Forgotten Railcard

[LondonJohn]

I am surprised nobody has suggested this before.. well I am not surprised because it denies TOC of revenue.

Most, if not all Railcards are registered so someone somewhere should have a record of it. Maybe we need a central database of railcards and in that case, a TOC official could speak to this department verify the card has been issued and is valid subject to say proof of identity being produced.

By following this process a TOC can validate that the person is entitled to that discount.

In cases like this, the person is charged either a £5 or £10 admin fee for the "convenience" of using the validation service for say the first occassion and on the second and subsequent occassions, the person is charged the excess PLUS the admin fee. Then you have some sort of deterrent for passengers who repeatedly forget, you don't overly penalise a family to the extent of £400 odd pounds for a genuine mistake and the scheme is self funding.

OR If this isn't workable, then a refund of the unusable ticket less an admin fee should in the very least be forthcoming after someone has been charged the full fare. Making someone pay twice, is quite unfair and just because the NRCOC says thats what happens doesn't make it right.

I am guessing this is just wishful thinking because the TOC want to sting passengers for £400 odd pounds rather than say £50 plus an admin fee or god forbid a TOC refunding a passenger, denying stakeholders of extra profit.

Maybe there should be an opt in scheme too at the time a railcard is purchased for say £1 this would cover the cost of the card being held on the database. If the person doesnt pay for this at the time of purchase they can't take advantage of the "validation" scheme.

 

[yorkie]

We are told to tell passengers that they are not entitled to a refund. ....

...on the ticket you just sold them - correct! But they may be entitled to a refund on the original ticket that has not been used.

For example from the East Coast Revenue Manual:

The only time a passenger should be referred to
a Travel Centre for a possible refund is where
the original ticket they have is refundable (e.g.
Anytime fare routed ‘GC only’) and hasn’t been
used because you issued them with a correct
ticket for East Coast.

I am not going to get into the rights & wrongs of refunds in this topic (other than dealing with factual matters) as the frequency of this issue now appears to be at least one a month, with the last one about a week ago and each time, although some facts are debated, we also get suggested solutions that have at least one flaw. Sometimes the same solutions get banded about as in a previous topic, and surprise surprise, the same flaws get given as reasons why the solutions won't work.

We will never get universal agreement on this issue, which is why when someone actually forgets their railcard the advice we give will vary depending on the exact circumstances and what they are entitled to and what the TOC will give them may be rather different things, depending on the TOC concerned.

 

[Flamingo]

Agreed, if they realise that they have not got the railcard and say straight away they need to purchase a new ticket (or go to a booking office before boarding and excess the ticket) then the "unused" ticket can be sent for a refund.

If the ticket is presented as valid, and then the railcard is not produced / expired, then an attempt has been made to travel on that ticket. (In my case, by that stage, then the ticket will probably have been already stamped), and there is a case for the guard withdrawing the ticket completely (it is railway property, after all) as a reasonable inference is that an attempt has been made to travel fraudulently.

The other issue about sending it back for a refund if a new ticket is purchased on-board is the ticket may have passed through a ticket gate, which will be registered in the magnetic strip, and may lead to refusal to refund as giving a reasonable suspicion that the ticket has been used.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I am surprised nobody has suggested this before.. well I am not surprised because it denies TOC of revenue.

Most, if not all Railcards are registered so someone somewhere should have a record of it. Maybe we need a central database of railcards and in that case, a TOC official could speak to this department verify the card has been issued and is valid subject to say proof of identity being produced.

By following this process a TOC can validate that the person is entitled to that discount.

It has been suggested before and there are flaws, for example, you can prove someone has a railcard with a database, but you can't prove the person travelling is the railcard holder.

....OR If this isn't workable, then a refund of the unusable ticket less an admin fee should in the very least be forthcoming after someone has been charged the full fare....

I'm sure this is already the case (as I have already said) and for some reason isn't liked by some people who think it is unfair on the railcard holder (even if they do get a refund on the discounted fare!).

 

[Flamingo]

I had someone before Xmas who was on the outward part of a return ticket, YP discount, railcard was expired about 3 weeks. I told them to get a new railcard before the return journey, wrote on the return ticket "check railcard", and went on my way.

A few days ago, I had the same person give me the return ticket, and load of BS about a stolen bag containing the railcard. When I pointed out to that I remembered them, and it was my writing on the return ticket, they then said "Oh well, I'm too old to get another YP card, so I thought I'd chance it".

Now, that was a blatant attempt to defraud, and if they had said to me first time they were too old, I would have excessed them. As it was, I charged them a full open (which I rarely do, but I felt was justified in this case).

Now, I probably should have charged them first time, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt in the first instance. Next time, I probably won't, so someone who may be genuine is going to have to abide by the NRCoC as well.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All the suggestions for databases, refunds, admin fees etc. miss out on one basic point;

- Nobody is obliged to purchase a railcard discounted ticket.

If they do so, they are agreeing to abide by the conditions. If they have made a mistake, that is sad, but it is not the fault of ATOC, so why should ATOC spend taxpayers or shareholders money putting in place a system for the benefit of people who can't get their act together (putting it bluntly)?

As with advance tickets, the vast majority of people manage to use them OK, and separating out the genuine from the fraudulent is too expensive and complicated to be worth the hassle, IMHO.

 

[LondonJohn]

It has been suggested before and there are flaws, for example, you can prove someone has a railcard with a database, but you can't prove the person travelling is the railcard holder.

Then in that case you can't validate them and therefore a full single fare needs to be purchased.

 

[SS4]

A central database probably already exists since you do need to fill in a form to get the card - as opposed to simply walking up and buying it on the spot.

Checking the database is the issue of course and I can imagine it being rather time consuming

 

[dzug2]

It has been suggested before and there are flaws, for example, you can prove someone has a railcard with a database, but you can't prove the person travelling is the railcard holder.

.

And you also can't prove that someone on another train is not using the 'forgotten' tralcard.

 

[Yew]

Make them all photo cards?

 

[BestWestern]

As a few others have rightly said, the main issue with any form of database checking for Y-P's is that it doesn't prove the person attempting to travel is in fact the person entitled to use the Railcard. There is also, in my opinion, a reasonable argument that the railway should not have to establish and staff an office just for this purpose because some people forget their documentation. The requirement for using a Railcard is very simple, you just need to bring it with you.

As has already been said, nobody is forced to buy a Y-P or whatever other discounted ticket, and you should ensure that you have a valid card and know where it is when you buy the ticket and travel. It's shocking the number of people who have clearly made no attempt whatsoever to locate their Railcard until a Guard asks them for it, despite it being common sense that it is likely to be needed during their journey. I've walked away to give people more time to find theirs, fully expecting to come back and charge them because they don't have it and are trying it on, only to find that they do have one and it really has taken then ten minutes to locate it!

Offering refunds if an excess has been carried out is a no-no since it is wide open to abuse. For example, two people travelling on Y-P tickets, one has a Y-P card and the other doesn't so gets excessed. After their journey, what is to stop the older of the valid Y-P taking their companion's excess with their own Railcard to a ticket office and getting it fraudulently refunded?!

 

[island]

I had someone before Xmas who was on the outward part of a return ticket, YP discount, railcard was expired about 3 weeks. I told them to get a new railcard before the return journey, wrote on the return ticket "check railcard", and went on my way.

A few days ago, I had the same person give me the return ticket, and load of BS about a stolen bag containing the railcard. When I pointed out to that I remembered them, and it was my writing on the return ticket, they then said "Oh well, I'm too old to get another YP card, so I thought I'd chance it".

Now, that was a blatant attempt to defraud, and if they had said to me first time they were too old, I would have excessed them. As it was, I charged them a full open (which I rarely do, but I felt was justified in this case).

Now, I probably should have charged them first time, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt in the first instance. Next time, I probably won't, so someone who may be genuine is going to have to abide by the NRCoC as well.

Forget a new anytime ticket, you would have been justified in going to TIR/MG11!

 

[swt_passenger]

I see SWT's TVMs have a new 'splash screen' that appears after you select a railcard. I don't remember the exact wording, but the machine is basically asking you to check you have the railcard with you, and hit a button to continue.

Presumably that is intended to help their revenue protection people, who can now ascertain (by decoding the ticket issue retail position number) that the passenger has already been reminded to carry the railcard -at least if issued at an SWT TVM.

I think this simple addition to the machines has been suggested here in the past...

 

[jon0844]

Otherwise, the T&C are no railcard, new ticket. If people don't want to take the risk of having to buy new tickets, then either make damn sure they have the railcard with the, or don't buy those type of tickets in the first place.

When I went on NXEA (a Norwich train from Liverpool St) before Christmas, I was behind the TM as she went through the train (having been to the cafe bar) and a young girl showed her ticket and was asked to show her railcard. The girl then said 'Sorry, I lost it' so I smirked and thought 'this will be fun'. But, no, the TM just said 'okay' and carried on!!

By the time we got to the end of the carriage, so I could pass, she asked for a ticket from someone standing next to the exit - and asked to see his reservation! I didn't know you could reserve a space by the door at the end of a carriage! Surely if he had an advance, he likely had a reservation so goodness knows why he'd chosen not to use it!

Anyway, the TM might have been feeling in a good move before Christmas, but I thought it sent out the wrong message (and the girl who had lost her card will now be able to argue that she was allowed to travel without her railcard before - and she wouldn't be lying).

Most, if not all Railcards are registered so someone somewhere should have a record of it. Maybe we need a central database of railcards and in that case, a TOC official could speak to this department verify the card has been issued and is valid subject to say proof of identity being produced.

As technology advances and all rail staff carry 'connected' devices then this could work. Give your name, DOB or whatever and the terminal carried by a member of staff could show the photo of the registered holder.

Perhaps you charge a fee for checking this way, as you wouldn't want to be doing that all the time because passengers don't then see the need to carry a card.

The thing is, that could only work as an add-on benefit to giving staff connected devices for other reasons. Nobody would spend money to develop such a system otherwise.

You'd also need to change the way railcards are issued too, as I got a railcard this year (Network Railcard) and there's no photo attached to it. In fact, if you get a Partner Card as an annual season ticket holder, you will likely get given a card without it being registered at all.

I see SWT's TVMs have a new 'splash screen' that appears after you select a railcard. I don't remember the exact wording, but the machine is basically asking you to check you have the railcard with you, and hit a button to continue.

Presumably that is intended to help their revenue protection people, who can now ascertain (by decoding the ticket issue retail position number) that the passenger has already been reminded to carry the railcard -at least if issued at an SWT TVM.

I think this simple addition to the machines has been suggested here in the past...

Yes, and that's great news if it happens everywhere. That, and perhaps being made fully aware of the consequences of not presenting a railcard at the point of registering/buying your card would stop the problem - or at least stop people complaining. It might even stop the press siding with the passenger when the industry can make it quite clear how there was NO WAY the passenger couldn't have known the importance of carrying the railcard.

Anyone would think that ATOC and TOCs actually read things on this forum and take notice of them.

 

[philjo]

Perhaps the ticket systems should ask for the railcard number/surname & print that on the ticket. it would obviously check that the railcard was valid for the travel dates.
The only issue would be that it would slow down the process of buying discounted tickets from TVMs.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps the ticket systems should ask for the railcard number/surname & print that on the ticket. it would obviously check that the railcard was valid for the travel dates.

The only issue would be that it would slow down the process of buying discounted tickets from TVMs.

That wouldn't work, as tickets are transferable.

 

[island]

By the time we got to the end of the carriage, so I could pass, she asked for a ticket from someone standing next to the exit - and asked to see his reservation! I didn't know you could reserve a space by the door at the end of a carriage! Surely if he had an advance, he likely had a reservation so goodness knows why he'd chosen not to use it!

Surely she needed to see the reservation to check he was on the right train more so than in the right place?

Anyway, the TM might have been feeling in a good move before Christmas, but I thought it sent out the wrong message (and the girl who had lost her card will now be able to argue that she was allowed to travel without her railcard before - and she wouldn't be lying).

I agree with that much.

As technology advances and all rail staff carry 'connected' devices then this could work. Give your name, DOB or whatever and the terminal carried by a member of staff could show the photo of the registered holder.

Doesn't work, as photos of holders of station-issued railcards aren't on a database.

Perhaps the ticket systems should ask for the railcard number/surname & print that on the ticket. it would obviously check that the railcard was valid for the travel dates.
The only issue would be that it would slow down the process of buying discounted tickets from TVMs.

I don't think railcards are (a) uniquely numbered or (b) on a single database. On the other hand, if you had to enter in some railcard number into the machine to buy a railcard-discounted ticket, it might be a small barrier to people who inadvertently don't have their railcard with them. Wouldn't help with fraudulent travel though as the person would just enter something at random.

 

[SS4]

On the other hand, if you had to enter in some railcard number into the machine to buy a railcard-discounted ticket, it might be a small barrier to people who inadvertently don't have their railcard with them. Wouldn't help with fraudulent travel though as the person would just enter something at random.

The cost in time would be prohibitive, many people are already too thick to understand how to buy tickets from a TVM and too stubborn to use the ticket office

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....As technology advances and all rail staff carry 'connected' devices then this could work. Give your name, DOB or whatever and the terminal carried by a member of staff could show the photo of the registered holder....

You would have an issue with station issued railcards, if ticket offices took a second passport size photo for the file it could be weeks before it enters the system (assuming it is not lost in the post) or you'd have to have staff taking pictures of holders at the station to download somewhere (which many really don't have time to do frankly). We can't accept passengers files onto the system because the IT dept. is petrified of viruses getting onto the system (not from the picture, but from the media device used).

....Yes, and that's great news if it happens everywhere. That, and perhaps being made fully aware of the consequences of not presenting a railcard at the point of registering/buying your card would stop the problem - or at least stop people complaining....

It wouldn't solve the problem of people just clicking okay (like they do for the T&C tick boxes of websites (including rail ticketing sites).

....Anyone would think that ATOC and TOCs actually read things on this forum and take notice of them.

If it is in their interest to act (and it doesn't cost much), maybe.

That wouldn't work, as tickets are transferable.

Tickets are not transferable, but can be bought for use by other people (technical difference I guess, but an important one).

....I don't think railcards are (a) uniquely numbered or (b) on a single database. On the other hand, if you had to enter in some railcard number into the machine to buy a railcard-discounted ticket, it might be a small barrier to people who inadvertently don't have their railcard with them. Wouldn't help with fraudulent travel though as the person would just enter something at random.

The photocard should be fairly unique, I've never seen two alike, but actual railcard numbers could be the same. Even if you included the issuing location and machine/window number there is a chance of two being the same (although the chances of that are incredibly small).

 

[jon0844]

You would have an issue with station issued railcards, if ticket offices took a second passport size photo for the file it could be weeks before it enters the system (assuming it is not lost in the post) or you'd have to have staff taking pictures of holders at the station to download somewhere (which many really don't have time to do frankly). We can't accept passengers files onto the system because the IT dept. is petrified of viruses getting onto the system (not from the picture, but from the media device used).

I know it wouldn't be workable now, or even in the near future. I am talking about a bit further than that into the future when we may well have the means to take photos and issue cards even at ticket offices, and the data would be registered immediately.

It would happen as part of changes that will happen in the future no matter what. I'm sure it won't be that many years until you get people to fill in forms on a tablet of some sort, so the data is captured immediately and there's no paperwork to lose. Then, the customer will either get a print out of the receipt, or have it emailed to them (rather like buying something from an Apple store where I now get a PDF receipt that is in my inbox before I've even left the shop).

The railway industry may move slowly, but it will move - so the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years will see some big changes. I'm sure that smartcards will be introduced and we'll see a radical shake up of ticketing in general.

For now, if you order online, it wouldn't be too hard to include a box that doesn't just say 'I agree to the T&C (link)' but actually displaying that condition (the most important, or certainly the one that would cause the most of an issue for the railcard owner) that doesn't require opening another pop-up window, or downloading a list of T&Cs. As I said, the media would struggle to slag off the railway industry for being unfair if the industry can come back by saying 'But we tell a customer every time they buy a ticket, and they can't even buy the railcard without agreeing that they will carry the card with them at all times) - so that's a PR win for ATOC.

At the TVM, pressing the agree box can then result in the ticket being marked accordingly (is it RA for Restrictions Advised?) - then there is NO excuse WHATSOEVER for being caught on the train without the railcard. At the ticket window, the same would apply - staff ask to see the railcard OR mark the ticket with RA or whatever.

By doing this, you pretty much solve the problem anyway and don't need to do anything clever or expensive. Now you've reiterated the rules every time. At the very least, you may get someone stop to check they have their railcard before agreeing - and if they notice they've lost it (or it's expired) they can do something about it.

If every TOC follows SWT, we might finally solve the problem and stop getting a new thread on here every few weeks!!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

When I went on NXEA (a Norwich train from Liverpool St) before Christmas, I was behind the TM as she went through the train (having been to the cafe bar) and a young girl showed her ticket and was asked to show her railcard. The girl then said 'Sorry, I lost it' so I smirked and thought 'this will be fun'. But, no, the TM just said 'okay' and carried on!!

...

Anyway, the TM might have been feeling in a good move before Christmas, but I thought it sent out the wrong message (and the girl who had lost her card will now be able to argue that she was allowed to travel without her railcard before - and she wouldn't be lying).

And it is exactly this which causes problems and complaints about other staff. I regularly come across people who have had their ticket checked already on previous trains, and have no railcard. And If I had a pound for every time somebody said "nobody else asks to see it" then I could retire now.

That, and perhaps being made fully aware of the consequences of not presenting a railcard at the point of registering/buying your card would stop the problem - or at least stop people complaining. It might even stop the press siding with the passenger when the industry can make it quite clear how there was NO WAY the passenger couldn't have known the importance of carrying the railcard.

In most cases it is, especially if booking online. I had a passenger yesterday who presented a Railcard discounted Advance ticket, but had no Railcard. They had their booking email print out on the table, so I pointed out to the big bold bit which said "You must carry your railcard with you when you travel, if you do not...(blah blah blah)", and stated they would need to pay the full fare again. They then spent 15 minutes arguing about why should they do that, could they not pay an XS fare, could I not use my discretion, etc etc. This is despite the fact that it was clearly stated on the print out. The passenger agreed that she should pay the full fare, but was arguing that many rail staff use their discretion, she knows many rail staff use their discretion, and why couldn't I? And when I didn't use my discretion she said she would be complaining as my customer service was poor.

These two points combined make life very difficult. If everybody did the same thing - i.e. charged the full fare again, then most complaints and arguments would be avoided. It is simply because some staff don't want the hassle or can't be bothered to even check in the first place, that people (like the girl above on the NXEA train) get complacent and often expect staff to "use their discretion" (i.e. let them off) or only charge an XS fare. Those staff that do it properly are then, rather unfairly, branded the ones with poor customer service, bad attitude etc - simply because they haven't used their "discretion".

 

[142094]

Probably the best thing will be when tickets become smartcards - then a railcard is loaded onto the smartcard and if you don't have the smartcard you cannot travel in the first place.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, you'd be expected to swipe the smartcard on the machine to get the ticket (and if ordering online, presumably you'd have the railcard 'attached' to your account somehow).

This is an issue that will be resolved one day, I hope!

 

[Flamingo]

Forget a new anytime ticket, you would have been justified in going to TIR/MG11!

I prefer instant justice

 

[island]

I prefer instant justice

And commission

 

[jon0844]

It's the same with an advanced ticket booked for a specific train. Nobody would attempt to fly on an earlier or later plane with an advanced/non-changeable ticket.

Nor would you miss a theatre/cinema performance and just expect to go into the next performance.

As I've said many times, when it comes to the railway, people don't see anything wrong with trying it on - as it's 'just' the railway.

I doubt many people who will gladly take any opportunity to break the rules would consider stealing from their local shop just because the owner had stepped out back to get something and there was no chance of being caught.

 

[sheff1]

The way that i see it..
you would not turn up to an airport without your passport..so why would you turn up to a station with your tickets and no railcard?

Why not ? As has been pointed out before, you do not need a passport for domestic air travel within the UK (with a few exceptions).

Of course, you do need a railcard to travel with a railcard discounted train ticket but that is a different thing all together.

 

[richw]

Why not ? As has been pointed out before, you do not need a passport for domestic air travel within the UK (with a few exceptions).

Of course, you do need a railcard to travel with a railcard discounted train ticket but that is a different thing all together.

You do however need some form of government approved id for internal flights

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[sheff1]

You do however need some form of government approved id for internal flights

A NUS card; a company ID card of nationally recognised company; a university ID card are all acceptable ID for internal flights. I am pretty sure that none of these are 'government approved' and I doubt whether some of the other obscure, but valid, IDs are either.

 

[LondonJohn]

You do however need some form of government approved id for internal flights

No most of the low cost airlines insist on photo ID. Fly British Airways and you only need your British Airways Executive Club card if you are a member or the debit/credit card you bought the ticket with.

And here we have the USA (Fort Knox 4 borders) letting in a traveller who had forgotten his passport but had a scan of it on his ipad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...s-US-without-passport-thanks-to-his-iPad.html

 

[neilmc]

It's the same with an advanced ticket booked for a specific train. Nobody would attempt to fly on an earlier or later plane with an advanced/non-changeable ticket.

They would if the plane ran every twenty minutes. I was on a Manchester to London train recently and a young person had caught the train prior to the one on which they were booked. Unfortunately it was the train via Crewe and their booked ticket was for the train which runs via Stoke so I couldn't advise the obvious, to get off at the next station, pay for the journey they'd already taken and recommence on the correct train.

In the event, the conductor let them off completely, and why not - it was a quiet off-peak journey and the TOC had suffered no loss. Good on her! But doubtless some other miserable sod would have only had eyes for his commission and tried to charge him the full anytime fare.

I often think that the full anytime fare, whilst being a deterrent for the wilful fare evader, is basically a scam perpetrated on the forgetful, the inexperienced traveller, and the person who doesn't have a home PC and thinks for some reason that the railway station is the obvious place to buy a train ticket. And if the savvy traveller with an advance gets an unavoidable delay, or has mislaid the seat reservation section (mostly a useless requirement which just provides the extra possibility of getting something wrong and being stung for it) so much the better for the TOC who can sell the same journey twice.

When the corner store wilfully charges me twice when I've bought only one tin of value beans, and the second charge is for finest range home-smoked beans with chorizo sausage, I call them fraudsters.