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South Wales electrification

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tbtc

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The Tory woman on Question Time tonight mentioned "the Valleys" immediately after mentioning the electrification of the GWML to Cardiff - didn't specify it'd happen but certainly gave that impression.

Then again, Osbourne's Budget wording was intended to sound like he'd electrify Sheffield to Manchester (when he mentioned it in the same breath as other electrifications). Politicians are crafty sods with their words...
 
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anthony263

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I think the problem with Merthyr & Aberdare is that there are no sidings there unlike Rhymney or Treherbert and the units have to come up with Cardiff in fact the 1st train from Cardiff to Merthyr seems to split at Abercynon with one unit going to Merthyr the other to Aberdare.

I suppose you could built a siding to hold a unit in overnight at Aberdare but you then the have the the problem with staff
 

Markdvdman

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I think the problem with Merthyr & Aberdare is that there are no sidings there unlike Rhymney or Treherbert and the units have to come up with Cardiff in fact the 1st train from Cardiff to Merthyr seems to split at Abercynon with one unit going to Merthyr the other to Aberdare.

I suppose you could built a siding to hold a unit in overnight at Aberdare but you then the have the the problem with staff

The irony is that Merthyr once had the best station in the Valleys bar none! It is however very restrictive with a 6:38am start from Merthyr - even the first bus gets to Cardiff earlier!
 

anthony263

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Ideally I wish there was facilties to stable units at Pontypridd or Abercynnon to enable Merthyr to get a earlier service.
That said nothing about perhaps having two units work a earlier morning train from Treherbert with 1 unit being detached at Pontypirdd then work empty to Merthyr
 

Greenback

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I would not say that the Merthyr line gets more passengers than Treherbert or Aberdare. On my own journeys in the Valleys I haven't seen m,any lightly loaded services, but the ones in the Rhondda Valley seem to be some of the busiest.

Treherbert gets earlier trains because it has a train crew depot, and trains stable there overnight. Mind you, I do agree that Merthry deserves an earlier service, but the trian has to get up there from Cardiff.

I agree that electrification is the best solution.
 

Markdvdman

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I would not say that the Merthyr line gets more passengers than Treherbert or Aberdare. On my own journeys in the Valleys I haven't seen m,any lightly loaded services, but the ones in the Rhondda Valley seem to be some of the busiest.

Treherbert gets earlier trains because it has a train crew depot, and trains stable there overnight. Mind you, I do agree that Merthry deserves an earlier service, but the trian has to get up there from Cardiff.

I agree that electrification is the best solution.

Merthyr does not get more passengers because they have far better road solutions. In fact a million miles better! That is a very good reason plus they have a very good Stagecoach bus service to Cardiff every 15 mins at peak. I doubt Treherbet and Aberdare have such luxuries. Merthyr needs a faster service to take people off the road/bus simple as. However, there is more chance of a Tory being fair minded towards the the working class :lol:
 

WelshBluebird

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Out of curiosity, is electrification able to make much a difference?
From what I can tell, one reason why the journey from the valleys to Cardiff is so slow is because there are an awful lot of stops quite close to each other. So while I could see the advantage in terms of better acceleration, at the same time I can't see much time being saved unless stops are cut out (indeed I wonder how long the journey takes with no stops).

have a very good Stagecoach bus service to Cardiff every 15 mins at peak. I doubt Treherbet and Aberdare have such luxuries.

Not sure about Aberdare, but up the Treherbert direction we don't have a direct bus to Cardiff anymore, you need to change buses at Tonypandy, which makes it totally impractical (although due to the time taken, even a direct service would not be that useful for people commuting to Cardiff).
 

Sun!

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From Aberdare Stagecoach operate 1 bus per hour, but the first gets into Cardiff at 8.55. Not very useful is you have to get to work.
Though that said Stagecoach also operate 4 buses per hour to Pontypridd where you can connect with a through ticket to the Merthyr-Cardiff service. The first bus gets to Ponty at 6.55 so you can easily connect to get to Cardiff early.
Strong competition for the train, though the train is very time competitive.

When Veolia were still in operation there were two additional buses per hour to Cardiff, and the times were better for those commuting to work.
 

Rhydgaled

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I hate hanging around on platforms. It's usually too cold, too hot or wet, as well as tedious!
One thing we need, in my opinion, is a means and willingness to provide waiting room facilities (helping to avoid being too cold / too wet, especially where the cause of said cold is the wind (bus shelters are hopeless against that)) at unstaffed* stations where any form of interchange between public transport takes place or a massive cut down on staff elsewhere in the industry to allow all said stations to be staffed. I think providing 'unstaffed' waiting rooms is more realistic.

*Obviously a public-toilet-attendant type person would need to look in every so often, but that could normally be added to such a person's round anyway, so I would expect would come at little additional cost.

The Valleys Lines NEED the wires as they are too flaming slow due to many factors such as the number of stops, the inclines, the curvatures, and the pathetic rolling stock.

...

I noticed an earlier post mentioning a chord to speed up Merthyr to Cardiff due to the better road conditions from Merthyr to Cardiff as opposed to say Treherbet and Aberdare, they get less passenger usage.
I agree ValleyLines need wires, and speeding up. In my opinion the Merthyr route should be speeded up significantly so it can one day be extended to Brecon and be competitive.

Out of curiosity, is electrification able to make much a difference?
Have you seen the claimed journey time reductions for GWML electrification (even with tonnes of diesel engine to cart around)? That has to be all down to acceleration (apart from the odd removed stop), and I think routes with more stations would gain more from improved acceleration than limited-stop IC services.
 

jopsuk

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Out of curiosity, is electrification able to make much a difference?

In terms of passenger numbers, it is generally the case that electric trains are seen as more attractive- this is part of the "sparks effect". People that wouldn't consider using a diesel service will use an electric one...
 

tbtc

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Out of curiosity, is electrification able to make much a difference?
From what I can tell, one reason why the journey from the valleys to Cardiff is so slow is because there are an awful lot of stops quite close to each other. So while I could see the advantage in terms of better acceleration, at the same time I can't see much time being saved unless stops are cut out (indeed I wonder how long the journey takes with no stops)

It's partly the faster acceleration/ breaking but also the fact that an EMU (maybe eighty metres long, with eight automatic doors in a four coach EMU) is going to be able to cope with passenger volumes much better than a thirty metre Pacer (with only three doors - which have the awkward step as you board/ alight).
 

anthony263

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Some of the valley lines services have a lot of padding in the timetable in fact I have been on trains from Merthyr and Treherbert which have been waiting for up to 5 minutes at the passing loops at Ystrad Rhondda or Merthyr Vale waiting for the train from Cardiff to arrive even when they are on time.

Those of you who did the valley lines challenge a while ago may have noticed this.

I agree with EMU's being better due to better door layout etc.

As for the Aberdare - Cardiff corridor this route used to be a goldmine before through trains from Aberdare to Cardiff were restored howver the introduction of free bus passes etc has seen the number of fare paying passengers reduce which is one reason why the Swansea - Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare bus links were heavily reduced.
 

jopsuk

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It's partly the faster acceleration/ breaking but also the fact that an EMU (maybe eighty metres long, with eight automatic doors in a four coach EMU) is going to be able to cope with passenger volumes much better than a thirty metre Pacer (with only three doors - which have the awkward step as you board/ alight).

Then again, a three car 150 is almost identical in layout to a 318 (or the short-formed 455s a few years ago)
 

anthony263

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The problems I have found with a lot of the ATW clas 150's is that they are sluggish are pulling away from stations although not as bad as the class 153's which are a real problem when they appear on the swanline service
 

Eagle

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The problems I have found with a lot of the ATW clas 150's is that they are sluggish are pulling away from stations although not as bad as the class 153's which are a real problem when they appear on the swanline service

Come to Coventry, where you frequently get a 153 and a 390 departing simultaneously. Guess which one is faster off the mark...
 

Greenback

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Merthyr does not get more passengers because they have far better road solutions. In fact a million miles better! That is a very good reason plus they have a very good Stagecoach bus service to Cardiff every 15 mins at peak. I doubt Treherbet and Aberdare have such luxuries. Merthyr needs a faster service to take people off the road/bus simple as. However, there is more chance of a Tory being fair minded towards the the working class :lol:

Yes, the fact that Merthyr has a pretty good road link to Cardiff assists the bus service, while the train service is hampered by the lack of a staff depot and stabling sidings.

Merthyr certainly deserves earlier services to the capital.
 

Batman

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I don't really know the area that well, but is Merthyr still seen as a relic of industrial decline, or is it now an up and coming commuter town with the rail service being its biggest asset?
 

Nym

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It would be an even bigger commuter town with the sparks effect that electrification could bring. As will all of the valley towns, more so than currently, especially if this is combined with brand new and will branded and marketed rolling stock.

"Yes we're ordering things that seem like the're too long now, but if every single previous electrification and major improvements scheme of the last 20 years has taught us anything, we'll need it!"
 

Batman

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It would be an even bigger commuter town with the sparks effect that electrification could bring. As will all of the valley towns, more so than currently, especially if this is combined with brand new and will branded and marketed rolling stock.

"Yes we're ordering things that seem like the're too long now, but if every single previous electrification and major improvements scheme of the last 20 years has taught us anything, we'll need it!"

I find it slightly hard to believe that a railway electrification scheme on its own will attract people to an area. I don't think your average commuter cares much as to whether their train is a DMU or EMU. Or course things like new rolling stock and station refurbishments will help paint a better picture of the railway for travelers, but I don't think potential commuters will loose much sleep over their new rolling stock being a 172 rather than a 350 or 379.
 

Nym

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Passenger numbers post electrification seem to argue with your point there.

It's been happening since the 1920s with Southern Railway and more recently the likes of the major improvements to the West London and East London lines. Or for a more direct comparison, the Leeds commuter line electrification attracted a hell of a lot of new passengers to the line and increased property prices on the electrified lines, indicating the populous finding these areas more attractive to live.
 

YorkshireBear

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I find it slightly hard to believe that a railway electrification scheme on its own will attract people to an area. I don't think your average commuter cares much as to whether their train is a DMU or EMU. Or course things like new rolling stock and station refurbishments will help paint a better picture of the railway for travelers, but I don't think potential commuters will loose much sleep over their new rolling stock being a 172 rather than a 350 or 379.

Like nym says the figures disagree with you.

Look at the airdale and whafdale electrification schemes, a 2/3 car pacer per hour into a 4 car 23m EMU every 30 minutes and crowded to uncomfortable levels in the peaks. The reason it is brand new EMUs is because the second hand EMUs went down very well with commuters. It had huge effects with population increases in the skipton/ilkley/keighley/shipley areas increasing exponentially. I imagine the birmingham cross city electrification had similar effects.
 

ainsworth74

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I can't think of one electrification scheme that has failed to at the least meet it's projected ridership figures (and many beat them).
 

YorkshireBear

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I can't think of one electrification scheme that has failed to at the least meet it's projected ridership figures (and many beat them).

Airdrie Bathgate recently excelled it's projected useage didn't it too?

And like you say, can't think of a failed electrification scheme anywhere in this country, that speaks volumes.
 

Solaris

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The electrification of the Valley lines will increase the TTWA of Cardiff and make it more commutable from places in Heads of The Valleys through quicker and more frequent services. Given housing pressures in Cardiff, this will undoubtedly lead to more people chosing to live out of Cardiff and commute in (80,000 already do today). This will increase the GVA/Capita of the region as a whole but more importantly increase the GDHI in places in the valleys that have struggeled since the demise of the traditional heavy industries that created those settlements in the first place. This kind of benefit will have been modelled in the business case prepared for the scheme.
 

Greenback

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I don't really know the area that well, but is Merthyr still seen as a relic of industrial decline, or is it now an up and coming commuter town with the rail service being its biggest asset?

At the moment it's a bit of both in my opinion. It is a regional centre for quite a lot of things, with good shopping opportunities to boot.

It is a bit far in terms of journey times to be a major centre for commuting into Cardiff at the moment. But if journey times can be reduced the area (including the valley south of Merthyr) will become a more attractive option for those wishing to work in Cardiff or its environs and live outside the city.

The electrification of the Valley lines will increase the TTWA of Cardiff and make it more commutable from places in Heads of The Valleys through quicker and more frequent services. Given housing pressures in Cardiff, this will undoubtedly lead to more people chosing to live out of Cardiff and commute in (80,000 already do today). This will increase the GVA/Capita of the region as a whole but more importantly increase the GDHI in places in the valleys that have struggeled since the demise of the traditional heavy industries that created those settlements in the first place. This kind of benefit will have been modelled in the business case prepared for the scheme.

I agree. Electrification will have a very beneficial effect.
 

anthony263

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It would also be very benefictial for other area's such as Swansea & Maesteg if the wires reach them especially in the case of the swanline which is very poor during the off peak.

An hourly electric swanline service should encourage more people to use it and hopefully relieve some of the pressure on the FGW and the other ATW services between Swansea & Cardiff which can be terrible especially the Manchester services when on a 2 carriage class 175 is used as I am sure Mr Greenback will be able to testify.
 

Greenback

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It would also be very benefictial for other area's such as Swansea & Maesteg if the wires reach them especially in the case of the swanline which is very poor during the off peak.

An hourly electric swanline service should encourage more people to use it and hopefully relieve some of the pressure on the FGW and the other ATW services between Swansea & Cardiff which can be terrible especially the Manchester services when on a 2 carriage class 175 is used as I am sure Mr Greenback will be able to testify.

Indeed. The line between Swansea and Cardiff really needs an hourly stopping service, as well as longer ATW fast trains. Passengers always have to be encouraged to use the HST's due to overcrowding on services, even 3 car 175's can be rammed on departure from Cardiff Central.
 

anthony263

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Indeed. The line between Swansea and Cardiff really needs an hourly stopping service, as well as longer ATW fast trains. Passengers always have to be encouraged to use the HST's due to overcrowding on services, even 3 car 175's can be rammed on departure from Cardiff Central.


Yes I have seen the 16:04 Milford Haven service a few months ago being packed to the rafters even with a 3 carriage 175 of course its gotten worse now that it goes to Fishguard and is only a 2 carriage unit.
 

Batman

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Like nym says the figures disagree with you.

Look at the airdale and whafdale electrification schemes, a 2/3 car pacer per hour into a 4 car 23m EMU every 30 minutes and crowded to uncomfortable levels in the peaks. The reason it is brand new EMUs is because the second hand EMUs went down very well with commuters. It had huge effects with population increases in the skipton/ilkley/keighley/shipley areas increasing exponentially. I imagine the birmingham cross city electrification had similar effects.

Again, I still have my doubts about that. I find it hard to believe that if the Cross City line hadn't been electrified and today it was been operated by 172's instead of 323's (still to a 6tph frequency on its central section) it would be any less successful.
 
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