Not so Greater Anglia

Personally, I think that Greater Anglia have done more in 4 months than NXEA have done in 4 Years, there trains are in better condition after years of neglect. Take the Class 170's for example, they were filthy and in poor condition under NXEA but now they are cleaner and in much better condition. Greater anglia seem to have started to refurbish more trains than NXEA had but still there is a long way to go.

The EMU's seem to have started to be refurbished but what about Intercity Services. The MK3 coaches are a shambles, travel on a MK3 With East Coast or Cross Country and they are clean, comfortable and well lit. But Greater Anglia's Mk3's are dirty and uncomfortable. If the GEML and the East Anglian region on the whole are to keep getting bypassed from investment then we should make do, start keeping the trains clean and comfortable not only on long distance services but on rural services as well. If Greater Anglia are really diffrent to NXEA then they should start making trains and stations more Passenger friendly.

The Stations on rural networks are also in need of some TLC, Greater Anglia could make a start with new departure boards and making them a bit more presentable. This is also the same for stations along the GEML, we could do with new departure boards and updated concourses. But this needs invesment on the whole network, but that is unlikely because dft are to busy putting ticket prices up over the whole network and yet not putting any investment back into this region

We shall just have to hope that the next Franchise will be focused on passenger comfort and service and that we will get some investment in services in East Anglia.

oliMw said:

Personally, I think that Greater Anglia have done more in 4 months than NXEA have done in 4 Years, there trains are in better condition after years of neglect. Take the Class 170's for example, they were filthy and in poor condition under NXEA but now they are cleaner and in much better condition. Greater anglia seem to have started to refurbish more trains than NXEA had but still there is a long way to go.

The EMU's seem to have started to be refurbished but what about Intercity Services. The MK3 coaches are a shambles, travel on a MK3 With East Coast or Cross Country and they are clean, comfortable and well lit. But Greater Anglia's Mk3's are dirty and uncomfortable. If the GEML and the East Anglian region on the whole are to keep getting bypassed from investment then we should make do, start keeping the trains clean and comfortable not only on long distance services but on rural services as well. If Greater Anglia are really diffrent to NXEA then they should start making trains and stations more Passenger friendly.

The Stations on rural networks are also in need of some TLC, Greater Anglia could make a start with new departure boards and making them a bit more presentable. This is also the same for stations along the GEML, we could do with new departure boards and updated concourses. But this needs invesment on the whole network, but that is unlikely because dft are to busy putting ticket prices up over the whole network and yet not putting any investment back into this region

We shall just have to hope that the next Franchise will be focused on passenger comfort and service and that we will get some investment in services in East Anglia.

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As previous posts have said no company in their right mind would spend millions on investment on infrastructure for 29 months only for someone else to benefit from it.

GA have started in the right way. That is ensuring that there are more revenue staff and ensuring that those who dodge paying fares and think that they are above the law, which can equal millions of pounds, are actually paying to travel.

If GA won the new contract then I would pretty much guess that you will see improvements in stations and new rolling stock as the spring clean of many carriages to date has already demonstrated. But that means the government has got to give long franchises and 15 years is pretty long for companies to find it worthwhile to invest millions.

So the jury will be out for another 25 months in terms of investment etc. Don't expect too much but the status quo.

However watch out and be very aware for NXEA who will do anything they can to get the franchise back. Then you really will know what cr*p is and will be sorry when the shambles brigade are back at the helm. Then I'm afraid the network is really screwed.

I like to think that the reason why NXG made the decision to vinyl the 357s on c2c to white is not to reflect the house colors of the parent company but more due to the fact that they know they'll be loosing the franchise. Just like they did with NXEA - rebrand everything to white in preparation for their successor.

Less than a year to go whether we see the demise of NXG in the railway sector with the expiry of the last and final Essex Thameside franchise. I know for a lot of people the countdown is just as tense as the final days of the Third Reich. Roll on 26 May 2013!!!

NXG are a strange bunch - they can operate one of the worst TOCs in the country, whilst just next door they can operate one of the best. Go figure...

xplo42 said:

I like to think that the reason why NXG made the decision to vinyl the 357s on c2c to white is not to reflect the house colors of the parent company but more due to the fact that they know they'll be loosing the franchise. Just like they did with NXEA - rebrand everything to white in preparation for their successor.

Less than a year to go whether we see the demise of NXG in the railway sector with the expiry of the last and final Essex Thameside franchise. I know for a lot of people the countdown is just as tense as the final days of the Third Reich. Roll on 26 May 2013!!!

NXG are a strange bunch - they can operate one of the worst TOCs in the country, whilst just next door they can operate one of the best. Go figure...

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As much as I would like to believe that, c2c changed their livery to NX white because the blue vinyls had been improperly applied on some cases and had water bubbles stuck under them that were causing the actual body of the train to corrode, so NX removed all vinyls and repainted the trains as opposed to revinyling them.

NX are a very strange bunch indeed. c2c are very good, but NXEA and NXEC are synonyms for "nightmare" amongst the railway community now. From 2008 and the company-wide rebrand everything went so far downhill that it actually ended up in hell, but c2c escaped this. I am in 2 minds about c2c retaining the franchise. They have been very good and normally they would deserve to keep it, but NX group have committed atrocities against the railways that should not go unpunished. They should never have been allowed to rebid. If NX get FGW's franchise I will cry. I will actually cry. I hope c2c do not retain because NX railways should be wiped from the face of the earth. I just hope the new operator gives the trains a better livery than white/blue.

Adam

oliMw said:

The Stations on rural networks are also in need of some TLC, Greater Anglia could make a start with new departure boards and making them a bit more presentable.

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While TOCs seem to make a big song and dance about installing new screens, I think they're all obtained and installed by Network Rail. Besides a TOC doing basic painting and maintenance of the station they're operating on behalf of NR, I think all the other stuff is going to be part of NR's own station upgrading plans/schedules.

oliMw said:

The MK3 coaches are a shambles, travel on a MK3 With East Coast or Cross Country and they are clean, comfortable and well lit. But Greater Anglia's Mk3's are dirty and uncomfortable.

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Don't think the blue, brown and cream decor does the Mk3s much favour, has a 1980s feel about it. Compared to EMT's Mk3s which also retain the original seating the difference is noticeable http://www.flickr.com/photos/ardcoasters/6973908799/

I think realistically if you're ever going to sort out Anglia you need to just throw a serious amount of cash at it, there's no way you can radically change things with the way it is now. First of all you wanna four-track and re-signal Shenfield-Colchester and also resignal Liverpool Street to Shenfield to get the best out of the 4 track formation there as there isn't enough room for 6 tracks all the way into London. But yeah with the four-tracking, apart from dropping down to 2 through the viaduct at Chelmsford and possibly reinstating the middle track to allow services to overtake bi-directionally you want four track all the way to Colchester, and you'll need to re-build Marks Tey by moving the Sudbury line platform over to allow an extra pair of tracks and Platforms through, and you'd need to rebuild Colchester to have the current Platforms 3 and 4 side by side instead of trains from 4 running through Platform 3 as you do now.

That'll sort out capacity problems and allow faster services and more freight through as well as overtaking opportunities. To take the pressure off Ilford you'd ideally wanna build a new depot somewhere around Colchester or Manningtree for the 321's and one up the West Anglia to allow you to move the 317's and 379's away and just have Ilford as a CrossRail depot and Anglian stabling point. You wanna re-signal the West Anglian as well to allow more capacity. Electrification of Peterborough/Cambridge-Norwich/Ipswich, Norwich-Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth /Sheringham, Ipswich-Lowestoft/Felixstowe and Marks Tey-Sudbury will allow you to displace the diesel fleet and allow freight to be electrically hauled to Felixstowe - perhaps recall the 9 317/7's back in place of the 3-car 170/2's and order 16 3-car 380's to displace the 16 314's to Norwich to take over from the 9 156's, 5 153's and 4 2-car 170's.

And then with regards to rolling stock send each and every 317+321 to a works and having them strip them down each coach back to the bare metal sort out any corrosion, new lighting, new panelling, new seats possibly change it to 2+2 for more standing space, new carpeting/flooring, strip back the traction motors and overhaul them, overhaul the bogies, fit DDA toilets, just literally make them into new units. I'd be in favour of doing the same to the Mark 3's and giving the 90's heavy overhauls as well as they have good acceleration for the route instead of new trains. As for stock, the new LM order will free up the 7 321's as they only have 3 diagrams as it stands to Anglia, and cascade the 21 360's along with the 5 HEX 360's freed up by CrossRail to FCC to displace the 13 321's and 12 317's, the FCC and LM sets displacing the 360's and the 12 317's along with a small batch of 5 new 379's which will cascade 5 more 317's to displace the 315's completely from West Anglia to be retired or move to the Valley Lines or up North.

Sorry for the essay guys, but you see what I mean, if you wanna sort out everything and have fresh comfortable trains, more capacity, better rural line services, more punctual services and faster services, you need to throw a serious amount of money and I just don't think we can expect that any time soon! Next franchise hopefully we'll see a few improvements such as refurbished 317's/321's/Mark 3's, but the capacity and infrastructure problems need attention also, although fair play to Network Rail for installing the new wiring!

NXEA! said:

And then with regards to rolling stock send each and every 317+321 to a works and having them strip them down each coach back to the bare metal sort out any corrosion, new lighting, new panelling, new seats possibly change it to 2+2 for more standing space, new carpeting/flooring, strip back the traction motors and overhaul them, overhaul the bogies, fit DDA toilets, just literally make them into new units.

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This. I wonder if it would be possible to a little further, and rebuild all their cabs to be identical- essentially unifying the fleet into a single mega-class? A bit more of a merry-go-round, and you'd potentially be able to bring the Northern 321/322 fleet into the programme too.

NXEA! said:

..cascade the 21 360's along with the 5 HEX 360's freed up by CrossRail to FCC to displace the 13 321's and 12 317's..

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I am sure trading air-conditioned stock in for 30 year old ex BR stock would go down well.
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jopsuk said:

I wonder if it would be possible to a little further, and rebuild all their cabs to be identical- essentially unifying the fleet into a single mega-class?

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A lot of expense for little benefit.

David10 said:

I am sure trading air-conditioned stock in for 30 year old ex BR stock would go down well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A lot of expense for little benefit.

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Yes but I'm sure GN passengers would be happy though,

That said, if this was considered in 2003/2004 then I would have agreed with it but as the GN and TL is eventually getting brand new trains anyway, we might as well wait.....

I'm a regular traveller with GA between Shenfield - Liverpool Street, however I took a trip last Saturday to Cambridge via different routes and here's what I thought:

I started off with the 11:03 Shenfield - Colchester service, formed of an 8 car 360. As others have commented these units are starting to show wear and tear. For example many of the seats are threadbare and to be honest quite filthy. The carpets and panels are also grubby, the consolation is the quick acceleration means and fairly comfortable ride.

Next up was the 11:47 Colchester - Ipswich. This actually arrived a few minutes early and I went to board the train. Unfortunately the coach I selected seemed to be 'dead' as the door had a notice displaying out of use signs. I went through into another carriage and noticed the 'dead' coach had no internal lights either. Whilst I appreciate failures can happen surely this shouldn't be allowed to continue in service, especially into the evening? Either way I visited the cafe bar for some food and found a seat.

Arrival at Ipswich was on time and here I changed onto the 12:19 to Cambridge. To my surprise this was formed of a 3 car 170! The interiors have been improved as others have mentioned and credit to GA where it is due these do seem a lot more pleasant now. Train was fairly well loaded but quite full after leaving Newmarket, arrival into Cambridge was on time.

Then onto the last train and by far the worst of the day. The 14:04 to Liverpool Street, formed of 2 x 317's. I boarded the front set, which I believe was a /8 series. The interior was filthy, seats torn, lights not working and generally in appalling state. Compared to the units on the 'Great Eastern' side this particular example was a disgrace. How GA feel it acceptable to run these in passenger service is beyond me.

Overall I think GA have made improvements, however they still have a long way to go. For example the gateline staff at Liverpool Street need more training in customer service. To add to this, a fully non folding bike was allowed onto the 18:20 Liverpool Street - Harwich International last Friday night. Well done GA allowing this through onto an already overcrowded service!

I think GA's deep clean program is akin to polishing a turd. Reality is that under the ground in dirt there is a train that really needs refurbishing. I oftern wonder how much different things may have turned out had First won the franchise, the difference between the FGW and NXEA was chalk and cheese. And of course they would probably have been granted the extension until 2014.

Unfortunately the only units to be refurbished in the current franchise are the ex Silverlink 321s.

I know the original reason for the short franchise was so the government could formulate its franchising strategy, but given that this is now in place, would have been better to extend NXEA by 6-12 months. Capital investment could have started in 2013 rather than 2015 as is now to be the case.

jopsuk said:

This. I wonder if it would be possible to a little further, and rebuild all their cabs to be identical- essentially unifying the fleet into a single mega-class? A bit more of a merry-go-round, and you'd potentially be able to bring the Northern 321/322 fleet into the programme too.

Click to expand...

Yeah, ideally you'd be able to persuade HEX to order some new sets such as 380's and send the 332's up to Leeds to cascade the 321/322's down to Anglia and also electrify the Harrogate line to mop up the extra 332's made available. As for David10's comment, I don't see the problem in replacing 360's with 321's? The 360's themselves are 10 years old and in need of a refresh as it stands, if the 321's were like brand new except for an unfortunate lack of air conditioning would it really be that much of a step down? Personally I think its an even trade off as you're getting rebuilt sturdy units which are like new which replace units which although are newer are a little tatty.
Its also arguable that the 360's superior acceleration would be better suited to the ECML where fast Cambridge/Kings Lynn services have to keep out of the way of expresses, and it also presents the opportunity to modify them to 110mph as per the LM 350/1's. Anglia workings only have to contend with faster Norwich services. Just my thoughts.

NXEA! said:

I don't see the problem in replacing 360's with 321's? The 360's themselves are 10 years old and in need of a refresh as it stands, if the 321's were like brand new except for an unfortunate lack of air conditioning would it really be that much of a step down?

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Try telling that to Mr Joe Public on one of the 3 days each year when the temperature gets above 25 degrees. Its a personal choice, but I consider a 360 much more comfortable than a 321. Take your point on faster acceleration of the 360s being more useful on the ECML.

David10 said:

I oftern wonder how much different things may have turned out had First won the franchise, the difference between the FGW and NXEA was chalk and cheese.

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If you're going along those lines, imagine how it would have been if GB Rail had won the franchise (and First hadn't bought them to get themselves back in the running after not being named in the final three - of course we also wouldn't have First Hull Trains or 66s running around in barbie livery either if that happened).

jonmorris0844 said:

While TOCs seem to make a big song and dance about installing new screens, I think they're all obtained and installed by Network Rail. Besides a TOC doing basic painting and maintenance of the station they're operating on behalf of NR, I think all the other stuff is going to be part of NR's own station upgrading plans/schedules.

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Not true. Only the Major Stations (in this case Liverpool Street) are NR. The ones on the old GE are those installed by First, with the odd replacement as failed. There has been a long-standing dispute between TOCs and NR as to who should pick up the cost, but that is all moot under the new franchise terms - it's all down to the TOC.

I was on one of the refurbished units today, it really is a cheap and cheerful refurb. One that will allow the units to keep limping along.

Oh and unless they have replaced the ceilings, I really had not remembered them as that colour, they must have been absolutely filthy.

HH said:

Not true. Only the Major Stations (in this case Liverpool Street) are NR. The ones on the old GE are those installed by First, with the odd replacement as failed. There has been a long-standing dispute between TOCs and NR as to who should pick up the cost, but that is all moot under the new franchise terms - it's all down to the TOC.

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Fair enough if the franchise terms require the TOC to pay, but I think you'll find the stations are all still Network Rail owned (if not actually managed, like the main stations).

I do think it's silly for TOCs to brand stations though, then have to remove the branding (possibly repainting seats, lamp posts etc) when they lose the franchise.

Just as we keep the BR logo for branding the railway, I also think that we should have standard colours, signs and branding at stations - whoever actually operates them.

For things like CCTV, bike stands, new ticket machines, new departure boards/screens, Network Rail should manage them. Perhaps then get a TOC to contribute towards it, based on the length of the franchise.

Seems a bit of a mess as it stands. In the case of FCC, they got 'new' screens installed by Network Rail at some stations (think Farringdon and Potters Bar) that were hand-me-downs. They were awful. NR finally replaced the ones at both, which is why I always assumed FCC didn't get any real say.

NR have enough to deal with, why should they have to spend out more money on things that are (and should be) really down to the TOCs?

Under the terms that existed from the start of privatisation the TOCs were responsible for repairs & maintenance and NR for renewals. You can understand why this led to dispute in some areas.

The majority of new franchises (certainly those of 15 years) will have stations let on a 99-year fully repairing lease, so TOCs will be responsible for everything. If this had been in from the start the majority of stations would look better today, however some of the major stations might be less impressive - NR (and RT before them) used general station sbudget on these big projects.

Couple of presentations I found by Abellio, one to London Travel Watch
(see what google turns up for "abellio greater anglia presentation to london travel watch")

and one to some MPs
(see http://www.westangliaroutes.org.uk/index/6/documents.html)

The note of the MPs meeting includes the following:

"Ruud Haket, Managing Director of Abellio Ltd, the company running the short term (29 months from Feb 2012) Greater Anglia franchise, gave a presentation on their plans:
• New branding kept to a minimum to reduce cost and allow quick transfer
• 100 additional revenue protection staff as well as improved staff training and equipment
• Better service information at Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters and Walthamstow and new kiosks at Bishops Stortford and Cambridge
• Ticket offices retained and complemented by new forms of ticketing including via mobile phones and print at home
• Oyster PAYG extended to Broxbourne and the Hertford East branch
• Existing fleet better utilised which means some units are no longer required but there is no reduction in service levels
• Refresh of all stations including a deep clean at 23 London stations which has been sponsored by TfL
• Additional cycle and car parking and a trial of a virtual station at Saffron Walden
• Better engagement with user groups and support for partnerships
• Close working with Stansted Airport Ltd to make sure the Stansted Express remains a premium product."


Anyone know what is meant by "trial of a virtual station at Saffron Walden"?

And have the new kiosks at Bishops Stortford and Cambridge started operating? - I have not noticed them

The London Travel Watch presentation refers to lots of "plans" many with no timetable to implementation eg re Stansted Express first class improvements. Anyone got any info on which of these things will happen when?

Also the presentation as well as the GA passenger's charter leaflet refers to new Customer Panels and a new Stakeholder Panel. Have these been established yet or actually had any meetings? Anyone know who is on them?

many thanks for any info

47421 said:

Couple of presentations I found by Abellio, one to London Travel Watch
(see what google turns up for "abellio greater anglia presentation to london travel watch")

and one to some MPs
(see http://www.westangliaroutes.org.uk/index/6/documents.html)

The note of the MPs meeting includes the following:

"Ruud Haket, Managing Director of Abellio Ltd, the company running the short term (29 months from Feb 2012) Greater Anglia franchise, gave a presentation on their plans:
• New branding kept to a minimum to reduce cost and allow quick transfer
• 100 additional revenue protection staff as well as improved staff training and equipment
• Better service information at Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters and Walthamstow and new kiosks at Bishops Stortford and Cambridge
• Ticket offices retained and complemented by new forms of ticketing including via mobile phones and print at home
• Oyster PAYG extended to Broxbourne and the Hertford East branch
• Existing fleet better utilised which means some units are no longer required but there is no reduction in service levels
• Refresh of all stations including a deep clean at 23 London stations which has been sponsored by TfL
• Additional cycle and car parking and a trial of a virtual station at Saffron Walden
• Better engagement with user groups and support for partnerships
• Close working with Stansted Airport Ltd to make sure the Stansted Express remains a premium product."


Anyone know what is meant by "trial of a virtual station at Saffron Walden"?

And have the new kiosks at Bishops Stortford and Cambridge started operating? - I have not noticed them

The London Travel Watch presentation refers to lots of "plans" many with no timetable to implementation eg re Stansted Express first class improvements. Anyone got any info on which of these things will happen when?

Also the presentation as well as the GA passenger's charter leaflet refers to new Customer Panels and a new Stakeholder Panel. Have these been established yet or actually had any meetings? Anyone know who is on them?

many thanks for any info

Click to expand...

I am still yet to see their plans for a 500 space 'cycle hub' at Chelmsford, no one at GA has been bothered to get back to me to advise.

HH said:

Under the terms that existed from the start of privatisation the TOCs were responsible for repairs & maintenance and NR for renewals. You can understand why this led to dispute in some areas.

The majority of new franchises (certainly those of 15 years) will have stations let on a 99-year fully repairing lease, so TOCs will be responsible for everything. If this had been in from the start the majority of stations would look better today, however some of the major stations might be less impressive - NR (and RT before them) used general station sbudget on these big projects.

Click to expand...

so TOCs will be reponsible for the whole station and not Network Rail?

Virtual station Saffron Walden = dedicated bus service link

ml said:

so TOCs will be reponsible for the whole station and not Network Rail?

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That is correct. Currently West Coast is, Great Western isn't (no idea why), Greater Anglia is, Thameslink they haven't made up their minds! Well it is the DfT. No use expecting logic.

By the way I was speaking to a Rail User Group man on the West Anglia route today and he had some very nice things to say about Abellio.
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Sleepy said:

Virtual station Saffron Walden = dedicated bus service link

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That's good. My mother used to live there in the days when I was an impecunious student, and the bus service was awful, I usually had to hitch.
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Pugwash said:

I am still yet to see their plans for a 500 space 'cycle hub' at Chelmsford, no one at GA has been bothered to get back to me to advise.

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They have built them at Northern Stations, so there is no reason to expect that they won't at GA if they've promised. Here's a linky to the fine one at Leeds.

jonmorris0844 said:

I do think it's silly for TOCs to brand stations though, then have to remove the branding (possibly repainting seats, lamp posts etc) when they lose the franchise.

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Funny to see when things come full circle though. I was in Liverpool Street on Sunday afternoon and couldn't help noticing how the Network South East white, red and blue panelling at the bottom of all the pillars seemed to perfectly match the colours in the new Greater Anglia logos on the adjacent trains.

Sleepy said:

Virtual station Saffron Walden = dedicated bus service link

Click to expand...

to expand on this, does that mean creating a station code and having a through ticket as well?

On a separate note, is our little welsh friend still at Norwich, or has it gone now?

Adam

Was Still there on Friday

Just got back after a few weeks away to find I can "choose from tea, coffee, water or orange juice as well as savoury snacks and biscuits" in 1st Class.

Part of the franchise promise AFAIK.