"Fewer than 70% of trains on time"

WestCoast · 11 Jul 2012

Schnellzug said:
Direct services need to be avoided?
I, again, would argue just the opposite. It may be simpler and easier for the Train operators to have every train running in exactly the same pattern all day every day, but once again it seems to reduce user-friendliness from the passenger's point of view.

No, direct services on significant passenger flows are highly beneficial and attractive, but if you're running, hypothetically, open access DEMUs from Barrow-in-Furness to London Euston* taking up valuable EMU paths for the sake of the last few stops, you need to ask whether a well-timed and near platform connection at Lancaster would be in the best interests of the entire operation and the majority of travellers. That's just my opinion on the matter.

*proposed OA route.

RailUK Forums

tbtc · 11 Jul 2012

Schnellzug said:
Direct services need to be avoided?
I, again, would argue just the opposite. It may be simpler and easier for the Train operators to have every train running in exactly the same pattern all day every day, but once again it seems to reduce user-friendliness from the passenger's point of view.

The obsession with direct trains leads to complicated service patterns, conflicting movements and inefficient use of stock.

Beter to have reliable services on each line with robust reliable connections than trying to connect everywhere to everywhere else. Look at how a reliable "core" service like on XC has boosted passenger numbers significantly.

Failed Unit · 11 Jul 2012

Ironically it is poor reliabilty of connections that drives the demand for direct trains.

However i am sure Lincoln would trade their single train per day if the x30 connected at Newark every hour with a 10 minute connection with a train to Grimsby. Yes people don't want to haul bags over the footbridge, but then do the want to wait until 1900!

p123 · 11 Jul 2012

Maybe I've missed the point a little, but I don't understand why this is a negative story?

70% of trains arrive within 59 minutes of their scheduled time. So, basically in a time period of three weeks every single train from London to Aberdeen arrives at exactly the minute predicted? And then around once every three weeks it may be a few seconds late.

Wow, impressive.

DavidBusDriver · 12 Jul 2012

A little bit simplistic of an argument perhaps, but yes I don't think the story should be coming across as negative as it is, in this country we run some of the highest intensity services in the world, particularly mostly on more traditional (and to me, safer, but that is for another topic) signalling systems.

As always comes out of these stories though, the railway is expected to achieve perfection, whereas other modes get rather more leeway.

O L Leigh · 12 Jul 2012

As a train driver I can report that my biggest cause for delay is...

...passengers.

O L Leigh

Ferret · 12 Jul 2012

Picking up on the point about bus punctuality, yes - they are subject to all the many factors I outlined in my point about car journeys.

Moving on, how does it compare with airline punctuality? They can be affected by direction and speed of wind, security issues, passengers late boarding (no sniggering O L Leigh!), ATC flow restrictions.

So, isn't it time that we just accepted that any form of transport is wide open to the risk of delays, and dealt with that fact like adults, instead of having the BBC writing drivel like this, thus getting the hard of thinking into a hysterical frenzy every time their train is 3 minutes late?!

Metroland · 12 Jul 2012

At the very least there should be some fair comparison. Much of the data is already complied by ATOC, CAA, the Highways agency and TFL, the bus companies drag their feet more.

Maybe this is one for the DFT. I'd like to see 6 monthly publication of stats for all modes in one easy to read document. Maybe:

-Punctuality for buses, trains, trams etc in different cities.
-Punctuality for each transport company
-An overall comparison between different modes on key routes where there is a lot of competition such as London-Edinburgh.
-Traffic delay hotspots and minutes lost in delay on key routes
-Punctuality for key areas: Urban buses, rural buses, regional rail, intercity rail, domestic flights.
-Also actual punctuality and punctuality with 'on time' allowances.

When we have all that data, we can have a serious informed discussion.

Oswyntail · 12 Jul 2012

Ferret said:
....
So, isn't it time that we just accepted that any form of transport is wide open to the risk of delays, and dealt with that fact like adults, ...

As others have said, this should be a positive story - rail is 9or should be) more reliable and predictable than other modes, so that should be the publicity angle.

HSTEd · 12 Jul 2012

And now...

How long before all journey times mysteriously increase by five minutes?

LE Greys · 12 Jul 2012

I've heard plenty of calls for an 'average delay minutes' system in the past, but I wonder how that would work. After all, the average delay of the Stourbridge shuttle is likely to be considerably less than of an Aberdeen-Penzance route, because there are more possibe causes of delay on longer routes. Average percentage delay per route is an option, one I'd like to see applied to airlines as well.

If I'm going to add to the 'padding' arguement, I'd certainly like to get to my destination more quickly in many cases, but not at the expense of not knowing when I'm going to get there. I reckon that the timetable has erred on the side of caution at the moment, but it's not completely ridiculous yet. For instance, I've noted that a 90mph Turbo can keep up on 125mph schedules on the Oxford Flyer. Why? Because Turbos sometimes stand in for faster stock. IMO, that's the problem rather than the padding.

Still, 70% on time certainly is a good figure with such tight margins.

Ferret · 12 Jul 2012

Oswyntail said:
As others have said, this should be a positive story - rail is 9or should be) more reliable and predictable than other modes, so that should be the publicity angle.

I agree entirely. Not that the railway should be happy with that, but still, it's not bad! Alas the train I've just been working is 20 late because some idiot drove his lorry into a bridge *facepalm*! If we're talking about the 'true performance of railway companies', what the hell are we supposed to do about that?! I favour the nuclear option here - chop off the hands of such miscreants so that they are unable to make the same mistake again and as a warning to other lorry drivers who may be similarly daft!*

*not a serious suggestion!

tbtc · 12 Jul 2012

O L Leigh said:
As a train driver I can report that my biggest cause for delay is...

...passengers.

O L Leigh

It'd be interesting to see how efficient the railway would be if it could have one day without the "self loading baggage" - we plead with the Guard to hold the doors for us, then complain when trains are delayed...

LE Greys said:
I've heard plenty of calls for an 'average delay minutes' system in the past, but I wonder how that would work. After all, the average delay of the Stourbridge shuttle is likely to be considerably less than of an Aberdeen-Penzance route, because there are more possibe causes of delay on longer routes. Average percentage delay per route is an option, one I'd like to see applied to airlines as well

It's a difficult one. Average delays on flights matter because people are on the flight from take off to landing. Average delays on a route like XC's Plymouth - Edinburgh one aren't very important for somoene commuting from Sheffield to Leeds though - as the arrival in Edinburgh may bear no corrolation to any delay in Yorkshire - I'm not sure how best to calculate train punctuality to give a meaningful stat.

MKB · 12 Jul 2012

I was pleasantly surprised by the figure of 70%.

In my view, the more transparency there is with information, the better.

I'd echo the call for average delays to be available for each train service at each station, just like you can get with flights at flightstats.com. This would be really useful when planning connections.

At the moment, when arrival time is critical, you have to allow loads of contingency time when choosing which trains services to use, particularly when connections are involved. Knowing that certain services are nearly always on time would allow careful pruning of the contingency time you build in without increasing the level of risk you're prepared to accept.

calc7 · 12 Jul 2012

tbtc said:
The obsession with direct trains leads to complicated service patterns, conflicting movements and inefficient use of stock.

Beter to have reliable services on each line with robust reliable connections than trying to connect everywhere to everywhere else. Look at how a reliable "core" service like on XC has boosted passenger numbers significantly.

A very refreshing post to read.

455driver · 12 Jul 2012

So thats any trains being held to connect with a late runner out the window then!

I am sure the pax will really appreciate watching their connection leaving "on time" as their (5 minute) late mainliner rolls along the platform.

Its all very well trying to get all/ most trains on time but if that means that passengers will miss a connecting train (and potentially have an hour to wait for the next train) what is the point, surely its more important to have "passengers arriving on time".
I think that passengers would appreciate a 5 minute late train with them on it more than an on time train with them left on the platform!

Greenback · 12 Jul 2012

455driver said:
So thats any trains being held to connect with a late runner out the window then!

I am sure the pax will really appreciate watching their connection leaving "on time" as their (5 minute) late mainliner rolls along the platform.

Its all very well trying to get all/ most trains on time but if that means that passengers will miss a connecting train (and potentially have an hour to wait for the next train) what is the point, surely its more important to have "passengers arriving on time".
I think that passengers would appreciate a 5 minute late train with them on it more than an on time train with them left on the platform!

That's where things get complicated, though. Some passengers on the train that then departs 5 mins late may have their own conenctions to make. The train may get further delayed by mssing its path.

If those connections are then held as well, then eventually, the knock on effect will mean that more and more trains get later and later, until you may as well throw the timetable out of the window altogether!

A-driver · 12 Jul 2012

I agree that the biggest cause of delays is passengers. It's a no win situation. Try dispatching yourself from highbury and islington heading into moorgate in the morning peak. No point even trying to close doors as everyone holds them open. I have sat there for up to 3 minutes before now. You then get other stations where you close the doors 30secs to a minute late just as someone legs it onto the platform. You ignore them and carry on to take power and get abuse hurled at you for not re-opening the doors. Where as if you are kind and re-open for them then you start running late and other passengers get annoyed (if it realistically takes 30secs to re-open and close doors for 1 person then do it at more than one station and the delay really starts to build up. Then there are the numerous stations where everyone leaves the service from the same door as its next to the platform exit. That can cost a few mins to, although fun to watch on the monitors, I always think its like a clown car the amount of people who pile out of the 1 door.

I have seen numerous passengers complaining on twitter that their train is always 2 or 3 mins late and the driver never apologises but what can you say? 'Sorry we are late, this is due to waiting or people getting on off?!' Certainly dosnt help that most timetables allow the same amount of station dwelling time in the peak as they do off peak.

I don't think anyone should ever leave less than 5 mins for a connection as I think it now needs to be accepted that most services will loose a minute or 2 for no particular reason. All it takes is heavy passenger flow, dodgy traction motor affecting acceleration, weak brakes, slightly slippy rails slowing acceleration, short speed restriction, pass com activation etc.

I was moaned at a few weeks ago as the kings Lynn train I worked to Cambridge was 3 mins late in as i was slowed at Hitchin by a late running up east coast so several people missed the Norwich 'connection'. It was due to leave 2 mins after I was due to arrive-I would never plan a journey with a 2 min connection!

HSTEd · 13 Jul 2012

My father does -2 min connections at Doncaster apparently....

LE Greys · 13 Jul 2012

A-driver said:
I agree that the biggest cause of delays is passengers. It's a no win situation. Try dispatching yourself from highbury and islington heading into moorgate in the morning peak. No point even trying to close doors as everyone holds them open. I have sat there for up to 3 minutes before now. You then get other stations where you close the doors 30secs to a minute late just as someone legs it onto the platform. You ignore them and carry on to take power and get abuse hurled at you for not re-opening the doors. Where as if you are kind and re-open for them then you start running late and other passengers get annoyed (if it realistically takes 30secs to re-open and close doors for 1 person then do it at more than one station and the delay really starts to build up. Then there are the numerous stations where everyone leaves the service from the same door as its next to the platform exit. That can cost a few mins to, although fun to watch on the monitors, I always think its like a clown car the amount of people who pile out of the 1 door.

I have seen numerous passengers complaining on twitter that their train is always 2 or 3 mins late and the driver never apologises but what can you say? 'Sorry we are late, this is due to waiting or people getting on off?!' Certainly dosnt help that most timetables allow the same amount of station dwelling time in the peak as they do off peak.

I don't think anyone should ever leave less than 5 mins for a connection as I think it now needs to be accepted that most services will loose a minute or 2 for no particular reason. All it takes is heavy passenger flow, dodgy traction motor affecting acceleration, weak brakes, slightly slippy rails slowing acceleration, short speed restriction, pass com activation etc.

I was moaned at a few weeks ago as the kings Lynn train I worked to Cambridge was 3 mins late in as i was slowed at Hitchin by a late running up east coast so several people missed the Norwich 'connection'. It was due to leave 2 mins after I was due to arrive-I would never plan a journey with a 2 min connection!

You're quite right, you can't please everybody. By the way, I've made that connection a few times, but having boarded the semi-fast from Baldock (think it's actually -2) and hardly ever believed my luck. If you were driving, I'm sorry I didn't have time to say thanks.

455driver · 13 Jul 2012

Greenback said:
That's where things get complicated, though. Some passengers on the train that then departs 5 mins late may have their own conenctions to make. The train may get further delayed by mssing its path.

If those connections are then held as well, then eventually, the knock on effect will mean that more and more trains get later and later, until you may as well throw the timetable out of the window altogether!

I was refering to connections onto branchlines and things like that not complicated situations like BHM (the correct code for Birmingham New Street

) etc, if the pax want the trains "on time" then they can have them "on time" whether the pax are on them or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A-driver said:
I agree that the biggest cause of delays is passengers.

Nail hit squarely on head.

A-driver said:
I have seen numerous passengers complaining on twitter that their train is always 2 or 3 mins late and the driver never apologises but what can you say? 'Sorry we are late, this is due to waiting or people getting on off?!' Certainly dosnt help that most timetables allow the same amount of station dwelling time in the peak as they do off peak.

At several (12 coach stations) I stop my 8 coach train at different places on the platform to stop everyone queueing up out the 1 door, across the platform to the exit, they all then queue back onto the train preventing the train moving.
By stopping at the wrong place it gives them room to get off and queue along the platform instead of on the train, we get going and everybody else gets home earlier.

A bloke asked why I did it so I told him and advised that when I am driving the peak hour ones to try a different door, a few weeks later and he is the first 1 out of the station with a thumbs up and a "cheers drive", made me smile. :lol:

Failed Unit · 13 Jul 2012

HSTEd said:
My father does -2 min connections at Doncaster apparently....

I do at Edinburgh as well, if you are on the 1130 London - Edinburgh which arrives on platform 19 at 1617, you can very often get the 1615 Edinburgh - Glasgow service. Nice arrival 30 minutes earlier than expected at home.

6Gman · 13 Jul 2012

455driver said:
So thats any trains being held to connect with a late runner out the window then!

I am sure the pax will really appreciate watching their connection leaving "on time" as their (5 minute) late mainliner rolls along the platform.

But surely that's already the policy!

[Certainly happens at Chester]

455driver · 14 Jul 2012

FGW (for 1) are quite good at holding connections so the passengers can get home even though it messes up the PPM figures, I have seen a Paddington train held at Exeter SD for 10 minutes to wait for a late running class 2 (a very full 153 that didnt like hills, the pull away from Ivybridge was "leisurely" to put it mildly) from Penzance to arrive.
Both trains then failed PPM but the passengers arrived a few minutes late instead of an hour. This was about 1700 on a Sunday so not last train or anything like that.

This is why I would like the whole thing changed to "passengers on time" rather than "trains on time".

I will wait at Weybridge for a late runner from Chertsey if I can see it coming around the corner, even if it means "having a chat" with the guard who has had the "right time at all costs" chip inserted.

Squaddie · 14 Jul 2012

455driver said:
At several (12 coach stations) I stop my 8 coach train at different places on the platform to stop everyone queueing up out the 1 door

455driver said:
I will wait at Weybridge for a late runner from Chertsey if I can see it coming around the corner, even if it means "having a chat" with the guard who has had the "right time at all costs" chip inserted.

Does a driver have the authority to make such decisions?

tbtc · 14 Jul 2012

455driver said:
I would like the whole thing changed to "passengers on time" rather than "trains on time"

Really good idea, why don't we do this already? We should.

John55 · 14 Jul 2012

tbtc said:
Really good idea, why don't we do this already? We should.

How could this be done?

455driver · 14 Jul 2012

Squaddie said:
Does a driver have the authority to make such decisions?

I do on my train as long as nobody finds out!

The trains I am on about are the 2Fxx (Woking stoppers) and they connect with the train from Chertsey which (if late) means the pax have a 29 minute wait for the up Basingstoke stopper (calling at Walton on Thames, Surbiton and Waterloo only) or the next up Woking stopper, there is no connection at Surbiton for the suburban stations.
Chertsey arrives xx07/ xx37
Up Woking leaves xx13/ xx43
Up Basing leaves xx06/ xx36

So my stoppers waits a minute or 2 every time it needs to.

The 2Fxx usually ends up catching the 2Oxx at New Malden or Raynes Park anyway and so runs under cautions to Wimbledon, by waiting that minute or 2 at Weybridge means I can run into Wimbledon on greens at line-speed and leave on time, no delay is recorded and no other trains effected but a lot of happy passengers that probably dont even realise we held the train for them in the first place and just think they were lucky.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

John55 said:
How could this be done?

Pretty much the same way its done now with estimates of how many passengers missed connections and how late they would be added in, I reckon the figures would be shocking which is why it isnt done.

There must be computer systems with all the relevant information on to get the ball rolling, in my case above any of us going past Exeter would have been an hour late, but because the train was held everyone was no more than 10 minutes late (I wont get into the other connections en route because none were missed anyway), Reading was only 3 minutes late and Paddington was only 2 minutes late, not exactly the end of the world and much better than some of us being 60 minutes late.

Morden Via CHX · 15 Jul 2012

455driver said:
At several (12 coach stations) I stop my 8 coach train at different places on the platform to stop everyone queueing up out the 1 door, across the platform to the exit, they all then queue back onto the train preventing the train moving.
By stopping at the wrong place it gives them room to get off and queue along the platform instead of on the train, we get going and everybody else gets home earlier.

A bloke asked why I did it so I told him and advised that when I am driving the peak hour ones to try a different door, a few weeks later and he is the first 1 out of the station with a thumbs up and a "cheers drive", made me smile.

This is actually class.

kieron · 15 Jul 2012

A-driver said:
I have seen numerous passengers complaining on twitter that their train is always 2 or 3 mins late and the driver never apologises but what can you say? 'Sorry we are late, this is due to waiting or people getting on off?!' Certainly dosnt help that most timetables allow the same amount of station dwelling time in the peak as they do off peak.

It sounds like a feeble excuse because it is one. If the TOC knows that the train running a service spends a couple of minutes at a station day after day, the timetable should show this. If there are more passengers than normal, or if the train is shorter than normal, then you can give that as a reason, but the fact that passengers use passenger trains goes no way to explaining why you can't keep to a timetable.

It would be nice if train staff were more willing to announce to passengers why a train is still sitting there once its departure time has come and gone, though.

455driver said:
Pretty much the same way its done now with estimates of how many passengers missed connections and how late they would be added in, I reckon the figures would be shocking which is why it isnt done.

Does anyone keep track of how many people change trains? I know the station statistics contain something about changes, but they're largely guesswork, and they don't pretend to reflect when people actually catch trains.

"Fewer than 70% of trains on time"

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