transmanche
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I'm aware of that; but as a passenger, I'd rather that the schedule was changed for the days that extra time is needed (thus letting me get home earlier).
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Should the definition of "late" be more strict?
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AlterEgo
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And how would that appear in the NRTT?
calc7
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bronzeonion
Member
1 minute is abit too tight, but somthing like 2-3 minutes would be sensible enough. Surely anything to make a train more punctual even by a couple of minutes is a good thing?
They could make it even easier by including Kings Cross in that list and making the others request stops.Could be easily done with every stop being set-down only.
transmanche
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Simply mark it as 'This train may be diverted and/or have an extended journey time of up to one hour. Check online for details before travelling.' Job done.
Cliveblackpool
Member
Imo a train is late when people miss their connections to other services that are not held for that train.
I would rather a train timed to depart in the public timetable at 09.45 close its doors at 09.45 even if it means not actually in motion til 09.46.
Some people are too obsessive about time!!
Some drivers are faster than others. Just a minute slower could result in another train getting the priority on a single line, or waiting for another train to cross in front.
Just gives the TOC's more encouragement to pad the timetable.
I would rather a train timed to depart in the public timetable at 09.45 close its doors at 09.45 even if it means not actually in motion til 09.46.
Some people are too obsessive about time!!
Some drivers are faster than others. Just a minute slower could result in another train getting the priority on a single line, or waiting for another train to cross in front.
Just gives the TOC's more encouragement to pad the timetable.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Clive, problem is on rural lines where the next train may be over 2 hours away. We really need to get away from the one size fits all.
I would not expect east coast to hold a train for a service from Grimsby, but it would be good if they did it the other way around considering the line is lightly used and can often recover the late start by Lincoln anyway. The current local train must leave bang on time even if it is shutting the door in the face of people arriving from the connection is not on.
I would not expect east coast to hold a train for a service from Grimsby, but it would be good if they did it the other way around considering the line is lightly used and can often recover the late start by Lincoln anyway. The current local train must leave bang on time even if it is shutting the door in the face of people arriving from the connection is not on.
87015
Established Member
It hasn't got to at all - the DfT will not be knocking on the door for a few trains failing PPM awaiting connections! The TOC (EMT) will have a connectional, or lack of, policy - and if that is the case then EMT have made a commercial decision to put PPM above connecting passengers.
Usually xx45, I believe. Personally, I'd support keeping the 10 minutes, but with an attack on padding, so in this case it would be xx50.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Now that makes more sense, especially around crucial mid-points (such as Doncaster, New Street or Temple Meads).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's the trouble with having one TOC handle the expresses and another the locals, they can be expected to be a bit b***** minded occasionally. 'Twas always so. Some LMS trains would absolutely not wait for a late LNER express, indeed in a few cases the 'connection' was booked to leave one minute earlier, leaving LNER passengers with a 1hr 59min wait. Even under BR, inter-regional and later inter-sector rivalries caused problems.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Agreed
Failed Unit
Established Member
Central trains use to like doing that, but 1 minute before a valid connection. ie only allow 6 minutes between a mainline and a local so you chance it if you feel lucky, but if you miss it bad luck! The normally had some padding between Newark and Lincoln, so it was definately a commercial choice to avoid people using thier services and encourage peoplet to drive to Newark instead.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Not everyone has Internet access. You forget that the people who most rely on an accurate timetable to make connections (the elderly, disabled with assistance etc) won't be able to check online. These are the people who bee reassuring the most.
A key issue here in my opinion is simply the timetabling of services. Some services simply take marginally longer than is allocated in the Passenger Timetable or Working Timetable and when these slight delays mean that other trains have to wait to use a single line or for pathing reasons, this can have a significant effect on punctuality.
transmanche
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"Or call National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50."
You're just trying to create obstacles. Or is York station stuffed full of elderly and disabled people at midnight, just desperate to get to Newcastle. And really, who has a copy of the NRTT these days...?
Failed Unit
Established Member
To be honest I would rather have a train arrive later than timetable rather than earlier that late at night.
Selfish reason, I get picked up and say my train will arrive at 1230 then I need to wait outside the station until the lift arrives. If the train is late the lift is in the car so warm and safe.
Selfish reason, I get picked up and say my train will arrive at 1230 then I need to wait outside the station until the lift arrives. If the train is late the lift is in the car so warm and safe.
WelshBluebird
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I didn't realise it is only the last stop that counts.
So if a service is late (say 15 minutes), and I miss a connection because of that, but because of padding in the timetable the train gets to its end destination on time, that train is not counted as late at all? What a joke.
Wrong. There is a certain amount of leeway for passengers coming off an intercity to a local service on the routes you mentioned.
The Barlow Boy
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Being friends with a Japanese train driver based in Osaka I can tell you that it is. My friend Yoshi has other eye-opening facts too.
How did JNR virtually wipe out SPADS?
Each time the (uniformed and white gloved) driver approaches a signal he points at it and shouts out the signal number. Crazy - but it works.
Now, back to this miserable little island.
If a train is scheduled to depart or arrive at 10.00 and it departs or arrives at 10.01 then it's late. What the mindset has to interpret is how much that minute matters. For the enormously great majority it's no problem but for a tiny wee minature few it'll matter.The occasional bit of late running can be put down to, "well, **** happens" but regular occurances just makes one think why something can't be done apart from stretching the timetable. Late running - as I experienced yesterday on my way to London from Shrewsbury - doesn't get too critical unless the minutes are ticking by on a connection, and it was an unseemly rush to get the 14.50 to Euston off platform 2 at Brummingham off what should have been the 14.26 arrival (arrived at 14.48) on platform 3. Just to compound the felony that train then arrived at Euston about five minutes late after a certain amount of slow running in the Watford area. How critical was that to me? Well it meant I missed the Brighton train at St. Pancras that I was aiming for to connect into the 16.59 off London Bridge so I had to endure the Northern Line to London Bridge to get it from there as I had an appointment to keep. It's only minutes but it was the difference between an easy FCC ride and connection at East Croydon and the hell that is the Northern Line and the hike from the Northern Line platforms to the central side at London Bridge.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I am glad East Midlands trains have changed the policy, it certainly wasn't the case under central trains. The 1924 Newark - Cleethorpes must leave on time, the worse example was the closing the doors just as the mainline service opened its doors. The station staff at Newark said the £)(:ing unit is self dispatch so there is nothing the can do about it!
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Just to compound the felony that train then arrived at Euston about five minutes late after a certain amount of slow running in the Watford area. How critical was that to me? Well it meant I missed the Brighton train at St. Pancras that I was aiming for to connect into the 16.59 off London Bridge so I had to endure the Northern Line to London Bridge to get it from there as I had an appointment to keep. It's only minutes but it was the difference between an easy FCC ride and connection at East Croydon and the hell that is the Northern Line and the hike from the Northern Line platforms to the central side at London Bridge.
The slow running in the Watford area was due to a 20 TSR on the up fast (defective crossing at Watford South Junction) and further restrictions due to trackwork at West London Junction. No train operator can run to time with 2 speed restrictions like this.
The slow running in the Watford area was due to a 20 TSR on the up fast (defective crossing at Watford South Junction) and further restrictions due to trackwork at West London Junction. No train operator can run to time with 2 speed restrictions like this.
warriorofrovac
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1-5 minutes listed as delayed
5-# minutes listed as late.
Simple.
5-# minutes listed as late.
Simple.
Think it applies to a lot of companies where:
Train is delayed.
Pax tell Guard they're going to miss their(last)connection.
Guard phones Control or Station.
Control(s)organise things.
Train gets held.
Turning up and complaining to the Platform Staff that you've missed a connection won't do much. And I can't see any of them staff swearing.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Depends on how well you know the platform staff.
But considering ct needed to provide a taxi for 6 people at Lincoln, after waiting until the 2006 and the gaurd on the mainline train knew and said ct don't hold connections we will never know if he made the call or not. Considering how frequently it happened I believe it wasn't CTs policy. The 1750 London - Leeds service normally had passengers for Lincoln and beyond. The gaurd knows how late it is - I suspect it was more CT couldnt give a toss about passengers and ultimately wanted the line shut. Luckily they are gone, EMT seem to care a lot more.
Platform Staff and Guards aren't mindreaders, they can't predict how many people need to get to Lincoln(or Rasen)unless they are told.
About 6 years ago I was in a Taxi from Peterborough to Birmingham with 4 other passengers, which Central paid for after disruption.
About 6 years ago I was in a Taxi from Peterborough to Birmingham with 4 other passengers, which Central paid for after disruption.
Failed Unit
Established Member
As i said i will never know if the gaurds pass on the message, but I very much doubt that the 1750 ever has 0 passengers trying to make the connection.
I have had many bad experiences with CT and getting left stranded, but that is another topic. I should stop bitching they are gone and EMT are 100% better, even the staff seem happier.
I have had many bad experiences with CT and getting left stranded, but that is another topic. I should stop bitching they are gone and EMT are 100% better, even the staff seem happier.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Point is, you can't just say: 'here's the timetable - this train leaves at 2300 but sometimes 2245 and sometimes 2312, or whenever.
A great deal of people rely on a paper timetable I can assure you, and asking those that do to call a premium rate number or to get themselves on the internet to check when the train feels like leaving this week is creating a barrier to them.
I am pretty sure such a policy would be against the Disabled People's Protection Policy (DPPP) of most TOCs, and possibly open to a legal challenge on discrimination grounds.
People just want a consistent and reliable service, and a fixed timetable does just that - managing the customer's expectations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And how would the financial penalties to TOCs vary?
Many posters seem to forget we're talking about PPM rather than just semantics. If a train timetabled to arrive at 1212 arrives at 1213 then it is late by definition - but the point is where should PPM define a train as being late and 'failing charter'?
If posters propose to tighten PPM targets for TOCs, could they explain where the extra money for paying those financial penalties will come from? Don't say 'the TOC' because we all know that's the wrong answer.
The money will come from you, via the farebox.
transmanche
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Of course you can. And it already happens!
Just check the TPE timetable for the 00:38 departure from Manchester Piccadilly - clearly highlighted in yellow & black with the note 'Please check your journey details before travelling. Service regularly affected by engineering work.'
And lo & behold, visiting TPE's Changes to train times page tells me that between 28 May and 1 June, that train will depart 9 minutes later than advertised.
Now I think you're just making stuff up.
WelshBluebird
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In terms of financial penalties, I think they are a joke considering much of the ToC's income is from the public purse. I have the same opinion about "finding" healthcare trusts. It just seems silly. Although in the case of ToC's, I do think there should be a clause in the franchise that binds the company to keeping within a certain %, or they will lose the franchise (or get some kind of other penalty - not purely financial as a fine).
But by definition, delayed = late.
But by definition, delayed = late.
The Barlow Boy
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I wasn't really complaining, I was just trying to explain what a difference five minutes can make to an otherwise reasonably easy journey.
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