South Wales electrification

Nym · 19 May 2012

Using 172s or the equivalent DMU of the time (Class 150) on the Cross City Line would mean that you couldn't have the frequency, speed or capacity of Class 323s.

You couldn't get a reliable 6tph stopping service with DMUs on the X City Line.

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Greenback · 19 May 2012

anthony263 said:
Yes I have seen the 16:04 Milford Haven service a few months ago being packed to the rafters even with a 3 carriage 175 of course its gotten worse now that it goes to Fishguard and is only a 2 carriage unit.

Yes, I have seen the crowds getting off at Swansea! Adding in those who got off at the other stations, and that train must be a nightmare departing Cardiff Central.

Conversely, though, there is more room after Swansea, presumably because the Fishguard market is smaller than that for Haverfordwest and Milford Haven. When the train ran to Milford it seemed to cotnain quite a lot of long distance passengers for west wales.

tbtc · 19 May 2012

Batman said:
I find it slightly hard to believe that a railway electrification scheme on its own will attract people to an area. I don't think your average commuter cares much as to whether their train is a DMU or EMU. Or course things like new rolling stock and station refurbishments will help paint a better picture of the railway for travelers, but I don't think potential commuters will loose much sleep over their new rolling stock being a 172 rather than a 350 or 379.

Nym said:
Passenger numbers post electrification seem to argue with your point there

I'm tempted to agree with Batman.

Longer trains and better frequencies are the kind of things that people notice (newer trains too). Generally that happens at electrification. But you need to compare like with like. Its no wonder that more people wanted to travel on a three/four coach EMU on the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines (on a better service level) than to travel on the 30m Pacers before.

Passengers won't really notice the difference between a modern 172 and a modern 377 (same length, same frequency, same age etc). They will notice the difference between a Pacer and a four coach EMU though.

The "sparks effect" is more to do with modern trains/ longer trains/ better frequencies than because people notice the fuel that their stock uses.

Greenback said:
Yes, the fact that Merthyr has a pretty good road link to Cardiff assists the bus service, while the train service is hampered by the lack of a staff depot and stabling sidings.

Merthyr certainly deserves earlier services to the capital.

Is it worth another rant about how Holyhead - Cardiff has ten times the capacity now that it had ten years ago, whilst important stations on the Valley lines haven't seen anything like the same enhancements?

Three simple reasons for this:

1. Politics
2. Politics
3. Politics

YorkshireBear · 19 May 2012

Batman said:
Again, I still have my doubts about that. I find it hard to believe that if the Cross City line hadn't been electrified and today it was been operated by 172's instead of 323's (still to a 6tph frequency on its central section) it would be any less successful.

A 172 probably wouldnt allow a 6tph service as there performance is not as good. A 323 has incredible acceleration performance. It is much easier to buy new elecric stock as the buisness case stacks up more. Short distances between stations, with sharp corners with low speed restrictions electric services offer far greater efficiency. I wouldnt be surprised if on the Cross city line 172s couldn't manage over 4tph. the curvy nature i imagine applies well to the valleys too.

You seem to have sidestepped the yorkshire example which is probably the most comparable.

And tbtc, i agree that the sparks effect brings these benefits that could be done by diesels. But electrification makes it far easier to get the newer stock, the newer stock is even better too. It is also greener than diesel (yes even if its coal fired electricity, its still less emissions).

Greenback · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
Passengers won't really notice the difference between a modern 172 and a modern 377 (same length, same frequency, same age etc). They will notice the difference between a Pacer and a four coach EMU though.

The "sparks effect" is more to do with modern trains/ longer trains/ better frequencies than because people notice the fuel that their stock uses.

The one thing that electirifcation brings that you haven't mentioned is faster journeys. In an environment such as the Valleys, the superior acceleration should make significant improvements to journey times.

It is bound to be easier to attract people to live in a village such as Merthyr Vale if it has a faster rail service to Pontypridd and Cardiff (don't underestimate that popularity of the former!).

tbtc said:
Is it worth another rant about how Holyhead - Cardiff has ten times the capacity now that it had ten years ago, whilst important stations on the Valley lines haven't seen anything like the same enhancements?

Yes! Although there have been service imporvement sin the Valleys as well as provision for longer trains. The Holyhead trains are a bit extreme!

tbtc · 19 May 2012

YorkshireBear said:
tbtc, i agree that the sparks effect brings these benefits that could be done by diesels. But electrification makes it far easier to get the newer stock, the newer stock is even better too. It is also greener than diesel (yes even if its coal fired electricity, its still less emissions).

The fact that its significantly easier to get new EMUs than it is to get new DMUs is one of the main reasons I'm in favour of mass electrification - that is a very important factor.

Greenback said:
The one thing that electirifcation brings that you haven't mentioned is faster journeys. In an environment such as the Valleys, the superior acceleration should make significant improvements to journey times

True - it should be a little faster and a little more reliable, but (in my eyes) that's less important than the capacity improvements.

Going off topic, but I'd be interested to know how many more passengers some lines would get if everyone was guaranteed a seat - there must be a number of lines (Harrogate - Leeds being an example near here) where I think a decent number of commuters are put off by short trains (and therefore drive).

Greenback said:
It is bound to be easier to attract people to live in a village such as Merthyr Vale if it has a faster rail service to Pontypridd and Cardiff (don't underestimate that popularity of the former!).

That's an important point - a lot of people assume that Valley services are all about demand to/from Cardiff, but there are a lot of "local" flows too.

Greenback · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
True - it should be a little faster and a little more reliable, but (in my eyes) that's less important than the capacity improvements.

The valleys are a special case in terms of the geography. Although capacity and reliability are also important, I feel that the Valleys would receive greater benefits from faster journeys than many other commuter/local lines.

tbtc said:
Going off topic, but I'd be interested to know how many more passengers some lines would get if everyone was guaranteed a seat - there must be a number of lines (Harrogate - Leeds being an example near here) where I think a decent number of commuters are put off by short trains (and therefore drive).

I am sure that there are quite a few people who have bene put off commuting by rail because of overcrowding. I know several people who won;t consider it because they may not get a seat (it's usually more of a problem in the evening here).

The problem is tempting them back when additional capacity is provided. This is where new or newer trains and faster journeys also come into play. Marketing and letting people know about improvements are almost as vital as making the improvements themselves. This could include promotional fares.

It's definitely the case that many routes could attract extra custom, given the chance of some decent length trains!

LNW-GW Joint · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
Is it worth another rant about how Holyhead - Cardiff has ten times the capacity now that it had ten years ago, whilst important stations on the Valley lines haven't seen anything like the same enhancements?

Objectively, the Marches route sees about 20 tpd today where it was 13 or so before ATW started.
The number of trains Chester-Holyhead is little different to a decade ago.
Doesn't look like 1000% increase to me, more like 25%.

In this timescale the frequencies in the Valleys have been mostly doubled (with significant investment in longer platforms).

Rhydgaled · 19 May 2012

Greenback said:
Indeed. The line between Swansea and Cardiff really needs an hourly stopping service, as well as longer ATW fast trains. Passengers always have to be encouraged to use the HST's due to overcrowding on services, even 3 car 175's can be rammed on departure from Cardiff Central.

My opinon is that electric services between Swansea and Cardiff should be an hourly Swanline (all stations CDF -SWA) and hourly London and an hourly Bristol (calling at Pyle so the hourly diesel Manchester with its lesser acceleration doesn't have to). That'd be 4tph, a much more appropriate service between two of the largest three cities in Wales than at present. The only problem with adding the Bristol services is I'd also have a hourly Carmarthen - Swansea District Line - Cardiff fast service, which means there probably isn't enough capacity left for freight without 4-tracking Bridgend - Port Talbot.

anthony263 said:
Yes I have seen the 16:04 Milford Haven service a few months ago being packed to the rafters even with a 3 carriage 175 of course its gotten worse now that it goes to Fishguard and is only a 2 carriage unit.

Do we know what that service to Fishguard is booked for? Open train times says it is timed for a Pacer!

Greenback said:
Conversely, though, there is more room after Swansea, presumably because the Fishguard market is smaller than that for Haverfordwest and Milford Haven. When the train ran to Milford it seemed to cotnain quite a lot of long distance passengers for west wales.

When is the Milford service now the 16:04 goes to Fishguard?

LNW-GW Joint said:
Objectively, the Marches route sees about 20 tpd today where it was 13 or so before ATW started.
The number of trains Chester-Holyhead is little different to a decade ago.
Doesn't look like 1000% increase to me, more like 25%.

The issue here is not that capacity on the route has increased, it is that capacity is provided by Holyhead - Cardiff direct services rather than seperate direct Holyhead - Manchester and Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester services.

tbtc · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
Is it worth another rant about how Holyhead - Cardiff has ten times the capacity now that it had ten years ago

LNW-GW Joint said:
Objectively, the Marches route sees about 20 tpd today where it was 13 or so before ATW started.
The number of trains Chester-Holyhead is little different to a decade ago.
Doesn't look like 1000% increase to me, more like 25%

Holyhead - Cardiff (which I quoted) has gone up from one train a day (two coach) to something like eight/nine trains a day (up to four coaches long).

That's obviously at the cost of other routes (Manchester - Holyhead, Liverpool - Cardiff, Bristol - Marches).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Greenback said:
The valleys are a special case in terms of the geography. Although capacity and reliability are also important, I feel that the Valleys would receive greater benefits from faster journeys than many other commuter/local lines

There's never been any limited stop services on the Valley lines, have there?

(I don't remember any anyhow)

Ivo · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
There's never been any limited stop services on the Valley lines, have there?

I can't answer that. However, what I can say is that a limited-stop service pattern with stations so close together may disrupt the faster services. It cannot be denied that the likes of Llanbradach need 4tph less than the likes of Caerphilly, but would such a plan really work? The only other note is that several stations, such as Gilfach Fargoed, have a far mroe limited service than most other stations in the Valleys. But I'm sure you knew that!

I see no-one has mentioned stock of late :lol:

anthony263 · 19 May 2012

I have seen some services run non stop from Cardiff to Penarth and to Pontypridd & Porth non stop when they have been late.

As for the 16:04 Milford Haven service I believe there is a service from Cardiff at about 16:40 which forms the 17:35 from Swansea to Milford Haven.

As for Rhydgaled's idea I think 3 trains per hour between Swansea & Cardiff is more than enough and so you can get an hourly service via the Swansea district line and an hourly service from Maesteg in addition to freights.

To give the Maesteg branch a half hourly service you could extend one of the Vale of Glamorgan services or have some service split & attach to the swanline trains @ Bridgend.

Another with Bridgend is that it is a bottleneck with trains wanting to go via the Vale of glamorgan having to go through platform 1 ideally I would like to see the junction altered so that you can acess the vale from platform 2 as well.

Something else I thought of when I was visiting Port Talbot is that it is 4 tracked between Port Talbot Parkway and Margam so perhaps it may be possible for trains to be overtaken there is an additional platform or two are built at Port Talbot parkway including a crossover toallow trains coming from Swansea to be turned back if required.

It would also allow for an additional local service to terminate at Port Talbot perhaps a Llanelli - Port Talbot shuttle which would say call at Llangennech etc if heart of wales line trains are diverted via a new line through Gorseinon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Something else I thought about perhaps a change of the title of this thread to South Wales electrification perhaps since we have gone a bit off topic.

Greenback · 19 May 2012

Rhydgaled said:
Do we know what that service to Fishguard is booked for? Open train times says it is timed for a Pacer!

Eery time I have caught it has been a 150.

Rhydgaled said:
When is the Milford service now the 16:04 goes to Fishguard?

The conductor who had to tell a young lady that the train didn't call at Haverfordwest any more said the next train was about 1800 from Swansea. I took that to eman the former 1809!

tbtc said:
There's never been any limited stop services on the Valley lines, have there?

(I don't remember any anyhow)

I don't remember any limited stop or express services either.

Ivo said:
I can't answer that. However, what I can say is that a limited-stop service pattern with stations so close together may disrupt the faster services. It cannot be denied that the likes of Llanbradach need 4tph less than the likes of Caerphilly, but would such a plan really work? The only other note is that several stations, such as Gilfach Fargoed, have a far mroe limited service than most other stations in the Valleys. But I'm sure you knew that!

I see no-one has mentioned stock of late

anthony263 said:
As for the 16:04 Milford Haven service I believe there is a service from Cardiff at about 16:40 which forms the 17:35 from Swansea to Milford Haven.

Despite the conductor's advice above, a check on a journey planner has revealed services to Milford Haven at 1640 and 1841 from Swansea. I believe that prior to the new timetable the 1640 went to Fishguard and the 1705 from Swansea went to Milford Haven, but this has been reversed now.

anthony263 said:
ideally I would like to see the junction altered so that you can acess the vale from platform 2 as well.

That would be a sensible idea, but I doubt whethe rit would be justified unless there is a service from the west via the Vale. With the decline of Cardiff Airport, that idea is looking less desirable...!

anthony263 said:
Something else I thought of when I was visiting Port Talbot is that it is 4 tracked between Port Talbot Parkway and Margam so perhaps it may be possible for trains to be overtaken there is an additional platform or two are built at Port Talbot parkway including a crossover toallow trains coming from Swansea to be turned back if required.

That is something I was thinking myself the other day when travelling through Port Talbot. I was actually awake and looking around, usually I am asleep in Port Talbot.

anthony263 · 19 May 2012

I remember a year or so ago when the Roberston - Westerleigh tanks were halted at Briton Ferry due to a leak which resulted in the line being closed between Neath & Port Talbot.

I had got onboard the 08:38 Shrewsbury train from Pyle which was held near Margam yard because both platforms at Port Talbot Parkway with the hst that had fromed the 05:27 London Paddington - Swansea service which was being turned back at Port Talbot to form, the 08:48 service to London Paddington.

While the class 175 was shunted back out of the the station into the loop near the Network rail sidings to await its turn to form the 09:13 Manchester service from Port Talbot which after doing so allowed the class 153 to pull into the station.

However as we saw a few weeks ago when the line was closed at Bridgend following the discovery of that body on the line no trains could run between Swansea & Port Talbot parkway which wouldn't be a problem if there was a crosover at the Swansea end of Port Talbot Parkway station.

Greenback · 19 May 2012

I have amended the title of the thread.

Squaddie · 19 May 2012

tbtc said:
Is it worth another rant about how Holyhead - Cardiff has ten times the capacity now that it had ten years ago, whilst important stations on the Valley lines haven't seen anything like the same enhancements?

Three simple reasons for this:

1. Politics
2. Politics
3. Politics

Holyhead to Cardiff may have ten times more capacity on direct services than it had ten years ago, because back then there were hardly any through trains, but if you take each sector of the route individually the additional capacity is much less. Unless you're telling us that there is now ten times more capacity between Holyhead and Chester, between Chester and Shrewsbury and between Shrewsbury and Cardiff?

anthony263 · 19 May 2012

Greenback said:
I have amended the title of the thread.

Thank you Greenback

WelshBluebird · 19 May 2012

In terms of valley lines services not stopping at stations, most do not stop at Trefforest Estate. But afaik that is the only case in normal service (as was mentioned early services often run non stop in times of disruption). Not sure what has been the case in the past.

WelshZ · 19 May 2012

WelshBluebird said:
In terms of valley lines services not stopping at stations, most do not stop at Trefforest Estate. But afaik that is the only case in normal service (as was mentioned early services often run non stop in times of disruption). Not sure what has been the case in the past.

I personally think that trefforest estate should be moved up a bit to be closer to the places where people want to go on the estate, the place in question I am talking about is where the cinema is. This is because I go to the college in rhydfelen and it is being demolished in august/september and the lot of us moved to nanatgarw...which of course presents problems with the local stagecoach service from the valleys to nantgarw because occasionaly when a bus is full (which is often) they would ignore you at a bus stop and I did end being late for many lectures due to this.
So I like quite a few people take the train even but there is the option of free bus travel simply because it is the easiest way to get to college on time without owning a car, and avoid the hellish bottleneck that is Porth-Pontypridd at rush hour. hence my reason for wanting trefforest estate to be moved or if not have a improved service

Gareth Marston · 20 May 2012

LNW-GW Joint said:
Objectively, the Marches route sees about 20 tpd today where it was 13 or so before ATW started.
The number of trains Chester-Holyhead is little different to a decade ago.
Doesn't look like 1000% increase to me, more like 25%.

In this timescale the frequencies in the Valleys have been mostly doubled (with significant investment in longer platforms).

Winter 1991/1992 BR had 19 trains a day Abergavenny-Cardiff today its 29 all 10 extras are in the off peak,
Valley Lines has 20 min frequency Pontypridd/Caerphilly/ Barry/Penarth to Cardiff now its 15 mins.
Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr were only hourly now half hourly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WelshZ said:
I personally think that trefforest estate should be moved up a bit to be closer to the places where people want to go on the estate, the place in question I am talking about is where the cinema is. This is because I go to the college in rhydfelen and it is being demolished in august/september and the lot of us moved to nanatgarw...which of course presents problems with the local stagecoach service from the valleys to nantgarw because occasionaly when a bus is full (which is often) they would ignore you at a bus stop and I did end being late for many lectures due to this.
So I like quite a few people take the train even but there is the option of free bus travel simply because it is the easiest way to get to college on time without owning a car, and avoid the hellish bottleneck that is Porth-Pontypridd at rush hour. hence my reason for wanting trefforest estate to be moved or if not have a improved service

The couple of times I've used it the estate stations been spot on for the businesses I've been visiting.

MarkyT · 21 May 2012

tbtc said:
There's never been any limited stop services on the Valley lines, have there?

(I don't remember any anyhow)

Back in the 1970s/80s at Pontypridd, the through lines to the west of the station were freight only. Well before resignalling and the construction of the additional platform these lines were upgraded to passenger status and I understood the justification at the time was to provide capacity for some additional (non-stopping) Merthyr line trains to bypass the single platform bottleneck. The additional platform on the former Up (northbound) Goods was provided later without need for further signalling changes, and eventually on resignalling the former Down (southbound) Goods was removed, leaving the current layout.

YorkshireBear · 21 May 2012

Just to add to earlier comments to batman i found the part of the Cross City line i was referring to. Redditch to Barnt Green, and Kings Norton to New Street. Both with frequent stops constant changes of speed restriction and sharp curves. Much better for a EMU to handle than a DMU. Allowing greater frequency on the same infrastructure.

Sun! · 22 May 2012

Gareth Marston said:
Valley Lines has 20 min frequency Pontypridd/Caerphilly/ Barry/Penarth to Cardiff now its 15 mins.

Pontypridd went from 20 mins to every 10 minutes.

It amazing the level of service that is provided between Pontypridd and Cardiff on both bus and train. 6 trains and at least 10 buses per hour from the town centre to Cardiff.

Gareth Marston · 22 May 2012

Sun! said:
Pontypridd went from 20 mins to every 10 minutes.

It amazing the level of service that is provided between Pontypridd and Cardiff on both bus and train. 6 trains and at least 10 buses per hour from the town centre to Cardiff.

yes the buses add to the congestion in Cardiff and on the A470 and don't feed into the rail services typical UK sub optimal solution but the shareholders till make money.

tbtc · 22 May 2012

Gareth Marston said:
yes the buses add to the congestion in Cardiff and on the A470 and don't feed into the rail services typical UK sub optimal solution but the shareholders till make money.

Buses only add to congestion if they carry fewer passengers than the number of cars that they take off the road.

And presumably a large number of Pontypridd - Cardiff bus passengers aren't going any further than Cardiff, so the fact that the bus doesn't "feed into" the rail network isn't important?

Greenback · 22 May 2012

Thee is also the fact that the bsues will probably cater for intermediate passengers without easy access to rail services. This is certainly the case on the Llanelli-Swansea buses (also six buses an hour, some pretty slow, others fast). They allow people in the suburbs of both places to get on a bus close to their homes, and access out of town shopping centres at each end of the route.

Not everyone is going from one end of the route to the other.

tbtc · 22 May 2012

Greenback said:
Thee is also the fact that the bsues will probably cater for intermediate passengers without easy access to rail services. This is certainly the case on the Llanelli-Swansea buses (also six buses an hour, some pretty slow, others fast). They allow people in the suburbs of both places to get on a bus close to their homes, and access out of town shopping centres at each end of the route.

Not everyone is going from one end of the route to the other.

Agreed - we need to stop thinking of buses as being the competition for rail

rf_ioliver · 22 May 2012

WelshZ said:
I personally think that trefforest estate should be moved up a bit to be closer to the places where people want to go on the estate, the place in question I am talking about is where the cinema is....

Trouble is that the line doesn't run close enough to Nantgarw.

Personally I always thought the best solution for the Nantgarw development (years ago) was running a service along the old coal line that started from Taffs Well. However how many would have wanted to travel from Cardiff to Nantgarw is another matter. To really answer the above question would be to reopen the line from Pontypridd to Caerphilly via Rhydyfelin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontypridd,_Caerphilly_and_Newport_Railway )

Mind you, I always remeber the plan to build a new Tonteg station at the bottom of Power Station Hill....

Ian

Gareth Marston · 23 May 2012

tbtc said:
Buses only add to congestion if they carry fewer passengers than the number of cars that they take off the road.

And presumably a large number of Pontypridd - Cardiff bus passengers aren't going any further than Cardiff, so the fact that the bus doesn't "feed into" the rail network isn't important?

you'll find the vast majority of them originate from destinations served by Valley Lines and therefore run as competition to the trains, they may serve some intermediate housing areas but interchange is not an option due to ticketing. 4 of the 10 are Express from Merthyr bus station only serving there and Pontypridd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Welsh Government announced £3.5 Billion for infrastructure projects today not a single penny for Valleys or Main Line electrification though the answer to the European funding element is confirmed - ERDF funds to help dual another section of A465 road.

merlodlliw · 23 May 2012

Gareth Marston said:
you'll find the vast majority of them originate from destinations served by Valley Lines and therefore run as competition to the trains, they may serve some intermediate housing areas but interchange is not an option due to ticketing. 4 of the 10 are Express from Merthyr bus station only serving there and Pontypridd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Welsh Government announced £3.5 Billion for infrastructure projects today not a single penny for Valleys or Main Line electrification though the answer to the European funding element is confirmed - ERDF funds to help dual another section of A465 road.

Yes disappointing for the Valleys & main line, for those who would like to see the full version put out by WG, here is the link http://wales.gov.uk/funding/wiip2012/?lang=en
lots of info in the annexes,if you want chapter & verse.
Bob

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