Lenient Guards/Train Managers

[185]

Done something similar a few years back.

RPIs were hiding in the back, and I just briefly went through checking tickets, making sure I made eye contact with every single passenger. Then made a (nice) PA announcement, explaining that all should have their tickets handy for a second check, this time with the RPIs. The genuine passengers were very understanding.

We got six for fare evasion

 

[TTI]

Travelling last week on holiday, I noticed at the stations with ticket offices there were posters stating the £20 penalty fare. I boarded the 2 coach train. Tickets checked within 6 minutes. After the next stop the conducter came around saying any more ticket? The next stop has no ticket office, and he was busy selling tickets. Then I noticed there were 2 conductors both with ticket machines patrolling the train. When we left the station (with ticket office) before I got off a conductor still politely asking everyone 'any more tickets?' When I left the train there were 4 staff on the footbridge, and 4 on the car park exit checking tickets. BTP in attendance. My ticket was quickly checked, and a very polite 'thank you'. A few could not produce a ticket. I really felt sorry for them!!!

Also known as "a sting operation".

The best ones seem to be done by FGW. . . Reading station on a Fri/Sat night they used to let the chavs queue up at the excess fare window, hear them ask for their magic "return from Reading West/Twyford/Tilehurst" (which would have RPI blocks on!) which were issued (after doctoring it through the 'magnetic strip scrambler') and watch the ticket gates reject them with a "seek assistance".
Full name address+short fare tkt retained as evidence for the resultant prosecution.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

In response to Flamingo, 185, Molesey Boy, Best Western and others working trains.
Writing merely as a passenger, I have observed dozens of Guards handling ticketless travel or other irregularities and must say that I have always been impressed by the professionalism and outcomes. Somehow, the right balance between authority and sympathy seems to elicit the payment. I know I could never do the job!

Yes, there are exceptions - e.g. hoards of arrogant drunks with no tickets boarding late at night with little prospect of management by staff and less prospect of operational barriers or BTP, or on crammed morning peak services with young people on child tickets or no ticket or without RC etc. (there may be more revenue to be earned from high volume evaders but the cost of detection, processing and obtaining payment in those brief periods must be disproportionately high).

I'd be happier if TOCs invested more in revenue protection support, and gave real practical back-up to on-board crews in more dedicated operations (e.g. stings) where the benefit to the Company may be more lasting than merely the individual fares collected that day.

 

[150222]

I once witnessed a (aged) guard telling a load of drunk 'chavs' (well 15-16 year olds) that the doors were not opening until everyone had a ticket. Also I was going between Walsden and Todmorden a few years back and a 150 turned up. I sat in the front bit. I was not in any way trying to avoid the fare just I wasn't going to go and find the guard. I stood by the door for the approach to Todmorden and the guard came through and asked for my ticket just as the train stopped at Todmorden. I paid my fare (50p) but he then said that he had to go to the back of the train to do the doors. Yet I knew he could do them from the front. In total he delayed the train by about 3 minutes. He obviously didn't realise I was in the know. That said I don't look like a rail enthusiast and still had my cockney accent at the time. (I used to live in Harringay, Dulwich and Nunhead before leaving the London area in 2008) Surely the guard was breaking the rules by delaying the train over revenue?

 

[yorkie]

...he then said that he had to go to the back of the train to do the doors. Yet I knew he could do them from the front....

I'm not sure why this is. Many guards seem to go only to the back, but I have seen some operate the doors from the front, so it can be done. All I can think of is perhaps at certain stations trains have to be despatched from the rear door?

In total he delayed the train by about 3 minutes...

I don't think it can take 3 minutes to walk through a Class 150, even if it was a pair!

Surely the guard was breaking the rules by delaying the train over revenue?

This will be against company policy.

 

[sheff1]

Personally, I am constantly amazed that we don't just walk through the train saying "Does anybody want to buy a ticket", and leave it at that.

Many guards on Northern services round here do exactly that, and they sell tickets to lots and lots of people as a result.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm not sure why this is. Many guards seem to go only to the back, but I have seen some operate the doors from the front, so it can be done. All I can think of is perhaps at certain stations trains have to be despatched from the rear door?

Currently at some Northern depots and on Merseyrail its back cab only at the moment, kneejerk reaction to the death of Georgia Varley at James St. Anvil1984 and 175001 have confirmed their local instructions before now, I'm sure they'd be happy to do so again if they see this thread.

 

[150222]

I don't think it can take 3 minutes to walk through a Class 150, even if it was a pair!

Bear in mind he asked for my ticket after the train had stopped! It may have been around a minute late anyway though.

 

[BestWestern]

Some guards I know are lenient with respect to selling off peak tickets, but have zero tolerance towards those who refuse to pay. If they're also rude then that's it, train won't move until they're off. Known guards to throw said people's bags off the train. Then again, I've known some guards to get bottled so it's a risky game.

IMO one can't be faint hearted in such a job otherwise the company is just going to lose money.

That is indeed a very risky game, and I would be very surprised if anybody behaving in that way got an ounce of support from their TOC in this day and age. Putting yourself directly in the path of conflict with provocative actions like that will get you no sympathy from the management, if anything they're likely to do their level best to get rid of you.

As for refusing to move or let people alight from the train, it's an ever present bugbear for TOCs that some staff, no matter how may times they are told, just cannot grasp that it is unacceptable, and continue to cause regular headaches by chasing 'dodgers over a few quid to the abandonment of all other responsibility. On top of the issues of delayed trains, inconvenience to other passengers and the likelihood of your 'trapped' scroat getting physical, Guards have ended up being interviewed by the Police for refusing to allow people off a train in a platform, on the grounds of false imprisonment


You can't really do most public-facing jobs if your faint hearted I'd say, but regardless of your attitude the TOCs make it clear that their preferred approach is to sell the easy tickets and leave the rest well alone!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I paid my fare (50p) but he then said that he had to go to the back of the train to do the doors. Yet I knew he could do them from the front. In total he delayed the train by about 3 minutes. He obviously didn't realise I was in the know. Surely the guard was breaking the rules by delaying the train over revenue?

On some Class 150 stock there is a DKS only at either end of the unit and fitted actually inside the cab itself. It's possible that for whatever reason, rule or preference, he didn't want to enter the leading cab. Or it could have been a simple operating fault with a certain panel. But yes, delaying it to sell a 50p ticket (or any ticket, save perhaps an All Line Rover!) would nowadays equal a bollocking.

 

[34D]

On some Class 150 stock there is a DKS only at either end of the unit and fitted actually inside the cab itself. It's possible that for whatever reason, rule or preference, he didn't want to enter the leading cab. Or it could have been a simple operating fault with a certain panel. But yes, delaying it to sell a 50p ticket (or any ticket, save perhaps an All Line Rover!) would nowadays equal a bollocking.

It could even be that the master key thing at the back had been left on? Some TOC mandate that this is switched out and then back in after departing every station others don't.

 

[Fare-Cop]

There aren't enough BTP to attend every fare evasion case.

True, but unless you make that call you don't know that there is no-one to meet your particular incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Frankly, the BTP are often not interested. I've had them sent out in lieu of the requested revenue staff, and nearly had a row with them over their attitude, not at all pleased at being asked to attend. In fairness, it really ought to be up to the train operators to enforce revenue collection, the Police have better things to do on the whole..

BTP also sometimes need to be reminded who it is that pays for their existence. I can well relate to you having rows with them

Once the ports authorities realised they were paying for very little support they got rid and haven't ever gone back.

 

[Anvil1984]

Just to pick up from the Todmorden - Walsden story, if it happened recently 1 reason couldve been door proceedure but that seems to change depot to depot. Some say always at the back, some say you aren't allowed to close from the front but anywhere else is fine.

The more likely reason is that the DKS switch was in the cab, its only in the last couple of years they have been accessable from.the outside of the cab and they still aren't "turned around" on certain units.(our LM 150s and the 155s in particular)

 

[trentside]

I must say, I've got to agree with DaveNewcastle.

I did actually witness a confrontation between a guard and a passenger on the Robin Hood Line last week. The guy had boarded at Worksop with a bike, then moved to the front carriage - it appears he had no ticket, and the guard had him off the train by Creswell. The guy appeared to be quite aggressive, but the guard remained assertive and the guy left the train with just a few muttered expletives.

 

[michael769]

Personally, I am constantly amazed that we don't just walk through the train saying "Does anybody want to buy a ticket", and leave it at that. Because we get ZERO support to do anything more than that!

Over recent months more and more of the guards on my morning (Scotrail) commute are adopting this process.

 

[Flamingo]

Something which is drummed very thoroughly into Guards, certainly at my shack and I would imagine most others also, is that you don't cause undue grief over a revenue issue. Don't delay the train, don't put yourself in the way of a smack in the face, and so on. So working to those general guidelines it is often far better to sell an off-peak and move on.

Something that the general public don't acknowledge

In other words, if you're sufficiently aggressive to staff you can avoid paying for a ticket.

Yes, no question about it.

I can see why staff wouldn't want to challenge a passenger but can't they call the BTP and ask them to meet the train?

As Ralph says

There aren't enough BTP to attend every fare evasion case.

Aren't we in effect saying that staff will only pursue a fare evasion case if the passenger doesn't kick up a fuss?

Yes, in most cases. Our training is to walk away, and not do anything that will 1. endanger us 2. delay the train 3. cause complaints (this is the priority that we get told, but I personally think that 2, 3, & 1 may be a bit more accurate - I've had a lot more grief over delay minutes and complaints than I have had enquiries about my wellbeing).

 

[dvboy]

OK today from Shirley to Moor St a passenger produced an unpaid fare notice (or something) from Rugby to Moor St earlier in the day. The guard said to him "they let you through at Moor St with this?" the pax replied yes, he said "OK next time make sure that 1: they write the desitination on it and 2. it's not a return so you're liable for another one on the way back." and let him travel onwards. I assume the guard thought he'd get done again at Moor Street anyway so not worth the hassle.

 

[BestWestern]

OK today from Shirley to Moor St a passenger produced an unpaid fare notice (or something) from Rugby to Moor St earlier in the day. The guard said to him "they let you through at Moor St with this?" the pax replied yes, he said "OK next time make sure that 1: they write the desitination on it and 2. it's not a return so you're liable for another one on the way back." and let him travel onwards. I assume the guard thought he'd get done again at Moor Street anyway so not worth the hassle.

This highlights another issue which on-train staff have to contend with, which is the slapdash and sometimes illogical decisions that are sometimes made by our colleagues elsewhere, be they fellow Guards or staff at gatelines or ticket offices and so on. When a passenger tells you that they were told to get on your train with an Advance ticket for another service, or that they were allowed through the barriers because they were running late, or whatever else you come across, you have to consider that they may be telling the truth. This is another reason why sometimes the rules aren't enforced to the letter.

 

[Fare-Cop]

This highlights another issue which on-train staff have to contend with, which is the slapdash and sometimes illogical decisions that are sometimes made by our colleagues elsewhere, be they fellow Guards or staff at gatelines or ticket offices and so on. When a passenger tells you that they were told to get on your train with an Advance ticket for another service, or that they were allowed through the barriers because they were running late, or whatever else you come across, you have to consider that they may be telling the truth. This is another reason why sometimes the rules aren't enforced to the letter.

I have a great deal of sympathy for this view and as a TTI then RPI had several years of dealing with this daily before ending up doing what I do now.

I always took the view that just because someone made a pigs ear of their job, didn't mean I had to as well. I know it can be a blasted inconvenience, but I always found that the vast majority of genuine travellers (98% of all passengers) fully understood and if you took the time to explain, were fully supportive.

If the guard/conductor/inspector says 'OK, the trouble is that your ticket isn't technically valid, but I can replace it with one that is so you don't have any further problem', the genuine ones are invariably helpful and the ones that are 'trying it on' will be the most likely to argue.

I always train staff to take the travellers details and a brief description of the staff & location where they were told 'it's OK', issue a zero XS and retain the original ticket to submit a very brief TIR. Doing that will help in any attempt to re-educate your colleague (who got it wrong) and save the traveller further inconvenience when they run into the 'jobsworth' (who we all know do exist) on another service or station.

Yes, it does mean a few minutes effort, but you gain the satisfaction of a job well done and it regularly helps identify the traveller who is taking the proverbial too.

 

[benk1342]

... issue a zero XS and retain the original ticket to submit a very brief TIR.

I know this isn't the point of your post, but just to clarify something. I thought that an excess was only valid with the original ticket, so if you retain the original ticket doesn't that make the excess (on its own) invalid?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I know this isn't the point of your post, but just to clarify something. I thought that an excess was only valid with the original ticket, so if you retain the original ticket doesn't that make the excess (on its own) invalid?

A zero fare excess would be valid on its own. The words "Original ticket retained / withdrawn" should be written on the XS (or put the letters TIR in the space provided for the original ticket number) along with your badge number and train headcode.

 

[Flamingo]

when they run into the 'jobsworth' (who we all know do exist) on another service or station.

I presume you mean colleague who is also endeavouring to do the right thing as they interpret the relevant NRCoC and Railway Bylaws...

 

[Yew]

when they run into the 'jobsworth' (who we all know do exist) on another service or station.

I presume you mean colleague who is also endeavouring to do the right thing as they interpret the relevant NRCoC and Railway Bylaws...

Or someone who is unlikely to beleive that have been given permission to travel by an authorised person?

 

[Flamingo]

The ghostly "man on the platform", you mean. He's even been on the platform at stations where all the staff on duty were female...

 

[Sapphire Blue]

The ghostly "man on the platform", you mean. He's even been on the platform at stations where all the staff on duty were female...

Doesn't mean it's never true . .

I asked for a ticket from Preston to Blackpool North and a ticket back from Blackpool South. The tickets produced were a return with Blackpool North on them. When I queried this (being willing to pay whatever it took) the ticket office clerk said.

And I quote exactly


"That is the ticket you want. You will have no problems at all coming back from Blackpool South with them. If you do, just tell the guard that I said it was OK."

I immediately thought of this forum and chuckled

(The ticket office involved was over 50 miles away. I did have no problems using the ticket as it was not checked BPS > PRE)

 

[Wyvern]

Why not a Blackpool All Stations?

 

[AlterEgo]

"That is the ticket you want. You will have no problems at all coming back from Blackpool South with them. If you do, just tell the guard that I said it was OK."

This is actually the correct advice. Local instructions are that passengers from Blackpool North or South can use tickets to and from either station. This is not advertised anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why not a Blackpool All Stations?

No such thing.

 

[First class]

Why not a Blackpool All Stations?

It exists, but no fares are priced to the group.

NLC 0426

 

[yorkie]

(The ticket office involved was over 50 miles away. I did have no problems using the ticket as it was not checked BPS > PRE)

The topic crops up every so often here.

I am not surprised you had no problems, but I do not believe it was because the ticket was not checked. It has been widely reported on this forum that tickets to Blackpool North are accepted from Blackpool South, this has been confirmed by people who are regular to the route.

 

[calc7]

Recently, a passenger opposite me boarded a Cross Country service at BHM with a Virgin only ticket to Wolverhampton and the TM said he would let her off this time, but it was an invalid ticket.

I am at Wolverhampton at the moment waiting on the 1845 to Euston to leave. The fact that Virgin and XC both operate Voyagers, often within minutes of each other, doesn't help matters. And, as already mentioned, Virgin used to operate those XC Voyagers!

And, unlikely that Virgin even care - VT only and Any Permitted are both valid on their trains!

 

[dvboy]

I am at Wolverhampton at the moment waiting on the 1845 to Euston to leave. The fact that Virgin and XC both operate Voyagers, often within minutes of each other, doesn't help matters. And, as already mentioned, Virgin used to operate those XC Voyagers!

And, unlikely that Virgin even care - VT only and Any Permitted are both valid on their trains!

VT don't care - they get the money regardless. XC should care because they don't get any money from Virgin Only tickets.