ANorthernGuard
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Thankyou just say it as I see it
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The state of Northerns stock
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I travel on Northern and have to say that the trains seem to have been got cheap on e-bay but they are clean - you can clean as much as you like but if the surface being cleaned is past it it will never look clean and most of the staff are excellent.
From what I read it seems like the franchise specification was wrong and based on assumptions that were either miscalculated or simply time overtook them.
Given the tools they have to work with they do a decent job.
If they had been given significant investment they could have done better (give me a prize for stating the bleeding obvious).
From what I read it seems like the franchise specification was wrong and based on assumptions that were either miscalculated or simply time overtook them.
Given the tools they have to work with they do a decent job.
If they had been given significant investment they could have done better (give me a prize for stating the bleeding obvious).
duffman82
Member
I've been on a dirty train once or twice with northern, but there never as bad as some people are overstating in this thread. Like the point is being said, with a company who has a huge area to cover and a lot of operations to deal with you can understand the odd mark or mess here or there! They're still doing the job you want them too getting you A to B!!! And cannot fault the staff wonderful experiences all times travelling with Northern!
I'll be taking more note as I embark on a few trips with Northern in the near future thanks to the £10 offer they're doing.
I have travelled Northern a few times recently and the stock on the whole isn't all that bad. The 333's are pretty good (the older coaches are a little warn but nothing too bad) and the 323's are also good. With the 323's even the non-refurbed ones aren't too bad (was impressed with the fact the toilets had running HOT water...even the likes of EC don't seem to be able to manage that one!) and the new ones currently look fantastic (though how long it will last is debateable given I saw someone grab one of the handles on the seat and it fell off in their hand!)
Not quite ready to attempt to use the toilets on a Pacer yet though!
I have travelled Northern a few times recently and the stock on the whole isn't all that bad. The 333's are pretty good (the older coaches are a little warn but nothing too bad) and the 323's are also good. With the 323's even the non-refurbed ones aren't too bad (was impressed with the fact the toilets had running HOT water...even the likes of EC don't seem to be able to manage that one!) and the new ones currently look fantastic (though how long it will last is debateable given I saw someone grab one of the handles on the seat and it fell off in their hand!)
Not quite ready to attempt to use the toilets on a Pacer yet though!
David
Established Member
Good luck with that! Firstly, you've got to find a space in a car park* (there's only 25 spaces at Eccles station itself), so your looking at a minimum of £2.50 a day, but most probably £5.Secondly, looking at the AA route planner, it is 24.3 miles from Huyton railway station to Eccles railway station. Assuming a modern car that does average 50mpg, your still looking at £6 in fuel (another assumption here, it's a return journey your making). That's already dearer than the single.
Thirdly, again I'm making an assumption here, but a return from Eccles to Manchester Central Zone is £4.10 Running total assuming you can get a space in the car park that charges £2.50/day is £12.60. Not a lot of difference.
Fourthly, any delays on the roads that make you late for work (the M62/M60/M606 can get very heavily congested between 7am and 10am), and it's your fault for not allowing enough time to get to work at a suitable time. Any delays to the trains is out of your control, and depending on the severity of the delay, you could get some money back.
Personally, if I was in the same situation as you, I would stick to the railways. PS. Wouldn't a season ticket work out cheaper anyway?
*Car parks at or near Eccles station.
Just spent the day doing several hundred miles on 11 Northern services. Agree with the comments regarding Northern guards, very friendly and do their job well.
All 11 trains were on time and I had a few tight connections and made them all. Heating worked on all of them. All train interiors were also clean, 156440 is probably the cleanest train interior I have ever seen. The trains are pretty comfortable compared to other TOCs as well, the 156s especially which have pretty decent seats and plenty of tables - better than a lot of InterCity stock.
The thing that does let Northern down, especially on the west of the Pennines is the train exteriors. Some are pretty dirty, but that, compared to the service, the interior and comfort, is really very far down on my list of caring.
All 11 trains were on time and I had a few tight connections and made them all. Heating worked on all of them. All train interiors were also clean, 156440 is probably the cleanest train interior I have ever seen. The trains are pretty comfortable compared to other TOCs as well, the 156s especially which have pretty decent seats and plenty of tables - better than a lot of InterCity stock.
The thing that does let Northern down, especially on the west of the Pennines is the train exteriors. Some are pretty dirty, but that, compared to the service, the interior and comfort, is really very far down on my list of caring.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
sounds like a grand days bashing! Proves a point too that northern are more than capable of running a good service.
I raised the first comment about staff and stick by what I said.... In general Northern on-train and ticketing staff are OK people - polite, helpful where they can be.. so thank-you
The only staff I have a general beef with are gateline staff (MCV perhaps being the worst). I've been told on this thread they are outsourced staff (G4) in disguise (in Northern Uniform). The trouble is if they are in Northern Uniform then they are representing the business and their general attitude and demeanor mean they really let the rest of the good staff down.
I rang Northern Customer service to complain about the attitude of these people and was met by the same attitude - I was clearly in the wrong by giving feedback about the gateline staff
driver9000
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How can Northern be held to blame for bidding on the terms of the franchise decided on by the government? Considering the terms of the franchise Northern has gone way above what is required of them by refreshing the interiors of some of the fleet (multiple vehicle owners means multiple agreements which have not always been granted) and fighting and begging for additional rolling stock. With any luck DfT have learnt that no growth, no investment franchises are a mistake and we'll never see another one on Britains railway system.
Northern isn't perfect - no TOC is - but they are better than their predecessors. Given the circumstance and hand they were dealt they've done well and I would like to see what they could do given the opportunity for full refurbishment and fleet renewal.
ANorthernGuard
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I raised the first comment about staff and stick by what I said.... In general Northern on-train and ticketing staff are OK people - polite, helpful where they can be.. so thank-you
The only staff I have a general beef with are gateline staff (MCV perhaps being the worst). I've been told on this thread they are outsourced staff (G4) in disguise (in Northern Uniform). The trouble is if they are in Northern Uniform then they are representing the business and their general attitude and demeanor mean they really let the rest of the good staff down.
I rang Northern Customer service to complain about the attitude of these people and was met by the same attitude - I was clearly in the wrong by giving feedback about the gateline staff
The trouble with G4S is poor training, poor selection of employees, poor pay and the poor attitude of some of their staff. I have had a few run ins with them over the years, they are cheap labour and since Ian Bevan took over from Heidi Mottram everything is about making as much money for the company and less for the staff, our commission has nose dived and morale is at an all time low. we used to get £25 worth of vouchers as a Xmas bonus, they went last year, In our magazine we got told it was due to the "current economic climate" even though they made millions in Profit. We used to have a family fun day once a year, tickets were limited but it gave Morale a boost...they went Last Year as well, we are demoralised and fed up but we still do our utmost for our passengers, unfortunetly The Higher management do not feel that way about their staff. Internally its a sorry state of affairs for us but the majority of us will always do our best for our passengers and always will (until Mcnumpty gets his way)
Nym
Established Member
Quite, I have noticed an increased contempt for managment among a lot of the staff actually employed by Northern since Heidi left, but I would say the vast majority of them don't let the idiots at the top grind them down.
Perhaps Ian Bevan doesn't realise that if his staff are better motiviated it does change the income of the company, is a guard that is for lack of a better word ****ed off with his managment going to make the effort to check tickets between Bolton and Victoria (that I have seen a drop in again recently, and hence an increase in fare evasion) when he/she doesn't see as much comission from it, gets no thanks from managment, and usually ends up taking a shed tonne of abuse from someone who thinks the world owes them a free ride, (5ft9, 14st, brown hair, always boards between 0945 and 1025 onto a Victoria service so he can avoid the barriers, uses a blocked Natwest Visa card to attempt to pay the kicks off when it doesn't work, that he knows full well it won't).
Is a motiviated employee, even if he/she does check tickets, likely to start reporting suspected serial fare evaders up the chain so something can be done about it? No...
When managment cut our wages and terms everyone at work started working to rule and slowing everything down, ques instantly got much longer and turnover droped by about 10% the week after we had the pay and conditions cut. Every time someone complained at us for not doing someting exactly right, the routine got longer and longer per customer, the re-stocking took longer, everything took longer because no-one can be bothered. I had the feeling this is starting to happen among NT's employed staff anyway, but now I know why. It's nice to know though, for both sides, that I havn't seen an appreciable drop (among most on duty staff) in the level of courtusy and service to paying cutsomers.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
my first ever journey with Northern was on the S and C and Hidy herself was onboard talking to staff and pax and giving a really good impression. I too had noticed a change since Ian came in and was infact traveling regularly with northern when it happened and its interesting to have confirmation that things aint much fun for staff now. 6n G4s il say one word, shamefull! Keep it up northern employees, despite the top brass your doing a grand job. Id be interested to hear from the staff hanging around here who you want to win the new franchise?
I mentioned early in this thread, once in total frustration, I wrote to Ian Bevan... result... totally ignored!! The impression I get... he doesn't give a s**t about his customers and from what we read above about the staff either. Short sighted, poor Leadership and as has been pointed out ultimately will lose revenue. The irony is he will probably get a big fat bonus when he goes leaving a trail of poor morale behind him...
I'm happy to meet Mr Bevan anytime to discuss his TOC... perhaps early one winters morning on a freezing cold 2-carriage dirty (yes dirty!) old sprinter (or whatever they are called) out of Parbold for Manchester that will be totally overcrowded by Ince. I know that the Northern Train Manager most likely will be helpful in spite of the way he/she is being treated... he could then travel with me to MCV and watch the G4 staff laugh at us trying to make a connection for Halifax and being even more highly amused when we miss it because we were late inbound!
I travel 30,000 rail miles per year on many of the TOCs - those who defend the state of Northern's rolling stock should come with me on Virgin, or East Mids, or Southern or anywhere and then you will see what a clean, tidy, well presented train generally looks like (and no not always all perfect but the average/general standards are what I mean)
There are some refurbished Northern Carriages, there are some clean ones but most of the time (on the Southport line anyway) they are unpleasant to travel on.
I don't understand why people who write to MDs of companies expect a reply. They have better things to do with their time, such as running the company.
I also don't understand why people who travel in the peak expect trains not to be busy. In provincial towns there will never be a business case to replicate the London model of having trains sat in sidings for the majority of the time and only used in the morning and evening peak.
Comparing a franchise like Northern to Virgin is also rather silly. Virgin trains usually have a 30 - 40 minute turnround which is ample to clean the train before its next journey and run to major cities. Northern often have more like 10 minutes and many run to small towns on branch lines. Do you expect Northern to employ a team of cleaners at Ormskirk, Saltburn, Whitby, etc?
I also don't understand why people who travel in the peak expect trains not to be busy. In provincial towns there will never be a business case to replicate the London model of having trains sat in sidings for the majority of the time and only used in the morning and evening peak.
Comparing a franchise like Northern to Virgin is also rather silly. Virgin trains usually have a 30 - 40 minute turnround which is ample to clean the train before its next journey and run to major cities. Northern often have more like 10 minutes and many run to small towns on branch lines. Do you expect Northern to employ a team of cleaners at Ormskirk, Saltburn, Whitby, etc?
As far as I could see nothing else had changed - it was still in LM livery. Didn't notice the floor to be any different.[/QUOTE]
I was on an ex-LM 150 on Friday that had very shabby seat covers. It was in a de-branded Network West Midlands livery with a Northern vinyl stuck over the top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern have many services which are around 60 or 90 minutes in length, effectively meaning off-peak that the turnaround times at both ends added together are around an hour.
There is ample time to clean the units that operate the Chester and Buxton services at Manchester Piccadilly between 10:30 and 16:00 yet they don't choose to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 323s are maintained and cleaned at Longsight i.e. not by Northern.
ANorthernGuard
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I was on an ex-LM 150 on Friday that had very shabby seat covers. It was in a de-branded Network West Midlands livery with a Northern vinyl stuck over the top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern have many services which are around 60 or 90 minutes in length, effectively meaning off-peak that the turnaround times at both ends added together are around an hour.
There is ample time to clean the units that operate the Chester and Buxton services at Manchester Piccadilly between 10:30 and 16:00 yet they don't choose to.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 323s are maintained and cleaned at Longsight i.e. not by Northern.[/QUOTE]
The 323's are also cleaned at Stockport by Northern, Buxtons are cleaned on a regular basis at Picc and so are the Chesters, considering I work them on a regular basis I see it getting done, they are missed occasionaly but certainly not on a regular basis, my only gripe is the cleaners are not on for longer
ANorthernGuard
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It should be included in the rental costs considering how much Northern pay for there stock from the ROSCO's
Absolutely.
YorkshireBear
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Sorry are you under the impression us defending northern only travel on northern? This year i have travelled on- XC, EMT, EC, FTPE, GC, Northern, ATW, Virgin, FCC, SE, FGW, LM and FGW.
And yet i still defend northern.
Yes, I've noticed quite a variation in quality of the LM 150's coming in. Most have been pretty decent even without refurb, but one or two have been quite shabby.
Cheshire Rover
Member
Travelled on two Northern 150's today on the Mid Cheshire line. Both clean (inside), both well populated and both on time. Being used to travelling mainly on 175's, I did find them very noisy though. But for the short trip between Mouldsworth and Mamchester they were fine
Be glad you didn't get back on the one we had out to Glossop when me and Lampshade did - the PTSO was flooded.I'll be taking more note as I embark on a few trips with Northern in the near future thanks to the £10 offer they're doing.
I have travelled Northern a few times recently and the stock on the whole isn't all that bad. The 333's are pretty good (the older coaches are a little warn but nothing too bad) and the 323's are also good. With the 323's even the non-refurbed ones aren't too bad (was impressed with the fact the toilets had running HOT water...even the likes of EC don't seem to be able to manage that one!) and the new ones currently look fantastic (though how long it will last is debateable given I saw someone grab one of the handles on the seat and it fell off in their hand!)
Not quite ready to attempt to use the toilets on a Pacer yet though!
I find that cleanliness is a very mixed bag. I have, as I have stated earlier, never been scared that I will dirty my clothes or cause myself an injury on ANY TOC.
I agree that northerns stock is the tattiest. It is also the oldest and has been the most mistreated since privatisation, mostly by NWT/FNW and made up for a little by northerns rolling refresh programme.
IMHO the "dirtiest" stock has always been part of a first group franchise. I can't speak for FGW but The couple of times I've been on a scotrail SPT liveried 156 its been a little rough, the FTPE 158's were pretty dire in places too, and the 185's never seemed to be cleaned as well as the almost the same age LM 350's.
Anyway my point is that none of the TOC's are particularly dirty, some are a little tatty, but none are dirty. And Northern certainly aren't the worst.
VTPreston_Tez
Member
NXEA were worse, it has been sort of fixed by GA but they still have the worst stock.
There is one way of keeping trains clean - remove the passengers. I know how hard the cleaners work for TOCs (often on low wages) but as soon as a unit has completed its first working of the morning, it will be a tip. Plus not all the time is it little sods leaving rubbish - I've seen quite well to do people in suits leave a mess after eating their lunch and spreading half of it on the table.
The other scourge is the Metro free paper. A good idea at the time but not when you hear it can make up 60% of the litter collected on some services.
The other scourge is the Metro free paper. A good idea at the time but not when you hear it can make up 60% of the litter collected on some services.
D1009
Established Member
Mentioning FGW, last night I travelled on 150101, one of the units displaced from LM by the introduction of 172s. The unit obviously had a major internal refurbishment, and to me, even without considering its age looked like a brand new train. I suspect it will be a while if ever before those transferred to Northern look anything like that.
Well I know from working on a tourist railway (and having to clean it every morning as part of my train prep) just how dirty trains can be, and just how scruffy kids can be. And thats just a steam hauled tourist railway, the mainline must be far, far worse!
Yes they did. And it was awful. And then FNW made it worse.
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