All - I'll try to answer each point in turn.
Wintonian, Sorry much as I'd like to be I'm not contradicting myself because that's how the DFT have tendered it. To retain "Airport Express" status (remember them?) but move more than just fresh air in the AM and PM peak. That is the situation we have now.
I've spoken to the DfT (several of us have) and I have read the Southern Franchise Agreement. It's pretty clear that the name 'Gatwick Express' must be used, but this is no different to the name Stansted Express being used. No-one claims that NXEA tickets are not valid on Stansted Express though!
Gatwick Express is still a separate entity in ATOC land, and thus, in fares manual land.
I admit that there are some factions within ATOC that do not get this right, but this page
http://www.atoc.org/train-companies correctly does not list either Stansted Express or Gatwick Express as TOCs. However it is, ultimately, the DfT not ATOC who decide these things. If you are familiar with ATOC then you will know that not everyone at ATOC will agree with either of us - so it's probably just as well ATOC are not the Regulator!
This is a commercial concern, and one that the BAA (when Gatwick was so-owned) attempted to challenge by threatened court action to stop GX disappearing completely from the map.
I am aware there is an Agreement that the Gatwick Express name must be retained. I have no problem with that, nor the name Stansted Express over at NXEA. As for the map, Southern's map is perfectly adequate as it clearly shows the true situation, and I don't think anyone is complaining about the map. In fact the map supports our argument and I suggest all passengers carry a copy with them (best printed in colour).
By the advance quote I mean no common TOC that runs on a parallel route with GX services. So yes, from Hassocks to Birmingham New Street via "London" valid on "Virgin Trains & Connections" would be accepted on a GX extension service in the AM peak.
Of course a 'TOC & Connections' ticket is valid on these trains, but the problem is that Southern deny that they operate these trains and therefore some staff put up an argument (that can usually be dealt with) that as these trains are, they allege, not operated by Southern, then Southern Only tickets are not valid on them. However when presented with a good case, nearly all customers are "let off".
No it's not. You make a very good moral argument, I don't deny that at all.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
But I'm afraid you have to face the facts here, Gatwick Express still exists as a ticketing regime
I am happy to face "facts" but this statement is not a "fact" and I do not recognise the term "ticketing regime". Sorry.
and that is accepted by all comers.
What exactly is accepted by who?
It quite specifically singles out the Gatwick Express trains, extricating them from other "Southern" services.
What does?
Sector HW is the Schedule 8 title for Southern Railway. Apologies for not being clear here.
I do not recognise the term 'sector' applying to the NRCoC, nor can I find it in the Franchise Agreement. I don't know, but perhaps you are referring to 'Service Group'? There are 3 Service Groups, one of which is for the Gatwick to London non-stop trains but I can't see any reason why any service group would be considered a separate Company to the other service groups.
Quite right. See Appendix C of the NRCoC and you will see two entries, one for Southern, and one for Southern trading as Gatwick Express. So this is covered by the NRCoC.
We are well aware of the change made to the NRCoC a few months ago, and the reasons Southern did so, but this was not a "material change" and was merely to show that these brands are both the same TOC.
But we asked the DfT for clarification, one of the questions was:
"Can you confirm whether Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are separate companies, as defined in Appendix A of the NRCoC?"
The answer was:
I confirm that neither Stansted Express nor Gatwick Express are a Train Operating Company: Stansted Express is a trading name of the London Eastern Railway Limited Train Operating Company. Gatwick Express is a trading name of the Southern Railway Limited Operating Company.
If you dispute this, I suggest you contact Peter Lepper at the DfT. However I would strongly advise against disputing it and accepting the decision.
No, the Night Riviera is IN the FGW Franchise Commitment. Look I know this is perverse to all enthusiasts, but I too am an enthusiast, but the difference is I work in the industry. I don't want the likes of you guys hauled in front of the beak for flouting rules you thought worthy of challenge. That's my interest here.
Believe me, it is Southern who are heading for trouble here.
A while back WSMR were adamant they did not have to accept Route Birmingham tickets. We informed their MD of the reasons why they had to be valid and indeed encouraged him to dispute the revenue allocation process as WSMR was apparently being denied revenue they were entitled to through ORCATS. In the end, WSMR had to relent to our collective knowledge and they eventually accepted Route Birmingham tickets.
If Southern continue, they risk negative media publicity and investigations. We are not going to let this one go. I urge Southern to do the right thing and consistently admit that the Gatwick Express is operated by Southern, instead of admitting it when it suits and denying it when it doesn't.
Transportphoto, the 2007 tender document (on the Govia website open to all to see) specifies that the GX & SC franchises were both combined as a going concern to be jointly bid for to be run by one company. This is because the extensions to Brighton would be intrinsically linked between the new company and what was GX.
"one company" - this has now happened, I am glad you admit that it is one company, because when customers are challenged by staff they are told it is a "separate company"; purporting to be a company that ceased trading over 3 years ago is illegal and the practice must cease immediately, perhaps you can ensure your colleagues who claim that they are not "one company" do not make claims to the contrary?
No but I used to work for Southern. I now work for an industry partner in the same area. I am not admitting who in open forum for my own protection.
OK, fair enough.
SN Cust Svcs are entitled to give you any info they like
They sure do give out whatever info they like, including contradictory claims. This is bad practice and could lead to problems for Southern.
however the rules are clear
Agreed. NRCoC is very clear, and tickets routed "southern Only" are restricting the customer to those services provided by that "Train Company"; DfT is clear that there is only one company involved here and that is Southern. Gatwick Express ceased to be a Train Company in 2008 and not only have DfT confirmed this but Companies House have confirmed it too.
- and haven't change since GX merged into the SC franchise.
Incorrect, sorry but this is your opinion and the DfT disagrees with you. It is one franchise, one company.
GX trains to and from Victoria / Gatwick Airport for journeys commencing or finishing solely between those points are subject to a separate ticketing agreement for cheaper rate tickets
Really? Where is this "ticketing agreement"? I think you will find that this is not the case and the NRCoC applies. In fact the majority of their staff do admit the NRCoC applies (some deny it saying "we are special/express"!) but they also admit that they are not familiar with Condition 10. When a forum member asked if anyone was familiar with Condition 10 the duty manager said "No, but we don't need to be!" I think that says it all.
only GX tickets or "Any Permitted" tickets are valid.
I can't accept that at all. Tickets are valid in accordance with the NRCoC.
Network Cards still are not allowed on GX.
Except for journeys continuing beyond Gatwick on such services that are extended to Brighton (and vice versa), however it is dubious how enforceable that is, but let's not go there...
DaySave and Downlanders are not valid on GX services between Gatwick and Victoria. Period. No exceptions. This is in the T&Cs.
The Downlander is dubious, again let's not go there. The Daysave I cannot accept because of NRCoC Condition 10. I note that you
appear to imply that Daysaves & Downlanders are valid between Gatwick & Brighton on services branded Gatwick Express. Can you confirm this, and also the reasoning behind this (ie, do you consider that the TOC changes at Gatwick Airport)? I appreciate these posts are getting very long but if you answer just one question please answer this one as I am most intrigued!
GX ticketing arrangements are not new. They've been in place since the Gatwick Express venture was separated from Network South East. They still exist today, albeit with easements for the extension services to and from Brighton.
Again I can only ask to see these 'arrangements' as you put it, or "special rules" as some staff have told us. Bizarrely no-one has ever seen them and all the information available to the public suggests the NRCoC applies.
Not online no, but I saw the conductor's brief for the GX workings for extensions to Brighton. Normal tickets are able to be used providing your journey commences or terminates at a station SOUTH of Gatwick Airport, wherever you are travelling from, as GX Extensions have replaced formerly Southern Victoria services in previous timetables.
This information is not in the public domain so cannot possibly form any part in the Contract. It is, therefore irrelevant to passengers. Nevertheless I am intrigued and therefore would appreciate it if anyone can get further information in this area.
Yes, the trains are "operated" by Southern. This is never a point that is in dispute.
It may not be disputed by you but it is a central point of the argument used by staff who stand by the barriers (though when the barriers are turned on the issue goes away - you can figure out why!)
See Appendix 3, Page 27 of the NRCoC which defines Gatwick Express as a separate entity.
It does no such thing IMO. Please define "entity". If by "entity" you mean a Train Operating Company, then no it does not and the DfT confirmed this.
No but the NRCoC does show Gatwick Express!
The NRCoC makes it reasonably (though not crystal) clear that the services branded Gatwick Express are operated by the Southern Railways Train Operating Company. However I can see that some people may doubt this, that is why we asked the DfT for clarification, which they did.
...Good glad we agree. As you can see Southern are in twice, trading as two different trading names.
But it's one TOC, and that is what matters.
Does NRCoC Condition 10 state that tickets can be restricted to trading names? No, it says Companies.
Do you admit or deny that a NXEA Only ticket is valid on Stansted Express?
Do you admit or deny that Stansted Express' listing in NRCoC is no different to that of Gatwick Express?
No but ATOC administer the fares and agree revenue splitting from regulated fares between common TOCs on a line of route, and this forms the crux of the argument at hand.
How much revenue does Gatwick Express get then? Given that the company of that name is no longer trading, the answer is obviously £0. Therefore the revenue for services that are named Gatwick Express clearly goes to Southern. If this forms the 'crux of the argument' (I do not believe it does) this only supports our argument. Put it this way: a Southern RPI checking tickets on Gatwick Express can't use the "The Company I work for does not receive any revenue from this ticket" argument (not that such an argument really matters anyway as revenue does not determine validity... I could use my Huntington example as I have done before, but this post is getting too long...
)
Correct. StanX and GatX are not TOCs.
Thank you! Now read NRCoC Condition 10 and consider that statement when you read it. I think you may come to the same conclusion as us.
? You mean this runs on a private line that isn't owned by Network Rail. What has that got to do with Gatwick Express?
