The state of Northerns stock

PR1Berske · 11 Mar 2012

D1009 said:
Mentioning FGW, last night I travelled on 150101, one of the units displaced from LM by the introduction of 172s. The unit obviously had a major internal refurbishment, and to me, even without considering its age looked like a brand new train. I suspect it will be a while if ever before those transferred to Northern look anything like that.

This, right there, validates many of the concerns put forward by posters in this thread and elsewhere (such as the very busy northernfail twitter hashtag)

Customers of Northern are exhausted with cynicism. Regular customers who come into contact with other TOCs, including FGW and others not so further afield, must believe they're being punished for a past-life crime.

Although it is off-topic, I want to join in with the criticism of the staff employed as Income Bouncers or whatever G4S currently label them. An increasing number of those I come into contact with have a dangerous lack of customer focused attitude, and I use the term "dangerous" quite deliberately. I know that these people having no direct relationship with Northern - it is noticeable how their usual uniforms look far more "TOC" than they do "G4S".

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507 001 · 11 Mar 2012

PR1Berske said:
This, right there, validates many of the concerns put forward by posters in this thread and elsewhere (such as the very busy northernfail twitter hashtag)

Yes and it has been explained to you why this is. The franchise was let on the wrong basis, now whether that was the SRA's fault or northern's I won't go into, but you don't seem to want to listen to the (perfectly logical and valid) reasons.

PR1Berske said:
Customers of Northern are exhausted with cynicism. Regular customers who come into contact with other TOCs, including FGW and others not so further afield, must believe they're being punished for a past-life crime.

Oh puhlease, you are exaggerating again. A) most passengers don't come into contact with other TOC's that often and most wouldn't even notice the difference and B) As has been said by several people further up the thread Northern aren't doing as bad a job as you would have us believe. There are TOC's that are doing a much worse job with much newer stock!

PR1Berske said:
Although it is off-topic, I want to join in with the criticism of the staff employed as Income Bouncers or whatever G4S currently label them. An increasing number of those I come into contact with have a dangerous lack of customer focused attitude, and I use the term "dangerous" quite deliberately. I know that these people having no direct relationship with Northern - it is noticeable how their usual uniforms look far more "TOC" than they do "G4S".

Finally something we appear to agree on! They are distinctly lacking in brain cells is one way of describing them. I think this outsourcing of work will come back to bite them when the next franchise re-letting comes round. Interestingly Liverpool Lime Street doesn't have any G4S staff.

YorkshireBear · 11 Mar 2012

My friends cant tell the difference between a 155 158 voyager HST and 185s. I think you are overatting peoples care far too much... So even someone who regularly used EC FTPE or XC wouldnt know difference if they got on a northern 155 on a calverdale service...

Miken · 12 Mar 2012

Wath Yard said:
I don't understand why people who write to MDs of companies expect a reply. They have better things to do with their time, such as running the company.

I also don't understand why people who travel in the peak expect trains not to be busy. In provincial towns there will never be a business case to replicate the London model of having trains sat in sidings for the majority of the time and only used in the morning and evening peak.

Comparing a franchise like Northern to Virgin is also rather silly. Virgin trains usually have a 30 - 40 minute turnround which is ample to clean the train before its next journey and run to major cities. Northern often have more like 10 minutes and many run to small towns on branch lines. Do you expect Northern to employ a team of cleaners at Ormskirk, Saltburn, Whitby, etc?

Of course an MD should respond to customer feedback... customers are the ONLY reason he/she makes any revenue! Maybe you think the TOCs should just play train sets and run around all day empty... the trains wouldn't get dirty and there would be no inconvenient customers around to spoil the operation...

I differentiate between busy and overcrowded - can't you? Are you trying to tell us that Manchester, Leeds & Liverpool are provincial towns and not major cities?

Where do you get 40 minute VT turnaround from.... at Euston it is often 15 minutes or less.. they still get the train out on time and have usually managed to clean it.

I think we should differentiate between an untidy train and a dirty one... I'm not talking about leftover newspapers or paper cups, during the course of a day these do get left - it's ingrained dirt that has clearly been left to build up over generations that gets me.

Yew · 12 Mar 2012

YorkshireBear said:
My friends cant tell the difference between a 155 158 voyager HST and 185s. I think you are overatting peoples care far too much... So even someone who regularly used EC FTPE or XC wouldnt know difference if they got on a northern 155 on a calverdale service...

Maybe not. But when's hey can tell between a neglected interior and one that has been recently refreshed. I was on one of an ex northern 156, and one of my friends commented on how horrible this train was, And then on a different leg of the journey he complimented a refreshed emt version

Welshman · 12 Mar 2012

Gosh, this thread has certainly grown since my original query two days ago re 185s over Copy Pit, but thank you to Lampshade and driver9000 for your answers.

D1009 · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
Yes and it has been explained to you why this is. The franchise was let on the wrong basis, now whether that was the SRA's fault or northern's I won't go into, but you don't seem to want to listen to the (perfectly logical and valid) reasons.

Are you saying that the franchise having been let on the wrong basis is a perfectly logical and valid reason for not maintaining the trains in a presentable condition ?

yorksrob · 12 Mar 2012

Yew said:
Maybe not. But when's hey can tell between a neglected interior and one that has been recently refreshed. I was on one of an ex northern 156, and one of my friends commented on how horrible this train was, And then on a different leg of the journey he complimented a refreshed emt version

Perhaps Northern deliberately didn't refurbish that one because they knew it was going to be snaffled by someone else

I only say this because the majority of units in my experience seem to have had some work done.

D1009 · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
Yes and it has been explained to you why this is. The franchise was let on the wrong basis, now whether that was the SRA's fault or northern's I won't go into, but you don't seem to want to listen to the (perfectly logical and valid) reasons.

A) most passengers don't come into contact with other TOC's that often and most wouldn't even notice the difference

That's why the customer satisfactiuon figures aren't really relevant as they don't know any better.

pemma · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
I agree that northerns stock is the tattiest. It is also the oldest and has been the most mistreated since privatisation, mostly by NWT/FNW and made up for a little by northerns rolling refresh programme.

Under NWT/FNW:
* The 142s (excluding the Merseytravel 142s) all got new seat covers.
* All bar 5 of the 142s that got new seat covers got replacement floor covering and new bike/luggage racks. The 5 excluded ones were supposed to be withdrawn when the Oldham Loop closed.
* The 150s got completely refurbished with new seats and new accessible toilet.
* The 323s got new seat covers.

Under Northern:
* The Merseytravel/ATN 142s haven't had new seat covers.
* The 5 excluded FNW 142s haven't been given replacement floor covers and bike/luggage racks despite now remaining in service.
* The ex-ATN 150s which hadn't been touched internally since BR days, have only been given a refresh not a full refurbishment.
* The ex-LM 150s appear to be going down the same route.

507 001 · 12 Mar 2012

Miken:1015637 said:
I think we should differentiate between an untidy train and a dirty one... I'm not talking about leftover newspapers or paper cups, during the course of a day these do get left - it's ingrained dirt that has clearly been left to build up over generations that gets me.

Well evidently you travel on a different northern rail to me, either that or your seeing things.

Generations? Oh come off it!

Yew · 12 Mar 2012

What ever happens, hopefully the new franchise willhve the cash for a good refurbishment (EMT 158 style). And suddenly I think londoners will feel a little short changed with those new trains they have, after seeing what has been done with their old ones

507 001 · 12 Mar 2012

D1009 said:
Are you saying that the franchise having been let on the wrong basis is a perfectly logical and valid reason for not maintaining the trains in a presentable condition ?

Yes because A) the money isn't available to them and B) there isnt enough stock to cover units that are out of traffic for major overhauls.

jcollins said:
Under NWT/FNW:
* The 142s (excluding the Merseytravel 142s) all got new seat covers.
* All bar 5 of the 142s that got new seat covers got replacement floor covering and new bike/luggage racks.
*The 5 excluded ones were supposed to be withdrawn when the Oldham Loop closed.
* The 150s got completely refurbished with new seats and new accessible toilet.
* The 323s got new seat covers.

Yes and then they ruined it by never cleaning it and allowing the interiors to fall apart, especially the "refurbished" 150's, which actually just had a lick of paint and some new seats, hardly a new interior (apart from the toilet, and even that is in a dark and dingy hole in the inner end of the unit.

jcollins said:
Under Northern:
* The Merseytravel/ATN 142s haven't had new seat covers.

Actually the Merseytravel ones have. Or at least a start has been made on them, I was on one t'other day which looked quite smart inside. Can't speak for the ATN ones as I don't seem to have been on one for aaages!

jcollins said:
* The 5 excluded FNW 142s haven't been given replacement floor covers and bike/luggage racks despite now remaining in service.

Ever thought there might be something called a que?

jcollins said:
* The ex-ATN 150s which hadn't been touched internally since BR days, have only been given a refresh not a full refurbishment.

Well they have been given a full interior repaint, a deep clean and new seat cushions and covers. Its STILL MORE THAN ATN DID :roll:

jcollins said:
* The ex-LM 150s appear to be going down the same route.

Give them a chance for gods sake. Several already have new seat covers, and a few have been repainted. Do you really expect them to have fully refurbished them in 3 or so Months???

wilsontown · 12 Mar 2012

I'd agree with previous posters that the Northern franchise was let on the wrong basis and that the company has been saddled with a job lot of aging units. However, I think the maintenance and cleanliness of Northern's trains is often poor. Some units are in fairly good internal condition, others have carpets with what looks years of ingrained dirt, windows so filthy it's difficult to see out, and luggage racks that leave dirt on anything put in them. It's also worth pointing out the last lot of results of the "Golden Spanners" in Modern Railways. Class 158 and 159 units run by SWT are the most reliable trains on the network, while Northern's 158s are getting about one tenth as many miles between technical incidents. Clearly Northern are not up to speed with maintenance best practice.

AlanFry1 · 12 Mar 2012

ukrob said:
110 class 170 and 172s are not needed for Northern. More electrification and electric stock is needed.

Yes, I agree, but until there is a massive electrification programme, DMU's will still be needed for most of Northerns services

Until then, we need to deal with the trains themselfs!

pemma · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
especially the "refurbished" 150's, which actually just had a lick of paint and some new seats, hardly a new interior (apart from the toilet, and even that is in a dark and dingy hole in the inner end of the unit.

Ignoring the door controls, lights and windows the FNW 150s were refurbished to the same standard as the 357s. If that's just a 'lick of paint' in your opinion then you should be thinking the units where Northern have just given them a lick of paint haven't been touched at all.

Actually the Merseytravel ones have. Or at least a start has been made on them, I was on one t'other day which looked quite smart inside. Can't speak for the ATN ones as I don't seem to have been on one for aaages!

I was on a Merseytravel 142 on Friday and saw another and neither had been touched internally, so it's a case of they've just started not that they've all been done.

Ever thought there might be something called a que?

It must be a post office style queue - extremely slow moving. East Midlands Trains have refurbished more units than Northern has and Northern had a 3 year head start.

Well they have been given a full interior repaint, a deep clean and new seat cushions and covers. Its STILL MORE THAN ATN DID :roll:

Arriva had plans to refurbish them to the same standard as the 156s if they were awarded the new franchise. The Northern Spirit 156s being another example of a full refurbishment.

Give them a chance for gods sake. Several already have new seat covers, and a few have been repainted. Do you really expect them to have fully refurbished them in 3 or so Months???

I am giving them a chance. I said they are going down the same route as the ATN 150s - a refresh not a refurbishment. Northern had a number of the LM 150s well in advance of the December timetable change and only 8 were put in to service before the timetable change, so that gave them a chance to start on refreshing the units before they were put in to service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ukrob said:
110 class 170 and 172s are not needed for Northern. More electrification and electric stock is needed.

That won't happen in time. With rising passenger numbers we need the 319s and 350s to put overcrowding back where it was in 2004. There will still need to be new diesel carriages ordered to replaced Pacers. However, with further electrification we can eliminate the need to order class 150 replacements.

507 001 · 12 Mar 2012

jcollins said:
Ignoring the door controls, lights and windows the FNW 150s were refurbished to the same standard as the 357s. If that's just a 'lick of paint' in your opinion then you should be thinking the units where Northern have just given them a lick of paint haven't been touched at all.

The only things that were new in the refurbs were the seats, floor coverings and the toilet. Everything else was just painted. Most of the panels were NEVER screwed down properly so the units have a tendency to shake themselves to pieces quite frequently, thats the only similarity I can think of between them and Bombardier stock. :roll:

jcollins said:
It must be a post office style queue - extremely slow moving.

well exactly, because there isn't enough stock available to cover more than one or 2 out of traffic at any given time. I'm not sure about the exact numbers of units being refreshed at any given time but I bet it aint a lot!

jcollins said:
Arriva had plans to refurbish them to the same standard as the 156s if they were awarded the new franchise. The Northern Spirit 156s being another example of a full refurbishment.

ah yes but if this had been northern you would be criticising them for not going fast enough. And the Northern spirit refurbs were horrible anyway, mostly beige with a bit of green and rock hard seats. The lighting wasn't too bad though.

jcollins said:
I am giving them a chance. I said they are going down the same route as the ATN 150s - a refresh not a refurbishment. Northern had a number of the LM 150s well in advance of the December timetable change and only 8 were put in to service before the timetable change, so that gave them a chance to start on refreshing the units before they were put in to service.

Maybe they figure that the LM 150's weren't too bad (which they aren't) and that there was more important stock to be refreshed?

pemma · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
The only things that were new in the refurbs were the seats, floor coverings and the toilet. Everything else was just painted. Most of the panels were NEVER screwed down properly so the units have a tendency to shake themselves to pieces quite frequently, thats the only similarity I can think of between them and Bombardier stock. :roll:

New seats are the most expensive part. Northern looked at new seats for the ex-FNW 156s but decided against them due to cost and the padding on those units is now very lose on those units due to it not really being designed to be taken out and forced back in again.

The addition of an accessible toilet on the 150s means those 150s are the most compliant 150s in operation.

well exactly, because there isn't enough stock available to cover more than one or 2 out of traffic at any given time. I'm not sure about the exact numbers of units being refreshed at any given time but I bet it aint a lot!

If Northern had been willing to put their hand in their pocket, they could have used the 12x142s that were sat in Blackpool Sidings for months on end to cover refurbishment. FGW took on extra units to cover refurbishment but Northern wouldn't even pay to use units they already had to cover refurbishment.

ah yes but if this had been northern you would be criticising them for not going fast enough.

The poor state of those 150s was mainly down to Valley Lines. ATN kept them on shorter services but as soon as Northern got them all the 150s were in a common pool and the ex-ATN ones were just as likely to appear on a 2.5 hour run as an ex-FNW one.

Maybe they figure that the LM 150's weren't too bad (which they aren't) and that there was more important stock to be refreshed?

You have very strange views. The FNW 150 refurbishment wasn't good enough in your opinion but the LM 150s are OK despite very worn seat covers.

507 001 · 12 Mar 2012

jcollins said:
New seats are the most expensive part. Northern looked at new seats for the ex-FNW 156s but decided against them due to cost and the padding on those units is now very lose on those units due to it not really being designed to be taken out and forced back in again.

The addition of an accessible toilet on the 150s means those 150s are the most compliant 150s in operation.

That doesn't make it a particularly nice place to be! I have no memory of what they were like before the years of mistreatment, I was only 9 at the time of refurbishment, but I'm going on what they are like now, and the fact of the matter is that those 150's that are still in original condition are by far and away nicer than the refurbed ones. I find the original seats comfier too.

jcollins said:
If Northern had been willing to put their hand in their pocket, they could have used the 12x142s that were sat in Blackpool Sidings for months on end to cover refurbishment. FGW took on extra units to cover refurbishment but Northern wouldn't even pay to use units they already had to cover refurbishment.

The poor state of those 150s was mainly down to Valley Lines. ATN kept them on shorter services but as soon as Northern got them all the 150s were in a common pool and the ex-ATN ones were just as likely to appear on a 2.5 hour run as an ex-FNW one.

Yes and the state that northerns stock is in is down to FNW, see the similarities? Yet what you are saying is that they should have been refurbished instantly! Yet they weren't with ATN, but that was ok wasnt it?

jcollins said:
You have very strange views. The FNW 150 refurbishment wasn't good enough in your opinion but the LM 150s are OK despite very worn seat covers.

You have to look at it in terms of age, the LM interiors are near as dammit the originals, yet they aren't in too bad condition. The NWT refurbs were what, ten-eleven years ago? Yet they are shockingly shoddily built and are often vibrating like crazy when the engine is Idling! The NWT ones seem a bit more claustraphobic too but thats just me.
I still say that there are far far worse trains out there than northerns.

pemma · 12 Mar 2012

507 001 said:
That doesn't make it a particularly nice place to be! I have no memory of what they were like before the years of mistreatment, I was only 9 at the time of refurbishment, but I'm going on what they are like now, and the fact of the matter is that those 150's that are still in original condition are by far and away nicer than the refurbed ones. I find the original seats comfier too.

I agree that the 150s could have been refurbished to a higher standard but in my opinion the higher standard would have been like the ATW 150s, which would have meant less seats and the North West couldn't afford to reduce seats on trains by that level.

Yet what you are saying is that they should have been refurbished instantly!

No I'm not saying that there must be a little voice in your head is telling you that I said that. When I mentioned the LM stock you claimed I was saying that they all should have been refurbished when I said nothing of the sort.

The fact is Northern have had 8.5 years to refurbish stock and they haven't fully refurbished a single train, they've refreshed a number of trains but many haven't even had a refresh.

I still say that there are far far worse trains out there than northerns.

Would you care to state what they are? In my opinion the 142s are the worse trains in operation and Northern are one of the two operators that use them. The other operator- ATW restricts them more to shorter services and has fitted them with 2+2 seating.

Lampshade · 12 Mar 2012

The seats in the ex-FNW 150s are absolutely dreadful; the (original) Ashbourne seats in 150268-277 and the ex-London Midland units are much more comfortable.

AlanFry1 · 12 Mar 2012

I think we can all agree that Northern Rails fleet need improvement then

Lampshade · 12 Mar 2012

AlanFry1 said:
I think we can all agree that Northern Rails fleet need improvement then

Not quite; the 321s and 322s are fine.

AlanFry1 · 12 Mar 2012

Lampshade said:
Not quite; the 321s and 322s are fine.

Those are fairly new and in the case of the 322, not well used

What about the 323 and 333?

142094 · 12 Mar 2012

jcollins said:
* The Merseytravel/ATN 142s haven't had new seat covers.

You must be unlucky on the west side as I've seen a good few ex-ATN units with new seat and headrest covers applied in the past year or so (but still in the Northern Spirit style). I even have a picture somewhere with the tag that had the date of installation.

Lampshade · 12 Mar 2012

AlanFry1 said:
Those are fairly new and in the case of the 322, not well used

What about the 323 and 333?

The 323s were looking tired with a 'bubbling up' lino floor and threadbare upholstery. However at least 323234 has been refreshed with new seat covers, re-padded seats and a new floor and the result is rather good (better than some new trains actually), although some seat handles are rather... loose.

333s are very intensively used and it shows, but they're still quite tidy.

D1009 · 12 Mar 2012

jcollins said:
If Northern had been willing to put their hand in their pocket, they could have used the 12x142s that were sat in Blackpool Sidings for months on end to cover refurbishment. FGW took on extra units to cover refurbishment but Northern wouldn't even pay to use units they already had to cover refurbishment.

I presume the response to this is that Northern's pockets were empty because the franchise was let in the wrong way. I don't buy this argument at all. I believe that every TOC has an amount of money to spend and has to decide how to spend it. Northern have made a conscious decision not to invest much in their fleet, and by doing so have ended up with the tattiest fleet in the country. By doing so they have let down not only their customers but also the thousands of professional, conscientious and hard working staff who despite this defend their company on this forum.

I hope some of what's been posted on here is fed back to Northern's management.

AlanFry1 · 12 Mar 2012

Lampshade said:
The 323s were looking tired with a 'bubbling up' lino floor and threadbare upholstery. However at least 323234 has been refreshed with new seat covers, re-padded seats and a new floor and the result is rather good (better than some new trains actually), although some seat handles are rather... loose.

333s are very intensively used and it shows, but they're still quite tidy.

That can be solved in both cases with refurbishment

ANorthernGuard · 12 Mar 2012

The 323's are going through a complete overhaul from Bogies up, full deep clean replacement flooring etc etc and they look almost brand new, I do agree the diesels are looking tired but they are 20+ years old and as Northern will be undergoing alot of changes in the next couple of years I can't blame them for not spending much money.

AlanFry1 · 12 Mar 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
The 323's are going through a complete overhaul from Bogies up, full deep clean replacement flooring etc etc and they look almost brand new, I do agree the diesels are looking tired but they are 20+ years old and as Northern will be undergoing alot of changes in the next couple of years I can't blame them for not spending much money.

The diesels (bar 158s) could be replaced by 170s and 172s

The state of Northerns stock

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