham's shale will never go to Padeswood and heres why........"big spanner in works"............

The S&C layouts at Penyffordd are earmarked for plain lining because the assets now come under Shrewsbury and with the recent reduction in staff and the extra track territory gained, they want rid of assets that aint or will never be used again. So the easiest option is "if it aint getting used, plain line em" and knock it off the Scheduled Task List to free up staff to be used elsewhere.

On the Shotton curve idea....

That track is Cat5 and currently has a max linespeed of 40mph. Now its bad enough trundling up the Salop to Chester section at 70mph with a 175 that has just come up the marches at 90. Can you imagine a 175 going up the Bidston too?

The Borderlands Line is down for some major improvements to try and raise the linespeed to its maximum Cat5 speed of 55mph but a lot of renewing work is required and its currently just table talk at the minute.

I thought the Penyffordd layout was regularly used for the supply of coal from Yorkshire?

And "comes under Shrewsbury" is surely "comes under Cardiff" as per the new route setup?

Why shoud that mean a reduction in infrastructure when there is a customer contract to use it?

 

[The Informer]

I thought the Penyffordd layout was regularly used for the supply of coal from Yorkshire?

And "comes under Shrewsbury" is surely "comes under Cardiff" as per the new route setup?

Why shoud that mean a reduction in infrastructure when there is a customer contract to use it?

But that's the point. It aint getting used.
It now comes under Shrewsbury Delivery Unit instead of Chester. The 2 main DU's for Wales are Cardiff and Shrewsbury. The last time anything used the crossover at Penyffordd was over 2 years ago apparently. While they're at it they are considering cutting off one of the bays at wrexham general too because its considered beyond maintenance and no longer required!

 

[Penmorfa]

it's Padeswood that is used for the coal traffic, not Penyffordd. A trailing connection on the down line, with the empties going to Dee Marsh to run round. The other line at Penyffordd is the stub of the connection to the Mold line, last used early 90's?

With North Wales resaignalling in the pipeline I get a bit concerned about the future of the connection to Mostyn Docks. Not used at the moment but the source/destination of much traffic in the past.